| --- Log opened Sat Jun 19 00:00:39 2010 |
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| 01:58 | < Alek> | so uh. |
| 01:59 | < Alek> | the series of memory in this PC has been declared EOL. |
| 01:59 | < Alek> | yet it's still available at a certain store. |
| 02:00 | < Alek> | should I bother filling out with the same item, even though it's EOL, or should I get a newer series, with same timings, for $40 more? (slower timings isn't really an option >_> ) |
| 02:03 | < Alek> | (and please don't ask why <_< ) |
| 02:04 | < celticminstrel> | EOL? |
| 02:05 | < celticminstrel> | End-of-line? |
| 02:10 | < Alek> | End of Life. |
| 02:10 | < Alek> | when they stop not just selling but supporting a product. |
| 02:10 | < Alek> | which includes warranties. |
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| 15:24 | < gnolam> | Ah, the versatility of modern computers. |
| 15:24 | <@jerith> | They can do the wrong thing in so very many different ways. |
| 15:25 | < gnolam> | I'm currently using my desktop PC to play music, transfer files, surf the web, crunch photos and... defrost meat. |
| 15:25 | < Orthia> | ...haha. |
| 15:25 | < Orthia> | On top of the case? |
| 15:30 | < gnolam> | Yep. |
| 15:31 | | * simon is trying to make a toggle button for switching keyboard layouts in his xmonad. |
| 15:31 | < simon> | someone on #xmonad suggested that I let X handle multiple keyboard layouts, but I thought it could be a fun exercise in defining a little toggling monad. |
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| 15:41 | < PinkFreud> | gnolam: you need better cooling. :) |
| 15:41 | < PinkFreud> | my dual opteron isn't exactly quiet, but I'm not going to be defrosting dinner on top of it anytime soon, either. :P |
| 15:45 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-5156718f.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 15:46 | | * Orthia ponders |
| 15:46 | < Orthia> | Hey, Vornicus |
| 15:46 | < Orthia> | I have an interesting question. |
| 15:47 | < Orthia> | http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/1zmxn9bhbb/Grav_Armor_Tables.pdf - why the heck do they have 'holes' in the distributions? Could you not get an approximation of the same probabilities with something a little more intuitive? |
| 15:52 | < gnolam> | PinkFreud: it doesn't run that hot, really. But the case has a giant (160 mm? 180 mm?) exhaust fan on the top of the case, covered by a grating. It's perfect for quick defrosting. :) |
| 15:57 | < PinkFreud> | :) |
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| 16:29 | <@Vornicus> | Orthia: well if you want to roll a d36, sure |
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| 16:36 | <@Vornicus> | in which case its the following or better, left to right: 36,35,34,33,32,31,30,29,27,25,23,21,19,17,15,13,11,9,7,5,2 |
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| 16:46 | <@Vornicus> | What it's actually doing here is approximating a single 36-sider by using a 2d6 table and some number-picking tricks. |
| 16:52 | < Orthia> | Oh, I see |
| 16:52 | < Orthia> | So it's trying to keep the probabilities relatively flat, instead of bellcurving them? |
| 16:57 | < PinkFreud> | ewwwwww. |
| 16:59 | < PinkFreud> | trying to find a hotel for dragoncon. I think that it's a good idea to stay away from any hotel whose best review is 'Positive: Homeless people around the area are generally friendly.' |
| 16:59 | < Orthia> | haha |
| 16:59 | < PinkFreud> | ... yeah, I think I'll pass. :) |
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| 17:20 | < Alek> | is there any way to set a video clip as wallpaper or screensaver in 7? |
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| 17:42 | <@Vornicus> | Also: you can, technically, make /most/ of those come from strictly contiguous acceptance zones on 2d6. Ones you can't are: 29,24,20,18,15,9,6 |
| 17:47 | < Orthia> | I presume these zones include things like "Five to seven" ? |
| 17:49 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah. |
| 17:50 | <@Vornicus> | On the other hand, "X to 12 except for Y" for one X and one Y >= 7 can give you every possible result. |
| 18:04 | < Orthia> | Huh. Is that what they were doing? |
| 18:05 | <@Vornicus> | Almost. |
| 18:05 | < Orthia> | Well, perhaps to rephrase |
| 18:05 | < Orthia> | Is that what they were /trying for/, just done clunkily? |
| 18:06 | <@Vornicus> | Well, it is what they did, but they missed for the +7. At least on the first table. |
| 18:08 | < Orthia> | Interesting. |
| 18:09 | < Orthia> | How far do they /diverge/ if you skip the 'except for Y' bit? |
| 18:09 | <@Vornicus> | Pretty badly, for some. |
| 18:10 | <@Vornicus> | Worst is +3. 20/36 with except for y, 26/36 without it. |
| 18:10 | < Orthia> | hm |
| 18:11 | < Orthia> | Bellcurving off to each side of that, yes? |
| 18:22 | <@Vornicus> | Well, not quite |
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| 18:22 | <@Vornicus> | The skip is more severe the lower the number. |
| 18:23 | <@Vornicus> | So the next worst is +1, then +4. |
| 18:23 | <@Vornicus> | Correcting the others: +7 should be 4 or better skip 6 (or 8, one of the two) |
| 18:26 | < Orthia> | Interesting. |
| 18:29 | < Orthia> | How wonky does it go if you use skip values /lower/ than 7? |
| 18:30 | <@Vornicus> | Not very. As I said - 4 or better, skip 6 (or 8) |
| 18:30 | < Orthia> | I realise it's going to be worse (You'll quite possibly get times when the skip value is already being skipped, f.ex), but I'm curious - and knowing that "higher than seven is good" tends to be psychologically useful. |
| 18:31 | <@Vornicus> | On the other hand if what you really want is X or higher /and/ Y (which would be smaller than X) you can do that too. |
| 18:33 | < Orthia> | hm. |
| 18:34 | <@Vornicus> | (it's merely the mirrored complement of the other) |
| 18:34 | < Orthia> | Does "skip values /lower/ than 7, but no lower than X [for obvious reasons]" fix the handful of worst offenders? |
| 18:34 | <@Vornicus> | I'm very confused as to what you're saying now. |
| 18:35 | < Orthia> | OK, "X to 12, skip Y [For Y > 7]" does the lot of them, yes? |
| 18:35 | <@Vornicus> | Yes. |
| 18:35 | < Orthia> | But means that you'll have for most bonuses, a case of "WOOHO I ROLLED A NINE wait fuck that's the hole isn't it" |
| 18:36 | < Orthia> | I was wondering how much was fixed/left broken if you could only make holes for "X to 17, skip Y [for Y < 7]". |
| 18:36 | <@Vornicus> | But for most of the possible results you have to skip something above 7 because there's nothing else /to/ skip. |
| 18:36 | < Orthia> | Precisely what I was wondering about. |
| 18:37 | <@Vornicus> | If you'd prefer a high number to automatically make you woohoo, do X to 12, and also Y (less than X). |
| 18:37 | < Orthia> | hm, that has merit. |
| 18:38 | < Orthia> | X or better, with a 'lucky shot' further down to tweak. |
| 18:38 | | * Orthia was pondering the system, and that it had some merits he was curious about investigating as a basis for a game. |
| 18:38 | < Orthia> | But the holes were bafflingly annoying, so. |
| 18:39 | <@Vornicus> | Which makes "36 or higher" 12, 35 12/2, 34 11, 33 11/2, 32 11/3, 31 10, 30 10/2, 29 10/3, 28 10/4, 27 9... |
| 18:40 | < Orthia> | hm. Cool. |
| 18:40 | < Orthia> | Cheers, vorn :) |
| 18:43 | <@Vornicus> | Now. If /I/ were designing a system like this, I'd say "fuckit" and break out the percentile dice. |
| 18:44 | <@Vornicus> | Would have precisely the same grain as this, clearly, but that's okay. |
| 18:45 | <@Vornicus> | Would not* |
| 18:59 | <@Vornicus> | (if you insisted on the same grain you could do base-6 percentile dice.) |
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| 19:17 | < simon> | are you making dice? |
| 19:18 | <@Vornicus> | no, he's trying to remodel a somewhat displeasing success-detecting system. |
| 19:18 | < simon> | I recently re-read Simon Tatham's article on dice without the number 7 on them. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/dice/ -- pretty cool :) |
| 19:18 | < simon> | ah |
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| 19:45 | < Tarinaky> | simon: I can honestly say that's a less elegant solution than just re-rolling the dice. :/ |
| 19:46 | < Tarinaky> | An interesting read on statistics sure. |
| 19:46 | < Tarinaky> | But the solution is worse than the problem. |
| 19:47 | < Tarinaky> | "Re-roll until you get a result you like" is only 'ugly' when you have two 7s in a row. |
| 19:47 | < Tarinaky> | Which will only occur 1/36 of the time. |
| 19:48 | < Tarinaky> | Rolling a 2 or a 12 on the first throw is twice as likely. |
| 19:48 | < Tarinaky> | In practice, playing the game, I can say that this is acceptably rare. |
| 19:52 | < Tarinaky> | >.> <.< >.> |
| 20:02 | <@jerith> | So, SmallTalk. |
| 20:02 | <@jerith> | I really don't much like this whole "image" idea. |
| 20:15 | | * Vornicus hunts around for a wiki with TeX-shaped formula support. |
| 20:16 | <@Vornicus> | Mediawiki obviously has it, but that involves setting up like 5000 other things. |
| 20:18 | <@jerith> | Very. |
| 20:25 | < simon> | Tarinaky, we clearly differ in opinion on what's elegant. being guaranteed against an unlikely infinite series of re-rolling is neat, I think. and redefining the interpretation of the sides of dice is very cool, too. mind you, his own practical experience did not say that the reason why they didn't use the dice was because they were too hard to interpret. |
| 20:25 | < Tarinaky> | simon: It's actually statistically impossible for the series to be infinite. |
| 20:26 | < Tarinaky> | simon: The probability of an infinite series is, in fact, zero. |
| 20:27 | <@Vornicus> | Gimme a d6 and a d5, and if you get 7 or more just add 1. :) |
| 20:27 | < Tarinaky> | (As the number of consecutive 7s tends towards infinity the probability tends towards zero. Not only that but the probability has an exponential decay.) |
| 20:27 | <@Vornicus> | (how do you get a d5? well, you take a d6 and you shave off the 6.) |
| 20:28 | < simon> | Vornicus, he uses a d10 for a d5 and avoids having to reroll :) |
| 20:28 | <@Vornicus> | That works too! |
| 20:28 | < Tarinaky> | When I read the article I was honestly explaining that his solution would involve re-rolling the C die on a 1. |
| 20:28 | < Tarinaky> | >.> |
| 20:28 | <@jerith> | But then you have to reroll on half the available values! |
| 20:29 | < Tarinaky> | *expecting |
| 20:29 | < simon> | Vornicus, he did this not because his renumbering was inelegant, but because of some statistical bad effects as the result of poorly weighted dice. |
| 20:29 | < Tarinaky> | Can't type - too much alcohol >.< |
| 20:29 | <@Vornicus> | jerith: or just mod 5 |
| 20:29 | < simon> | eliminating 7s from six-sided dice deserves status as a cool hack, IMO. |
| 20:30 | < simon> | Tarinaky, you have a point, but having to re-roll just once, twice or three times is inelegant when you can avoid it, right? |
| 20:30 | | * jerith doesn't have any six-sided dice with sevens on them. |
| 20:30 | < simon> | jerith, the sum of 2d6. |
| 20:30 | < simon> | I gotta go |
| 20:30 | < simon> | cheers |
| 20:31 | < Tarinaky> | simon: That's solved by the exponential decay in the probability. |
| 20:31 | < Tarinaky> | simon: The probability of 3x 7s in a row is 6^-1. That makes it rare enough for 'novelty value' to protect it. |
| 20:31 | | * jerith is being silly. |
| 20:31 | <@jerith> | (This is nothing remarkable.) |
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| 23:22 | < simon> | jerith, although you do have six-sided dice with sevens on them if you sum any two adjacent sides :) |
| 23:23 | <@jerith> | Not so. |
| 23:23 | <@jerith> | Opposite sides, perhaps. |
| 23:23 | <@McMartin> | Opposite. |
| 23:23 | < simon> | sorry |
| 23:24 | < simon> | right |
| 23:24 | <@McMartin> | Four sides are adjacent and they all have different values =) |
| 23:24 | | * simon and english right now |
| 23:24 | | * jerith needs to sleep. |
| 23:24 | <@jerith> | G'night all. |
| 23:24 | < simon> | night |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jun 20 00:00:40 2010 |