| --- Log opened Wed May 12 00:00:59 2010 |
| 00:22 | | Stryker [c0mand@Nightstar-bec1add2.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 00:22 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Payware I'm opposed to. It's the formal agreement to open source it that makes it okay |
| 00:24 | <@McMartin> | TF: It was Mandriva, I believe. |
| 00:25 | <@McMartin> | Or a close cousin thereof |
| 00:25 | <@McMartin> | Ubuntu has payware links too, but they're well-hidden enough that nobody ever uses them |
| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've never used Mandriva, but I might have stumbled across the Ubuntu ones at some point, since I use that at work. |
| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or found them in Mint, being ubuntu-based it might have them. |
| 00:30 | <@McMartin> | It used to autopop them for MP3 decoders, but hinting at the possible existence of licenses that are not GPL makes armies of flame warriors head for the fainting couch, so this no longer happens. |
| 00:31 | <@McMartin> | The fact that Mozilla used to pop a dialog box on first start reminding people that the MPL exists and applies was enough to start a major boycott operation |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mint generally hides all of that in favour of just working~ |
| 00:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I don't understand that aspect of licensing. I've always felt that licensing applied to the person doing the copy. Once you have yours you're intrinsically permitted to use it |
| 00:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | For instance, someone hands you a DVD movie. Do you need to sign a contract to put it in your DVD player? |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Rhamphoryncus: the license has implications for what you, as the end user, can do with things. Frex, the licenses for most commercial software forbid reverse engineering them. |
| 00:36 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ToxicFrog: yeah, my view might not match up with what the courts think :( |
| 00:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | What I'm saying is that either (a) you, the end user, are the person doing the copy, or |
| 00:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | (b) the distributor/publisher is the person doing the copy, but the license still applies to the user, since they're the one purchasing a license to use the software |
| 00:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I open up a website with some images on it. Does that automatically cause me to sign a contract? The status quo seems to be yes |
| 00:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Um? |
| 00:38 | < Rhamphoryncus> | IMO, the sane option is like b, but the user has the *option* of using the license. If I want to redistribute GPL'd software to someone else then I need to agree to it. Not before. |
| 00:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...but then you can't use anything, because the default is only the copyright holder can use the stuff |
| 00:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | When you buy stuff, you aren't buying a physical copy of the software (or perhaps you are, but that's not all you're buying) |
| 00:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're also buying permission from the copyright holder to copy and use this work they've created, provided certain conditions are met. |
| 00:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | With commercial software, those conditions typically include "you can't distribute your own copies" and "you can't take it apart to see how it works" |
| 00:40 | < Rhamphoryncus> | There's a term for one-directional licenses.. someone can promise something to me and be required to follow through on it, without me agreeing on anything. That would be the default state for copyrighted material |
| 00:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | But without that license, you have no legal standing to use the software, AIUI. |
| 00:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Stuff like the GPL is "you can use this software as you see fit; furthermore, you can redistribute it [which is not allowed by default!] provided the following conditions are met" |
| 00:41 | <@McMartin> | The usual trick in the US is to claim that copying it into RAM to run it counts as making a copy. |
| 00:41 | <@McMartin> | The courts have not, IIRC, been consistent on this. |
| 00:41 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 00:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | You seem to be arguing that the former part of that should be implicit and the default, and the latter you should only need to read and accept if you're actually planning to distribute |
| 00:41 | < Rhamphoryncus> | and pendants argue that looking at a book is copying it into the brain... |
| 00:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yes |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Rather than the current approach of getting it when you download in the form "if at some point you want to distribute, you must follow these conditions" |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | This approach you suggest seems much more error prone. |
| 00:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So, under current law am I signing a contract by watching a DVD or reading a book? |
| 00:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...no? |
| 00:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | How is that different? |
| 00:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Under current law, books at DVDs are (generally) copyrighted, and you cannot distribute your own copies. That's the default and is generally acceptable. |
| 00:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | In cases where it's not, you'll generally notice some sort of license agreement detailing what you can do! |
| 00:44 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So copying a DVD into ram is not considered to be a copy, but copying software into ram sometimes is? |
| 00:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Software is also, as a rule, copyrighted, but the defaults generally aren't sufficient; there's usually either additional restrictions (reverse engineering) or capabilities (copyleft) |
| 00:47 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Who's providing these defaults? The author or the law? |
| 00:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | The law. |
| 00:49 | | Orth [orthianz@Nightstar-c3d0cd68.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 00:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hrm |
| 00:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | so DVDs have defaults, software does not (and thus forces you to sign whatever contract the author provides)? |
| 00:50 | | Reiv[Graduate] [orthianz@Nightstar-e87c5251.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | DVDs and software have the same defaults. The problem is that the defaults for software tend to be too restrictive, if you're releasing FOSS stuff, or too lax, if you're releasing commercial stuff. |
| 00:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | s/defaults for software/for software, the defaults/ |
| 00:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | too lax? Are you saying I *don't* need to sign a contract to use commercial software? |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | In particular, for FOSS, the default is that no-one can copy it ever without your explicit permission; for commercial stuff, it's silent AFAIK on stuff like reverse engineering because that doesn't apply to most copyrightable works. |
| 00:53 | | Stryker [c0mand@Nightstar-bec1add2.dyn.optonline.net] has left #code [] |
| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | IIRC, the enforceability of EULAs has not yet been tested in court. |
| 00:55 | | Stryker [c0mand@Nightstar-bec1add2.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 00:55 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So hypothetically there might be some implied permissions for software (similar to DVD movies), but the status quo in the industry is to assume there's no implied permissions, and the courts haven't conclusively weighed in on the subject |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | The status quo is to assume that the implied permissions are the same as for any copyrighted work. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Those include "you can't copy it" (hence the GPL and MIT licenses) and "yeah, you can take it apart" (hence commercial EULAs) |
| 00:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Again that implies I don't need to agree to a EULA to use software someone provided to me |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Except they're only providing it to you on the condition you follow the EULA. |
| 00:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:58 | < Rhamphoryncus> | hmm lets see, the store has a box, I buy it.. does the store refuse to sell it if I don't read to and agree to the EULA? |
| 00:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, and I suspect that's where the legal challenges to them will finally come from |
| 00:58 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 00:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | The basic concept of "selling/giving a device/service/product/work to someone only if they agree to certain terms" is widely used and unambiguously allowable. |
| 00:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | That does clear up the contradiction for me. Thanks |
| 00:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Where the question will come is "is this agreement still binding if they see it before they use the product, but after they pay for it" |
| 01:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | IMO, I've already used the product by the time I open the box |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I disagree; I haven't used it until it's executing. |
| 01:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Of course they'll counter that the box contains several products. The box itself is different from the one on the DVD |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, I also think that to be binding the EULA has to be part of the purchase, not something tacked on afterwards. |
| 01:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | "executing" works in my favour too. To display the EULA they must first start executing. The same counter applies: the installer is different from the software it includes |
| 01:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | (and further argue that the archives used by the installer are not covered by any implied license to run the installer) |
| 01:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | ah, I've been called off to fight with OO calc again. Afk for a few |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | AFAIR, most EULAs are written so that it's the installation and use of the program - not opening the box or running the installer - that's contingent on your agreement. Basically "do not click Install unless you have read and agree to these terms". |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Objections will come from the fact that in most cases, you see that before the program installs, but after you've paid money for it. |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | And most places will not allow you to return it. |
| 01:08 | | * Alek could cry. |
| 01:08 | < Alek> | lately, the subscene is of AWFUL quality. |
| 01:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:09 | < Alek> | like they take the script, feed it through a translator to make foreign-language subs, and feed those through another translator to make english subs. >_< |
| 01:09 | < Alek> | or they use a poorly adjusted voice-to-text program. D: |
| 01:10 | < Alek> | in an aside, HOW have they not made a patch to fix the Bioshock crashy problems YET? |
| 01:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bioshock crashy problems? |
| 01:17 | | Stryker [c0mand@Nightstar-bec1add2.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: IRcap 8.6 ] |
| 01:19 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:23 | <@McMartin> | TF: Note that this is also why you occasionally hear people claiming that games will all be MMOs in the future so that usage of the game is unambiguously in the model you describe as unambiguously allowable |
| 01:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would argue that "you get the EULA before you pay" is also unambiguously allowable, and digital distribution makes that easy. |
| 01:47 | < Namegduf> | That sounds disturbing and probably right. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Why is it disturbing? |
| 01:57 | < Namegduf> | You're fond of a model where every user of a piece of software is legally bound to whatever conditions the authors feel like, they have absolutely no ability to negotiate the contract, and these restrictions already heavily curtail what someone can do on their own computer? |
| 01:57 | < Namegduf> | EULAs are already bad. If they're found and treated as totally binding, I don't see them getting any better. |
| 01:59 | < Namegduf> | I personally dislike them largely because they're a run around of copyright, to get more exclusive permissions than copyright actually grants by requiring people to agree to restrictions to receive/use a copy of the software, but there's more than ideological issues here. |
| 01:59 | < Namegduf> | Patching and modding of software being illegal quite sucks. |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | I agree, on the "use" part |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | I have no particular problem with restrictions on receipt or redist - I can't and remain consistent with liking the GPL for some purposes |
| 02:08 | < Namegduf> | "redist" is a totally different matter. |
| 02:08 | < Namegduf> | I can agree with restrictions on that. |
| 02:08 | < Namegduf> | Copyright law grants you control of that, and thus you are granting them permission as permitted by it. |
| 02:08 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. I file receipt as more like redist than use; "I will license you X under Y if Z" "I do not agree to Z" "OK, no sale" seems fundamentally OK to me |
| 02:08 | < Namegduf> | Copyright law does not, however, give you the ability to dictate the terms under which someone can *receive* something. |
| 02:09 | < Namegduf> | Except by makign them agree to a contract first. |
| 02:09 | <@McMartin> | Which isn't copyright (unless the recipient is getting it from somewhere without redist rights) |
| 02:09 | <@McMartin> | (in which case, I agree that the issue is not with the recipient by default) |
| 02:10 | <@McMartin> | Also, reminder that efficient breach exists |
| 02:10 | <@McMartin> | (I think that's the word) |
| 02:11 | < Namegduf> | I am largely of the opinion that restricting what someone does with data on their system, none of which leaves it, and in general restricting what they do with their property that doesn't affect anyone else |
| 02:11 | < Namegduf> | Is bad |
| 02:12 | < Namegduf> | And that forcing people to agree to contracts doing so before they receive something, without the ability to negotiate the contract or any real effective bargaining power, is not a nice thing to be common. |
| 02:12 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, there's a very fuzzy notion of what counts as "their property" there, and it runs smack into things that people would like to take for granted by analogy with more cumbersome delivery systems |
| 02:12 | < Namegduf> | My property is my computer. |
| 02:13 | < Namegduf> | I should be able to do whatever I like with it if it doesn't affect yours. |
| 02:13 | < Namegduf> | Hmm. I think I can put this more clearly. |
| 02:13 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, there's a definite danger in this region of running into issues where your property is also any computer you connect to, or in treating all blocks of data as being of equivalent value - that is, that content is necessarily valueless |
| 02:13 | <@McMartin> | You're not falling into that trap here, I hasten to add |
| 02:13 | < Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 02:13 | < Namegduf> | I totally understand agreements before using anyone's external services. |
| 02:14 | < Namegduf> | MMOs in particular having "don't connect to us with modified software" is quite reasonable. |
| 02:14 | <@McMartin> | Right, but that's also out of scope, because that's not a EULA - it's a ToS |
| 02:15 | < Namegduf> | Restrictions on use, enforced via a contract you're forced to sign before they will exercise their permission to redistribute, feel to me a bit like restrictions on what foods you can eat, enforced via a contract you're forced to sign before they'll exercise their right to redistribute. |
| 02:15 | <@McMartin> | Hm. That's a fuzzier line for me. |
| 02:15 | < Namegduf> | They're restricting something totally unrelated to copyright, and that the law grants no control over, by contract. |
| 02:16 | < Namegduf> | I don't dispute they can legally require whatever contract they like for distribution, but doing it on a mass scale with no ability to negotiate, and just adding whatever restrictions they feel they want, doesn't seem... good. |
| 02:16 | <@McMartin> | Like, what you're saying is not entirely unlike "I will sell you this software for $SMALL if you agree to endorse it in a television commercial" |
| 02:16 | <@McMartin> | Er, I was slow there |
| 02:16 | <@McMartin> | That modifies the "like food" one |
| 02:17 | < Namegduf> | That is analogous, but seems fair, because both sides are actually negotiating. |
| 02:17 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, like I said, I was late with the comment =) |
| 02:18 | <@McMartin> | As it is, sufficiently unfair contracts can be voided/declared unenforcable by the courts, which is a rather crude form of negotiation |
| 02:18 | <@McMartin> | That's true for all contracts though. |
| 02:19 | <@McMartin> | I agree that sufficiently obnoxious restrictions are bad, but I can also see where various third parties would have defensible interests in pushing them. |
| 02:19 | < Namegduf> | Yeah. That could hamper EULAs in the form they're in today. If the courts are sufficiently savvy. |
| 02:19 | <@McMartin> | Er, in pushing the specific ones you object to |
| 02:19 | < Namegduf> | Hmm, "defensible interests"? |
| 02:19 | <@McMartin> | So, if I did a total conversion of Mirror's Edge, even if DICE were thrilled about this, Unreal Technologies would probably have Opinions. |
| 02:20 | < Namegduf> | I was going to say that I didn't care whether someone might have an "interest" in controlling what I did with my property, I still didn't like it, but then I thought "defensible" might restrict this in a way I should see. |
| 02:20 | <@McMartin> | If they could show that what I was really doing was trying to skirt around actually contracting with them for their SDK, they could probably have a colorable case of some kind. |
| 02:21 | <@McMartin> | I can't get permission from DICE to use Unreal's SDK, basically. |
| 02:21 | < Namegduf> | Hmm. But you're not using their Software Development Kit. |
| 02:21 | <@McMartin> | Now, if this works out so that Unreal still gets paid, it could be decided against Unreal |
| 02:21 | <@McMartin> | Right, but my result is basically an Unreal Engine Game. |
| 02:21 | <@McMartin> | I'm not saying they'd be in the right |
| 02:22 | <@McMartin> | I'm saying that I wouldn't expect a judge to laugh either side's claim out of court |
| 02:22 | < Namegduf> | I think they'd be outright wrong- but you might have issues distributing because what you've done COULD be considered a derivative work. |
| 02:22 | < Namegduf> | Of the Unreal Engine. |
| 02:23 | < Namegduf> | Unless that's what you were roughly meaning by "Use of their SDK" |
| 02:23 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, that was roughly what I meant. |
| 02:23 | <@McMartin> | And if your distribution method was "buy another UE game and replace these data files with these", and one such already-derived work was Officially OK With This, that would make it even murkier |
| 02:24 | < Namegduf> | That's a pain. |
| 02:24 | <@McMartin> | The murky bit there is that them being Officially OK With It may not fully matter because they aren't the real party. |
| 02:24 | <@McMartin> | Anyway, that's what I meant by "defensible" |
| 02:24 | < Namegduf> | In my view, copyright law already provides what restrictions they should have, mostly, although it needs better patches to work with computers properly. |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | I completely agree that it needs some debugging/extension modules. |
| 02:25 | <@McMartin> | I'm not really in the radical reinvention/repeal camps, though. |
| 02:25 | < Namegduf> | (Restricting "copying" doesn't really work for data without a lot more detail and clarification; courts are enforcing it sanely, though) |
| 02:25 | < Namegduf> | (As opposed to redistribution) |
| 02:26 | < Namegduf> | I'm not, either. |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | Redist has a *couple* of wacky wrinkles, too |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | All enforcement of it has been sane, but GPL3 added a bunch of language to cover cases of 'redistribution' that don't count - like getting it via BitTorrent without being a total leech |
| 02:27 | < Namegduf> | Ew. |
| 02:27 | <@McMartin> | Participating in a P2P swarm in GPL3 is more like downloading than like distribution, while setting up the torrent tracker is like distributing. |
| 02:27 | <@McMartin> | This is basically the Only Sane Way To Treat It, so yeah. |
| 02:28 | <@McMartin> | And I cannot imagine any GPL2-based challenge that involved attacking someone who seeded a torrent ever succeeding. |
| 02:28 | < Namegduf> | Hmm, I see that being an issue. |
| 02:29 | < Namegduf> | And the response is sane. |
| 02:29 | < Namegduf> | You can't sanely require someone to distribute source with the binaries in BT |
| 02:29 | <@McMartin> | IIRC, what you do as a BT peer is mere "conveyance". |
| 02:30 | | * PinkFreud pokes Xen and Debian with a sharp stick. |
| 02:30 | <@McMartin> | If you mail-order GPLed binaries on CD, you don't get to hit up the post office for the source, either. |
| 02:30 | < Namegduf> | PinkFreud: Trouble? |
| 02:31 | < PinkFreud> | yeah. Xen packages in Squeeze are a bit funky. The binary packages behave one way, but when I recompile them from the source packages, they behave completely different. |
| 02:31 | < PinkFreud> | I'm beginning to suspect the source packages debian is providing for Xen are not the ones that their binaries are compiled from. |
| 02:31 | < Namegduf> | Huh. |
| 02:32 | < PinkFreud> | huh indeed. |
| 02:32 | < Namegduf> | McMartin: That makes sense. |
| 02:33 | < PinkFreud> | Debian's Xen 3.4 packages in Squeeze are missing qemu-dm, apparently due to an upstream change. This is fine - the binary packages, when installed in squeeze, boot a PV domU just fine. |
| 02:33 | < PinkFreud> | when recompiled, they fail to produce a working domU (dom0 works), due to the packages defaulting to ioemu, and the domU failing to start when Xen realizes qemu-dm is nowhere to be found. |
| 02:34 | < PinkFreud> | This is clearly not consistent behavior. |
| 02:35 | < Namegduf> | Sounds at least a little broken, maybe their build is configured wrong or something. |
| 02:35 | < PinkFreud> | makes me wonder, though - the source package they provide should be exactly what was used to build their binary packages. |
| 02:35 | < PinkFreud> | I'm not seeing this to be the case. |
| 02:36 | <@McMartin> | They could be building it in a bizarre environment |
| 02:36 | < Namegduf> | That could be it; some part of the env not properly specified in it. |
| 02:37 | < PinkFreud> | hmmm |
| 02:39 | <@McMartin> | Though it's also distressingly common for things to get postprocessed after a make as part of packaging, too. |
| 02:40 | <@McMartin> | (This is basically mandatory for Mac stuff >_<) |
| 02:40 | <@McMartin> | (Such vast and uncompromising hatred for install_name_tool and its necessity) |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | XD |
| 02:46 | < Alek> | speaking of Xen, anyone know what happened to Black Mesa Source? |
| 02:47 | <@McMartin> | Not sure, but Counterstrike Source appears to be in limited beta now - it's on the Steam main page |
| 02:47 | < Namegduf> | A new CS:S? |
| 02:48 | <@McMartin> | I guess? I don't follow CS at all so I don't know what this project is or how it compares to the original CS:S |
| 02:48 | | celticminstrel [celticminstre@Nightstar-f8b608eb.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| 02:52 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Z?] |
| 03:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...hasn't Counterstrike Source been GA for years? |
| 03:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, BMS is still under active but slow development. |
| 03:28 | <@Vornicus> | COulda fooled me. Their twitter is dead, their forum is almost dead... |
| 03:29 | | * McMartin eyes the fuck out of this process trace. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | NTSTATUS_CANT_TERMINATE_SELF |
| 03:29 | | * McMartin lowers that driver into a vat of molten metal |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | "Available immediately, Valve has launched an extensive update to Counter-Strike: Source, now in beta." |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | So I guess it's some revision? |
| 03:30 | < celticminstrel> | BMS? |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | Black Mesa: Source |
| 03:30 | <@Vornicus> | A fan remake of Half-Life in the Source engine. |
| 03:31 | <@Vornicus> | Seeing as Half-Life: Source was pretty much a port. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm guessing that "beta" modifies "extensive update", not "counter-strike source" |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Given that I've been playing CSS for five years now. |
| 03:40 | | * Orth laughs |
| 03:40 | < Orth> | You know, I actually got CS:S on a CD as a freebie when I bought a graphics card a number of years back. |
| 03:41 | < Orth> | I refused to install it though, because I didn't trust the Filthy DRM System... known as Steam~ |
| 03:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hee |
| 03:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was sold on Steam sometime in 2003 when I left my HL1 discs, but not my CD keys, in another city |
| 03:50 | <@Vornicus> | I was sold on Steam in a very similar situation! |
| 03:51 | <@Vornicus> | (and indeed it was with HL1) |
| 03:51 | <@Vornicus> | (but the disc was with me -- just, ded) |
| 03:52 | < Namegduf> | I was sold on Steam when I found digital distribution convenient and the conditions for its use reasonable. |
| 03:55 | <@Vornicus> | So I downloaded Steam, typed in the cd key, and it said "this looks like a Half-Life CD key! WOuld you like to start the download now?" |
| 03:55 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has left #code ["Leaving"] |
| 03:56 | <@Vornicus> | and about 20 minutes later, I was being told that they were waiting for me... in the test chamber. |
| 03:56 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 03:56 | | mode/#code [+o ToxicFrog] by Reiver |
| 03:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | P. much the same for me |
| 03:57 | <@Vornicus> | and about 20 minutes later, I was being told that they were waiting for me... in the test chamber. <--- including that? |
| 03:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | It wasn't that fast, this being 2003 and resnet |
| 03:57 | <@Vornicus> | well, okay. |
| 03:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | But that evening, yes. |
| 04:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, kitty just renamed a terminal tab to "11111111111111111111111111111ccc1cccccccccccccccccccccccc22222222222y1111111111 1111111y11111111yy1y1yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy |
| 04:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyycccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc |
| 04:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc 22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 22222222222222222222222222222222222222 |
| 04:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | 22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222 22222222222222222222 hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhh hh hh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh y33333333333333333333333333" |
| 04:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh jesus I didn't realize it was that long |
| 04:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm sorry |
| 04:03 | <@Derakon> | ...that was intentional? |
| 04:03 | <@Derakon> | Oh, so it was. |
| 04:04 | < celticminstrel> | ... |
| 04:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought it was like one line! |
| 04:06 | <@Vornicus> | Silly Kitty. |
| 04:07 | <@McMartin> | \o/ |
| 04:07 | < Namegduf> | XD |
| 04:08 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, Steam is more or less the poster child for DRM that actually Ms some actual Rs. |
| 04:25 | <@Derakon> | Ah, that's what's slowing my map editor down so much. |
| 04:25 | <@Derakon> | Funny how writing a temporary save file every time you make a change to the map causes changes to take longer to execute. |
| 04:25 | <@Derakon> | Takes about .35s to write 16k lines~ |
| 04:30 | <@Vornicus> | Heh. Do it via diff. |
| 04:34 | <@Derakon> | Eh, doing a save on every change is silly anyway. |
| 04:34 | <@Derakon> | A save every minute or so would be fine, though. |
| 04:35 | <@Derakon> | But what I'm more interested in right now is figuring out a good approach to a scenery editor (for placing background elements in the map). |
| 04:51 | | * Derakon eyes his code. |
| 04:51 | <@Derakon> | Why the hell am I defining two classes with the same name in this file? |
| 04:51 | <@Derakon> | More importantly, why is it working? |
| 04:51 | <@McMartin> | You never use the first one? |
| 04:51 | <@McMartin> | Duck typing? |
| 04:51 | <@Derakon> | I use both. |
| 04:52 | <@Derakon> | They have different constructor signatures...can Python differentiate based just on that? |
| 04:53 | | * Derakon replaces BlockUIElement with BlockChooserUIElement and MapPickerUIElement. |
| 04:55 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
| 04:57 | <@McMartin> | I wonder if it instead took the second class as "add these methods to the same namespace" |
| 04:57 | <@McMartin> | Alternately |
| 04:57 | <@McMartin> | define a class, use it, define next class, use that |
| 04:57 | <@McMartin> | definitions are evaluated and compiled in order |
| 04:58 | <@Derakon> | There are three classes, the latter two of which share the same name. The first one uses the second two, in the same function even. |
| 04:59 | <@Derakon> | The latter two functions are also both implementations of an interface, so they don't have any unique function names. |
| 05:00 | <@McMartin> | Are you catching KeyError or NoSuchMethodError or doing the Pokemon Exception Technique? |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | Exceptions would go all the way up to the main loop and blackscreen the game. |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | (Blackscreen: I shut everything down, show the error message for a bit, then exit the program) |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | What's the Pokémon Exception Technique? |
| 05:01 | <@McMartin> | Gotta Catch Em All (tm) |
| 05:01 | | * Derakon faceplams. |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | Er. Palms. |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | I save the plamming for really violent episodes. |
| 05:03 | | * McMartin shuts down the kernel debugger, prepares to head hone. |
| 05:03 | <@McMartin> | *home. |
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| 06:00 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher[zZzZ]] by Reiver |
| 06:00 | <@Derakon> | Hokay, background scenery is almost added to the map editor. |
| 06:01 | <@Derakon> | The picker is screwy and it crashes if you try to switch scenery types, but other than that it seems to be working~ |
| 06:02 | | * Derakon has a frozen cookie to celebrate. |
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| 06:34 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 09:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 12:01 | | ServerMode/#code [+ooooooq ToxicFrog AnnoDomini Kazriko jerith McMartin Reiver Reiver] by *.Nightstar.Net |
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| 14:48 | | * ToxicFrog flails |
| 14:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | emacs has the capabilities I want, but the UI is a bucket of wtf. |
| 14:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | And everything that has a decent UI seems to be missing key capabilities. |
| 14:49 | < Tarinaky> | I thought there were plenty of OSes that matched emacs for functionality? |
| 14:49 | | * Tarinaky hides under a rock. |
| 14:49 | | * ToxicFrog thwaps Tarinaky with the rock |
| 14:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | As an editor, smartass. |
| 14:49 | < celticminstrel> | Are you saying you count Emacs as an OS? |
| 14:50 | < Tarinaky> | celticminstrel: It's a joke older than I am. |
| 14:50 | < celticminstrel> | Pretty sure I've never hear it... |
| 14:50 | < Tarinaky> | "emacs: decent OS but needs a better text editor." |
| 14:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | "Emacs is a decent OS, all it's missing is a good text editor" |
| 14:50 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
| 15:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | But yeah, there seems to be a lack of decent IDEs for linux (or in general, really). |
| 15:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | NEdit has the best syntax hilighting I've ever used, hands down, but is missing features like semantic analysis or unicode support. |
| 15:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | JEdit is good as far as it goes, but kind of rigid. |
| 15:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | emacs can do anything but requires hours of tuning and troubleshooting. |
| 15:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Code::Blocks is entirely incapable of handling anything that doesn't meet its preconcieved notions of what a project is. |
| 15:26 | < celticminstrel> | ...whoa, what? |
| 15:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | What? |
| 15:32 | < Tarinaky> | Geany is okay. |
| 15:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Alright let's give that a try |
| 15:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | First impressions: general concept looks like what I'm looking for, python semantic analysis is broken, where do I configure syntax hilighting? |
| 15:40 | < Tarinaky> | Document - > Set Filetype |
| 15:41 | < Tarinaky> | It attempts to set it automatically from the file extension. |
| 15:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Er, no |
| 15:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | How do I configure the lexeme table and hilighting colours |
| 15:42 | < Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 15:42 | < Tarinaky> | I think you have to manually edit the files they're stored in. |
| 15:43 | < Tarinaky> | /usr/share/geany/filetypes.EXTENSION |
| 15:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Found them. Looks like it uses Scintilla as the hilighting library. Fuck. |
| 15:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, so much for geany. |
| 15:45 | < Tarinaky> | Scintilla bad? |
| 15:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Scintilla only lets you customize colours and keyword lists. |
| 15:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | if it gets the hilighting wrong - and it will - or you want to add support for a new language, here's what you need to do: |
| 15:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | (a) write a lexer for that language in C++ using the scintilla API |
| 15:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | (b) recompile the entire editor |
| 15:47 | < celticminstrel> | What's Code::Blocks's preconceived notion of a project that it can't get past? |
| 15:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | That everything uses a Makefile in the root directory of the project with no special environment wackiness. |
| 15:49 | < celticminstrel> | ...wait, it relies on makefiles? |
| 15:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, or its own dependency resolver |
| 15:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Basically, your options are "use your builtin build system" or "I have a custom makefile" |
| 15:49 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 15:49 | < Tarinaky> | I thought Makefiles were the generic import/export format for projects... :/ |
| 15:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | The former fails comically on the codebase I'm working on, since it's an embedded OS that uses a custom version of gcc, an assembler, and some in house tools to build. |
| 15:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | The latter fails comically because it needs a bunch of custom environment setup and bash-dependent features, which it breaks by trying to run everything in sh and, AFAICT, randomly fucking with my environment variables before invoking make. |
| 15:51 | < celticminstrel> | What? sh is not a symlink to bash? |
| 15:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | sh is a symlink to bash that runs bash in sh-compatible mode |
| 15:54 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. Does this mean that symlinks can specify command-line parameters for the file they point to, if it's a program? |
| 15:54 | < celticminstrel> | (And I can see how that could be a problem.) |
| 15:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | No. But the program is aware of what it was called as. |
| 15:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | bash, on startup, checks to see whether it was called as 'bash' or 'sh', and behaves accordingly. |
| 15:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: they're a import/export format for projects. Most IDEs have their own format, but makefiles tend to be well-understood everywhere. |
| 16:03 | < celticminstrel> | That would've been my next guess. |
| 16:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. Geany would actually be perfect, once I beat the colour scheme into submission, if scintilla weren't stupid about syntax hilighting. |
| 16:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I once toyed with the idea of porting the nedit hilighter to scintilla; however, the scintilla API isn't powerful enough, and while NEdit's is a joy to use, under the covers it is an abomination) |
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| 17:34 | | * jerith has just beaten the newest Aquamacs into submission. |
| 17:35 | < celticminstrel> | You've done what now? |
| 17:35 | <@jerith> | Aquamacs. |
| 17:36 | <@jerith> | The most recent release is based on Emacs 23, which is awesome. |
| 17:36 | <@jerith> | Except they made some more "macification" changes. |
| 17:36 | <@jerith> | So I had to track them down and turn them off. |
| 17:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've just discovered Senator and am trying to get it to work with languages that aren't C/++. |
| 17:37 | <@jerith> | The nastiest was "ns-use-mac-modifier-symbols", which turns "C-x" into "^X" all over the bloody place. |
| 17:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: do you have any recommended modules/settings for using emacs for editing large C/++ and Lua projects? |
| 17:45 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: I don't. |
| 17:46 | <@jerith> | Except the general "learn the hell out of the editor". |
| 17:46 | <@jerith> | (Which I've been much too lazy at myself.) |
| 17:47 | | * ToxicFrog tells Senator to symref global-set-key and it goes away and doesn't come back :/ |
| 17:48 | <@jerith> | What's Senator? |
| 17:48 | <@jerith> | All I can find is political stuff. |
| 17:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Part of CEDET. |
| 17:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | It hooks into Semantic, the semantic analyzer, to provide features like call-completion, find-def, find-refs, etc |
| 17:50 | <@jerith> | Hrm. |
| 17:51 | | * jerith has written a truly revolting function today. |
| 17:52 | <@jerith> | It munges the SQL generated by mysqldump into something that sqlite can use. |
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| 17:59 | | * TheWatcher readsup, heartily recommends ECB for larger projects |
| 18:00 | <@TheWatcher> | (the only downside to ECB is that it is insanely configurable...) |
| 18:00 | <@jerith> | (Kind of like Emacs...) |
| 18:06 | <@jerith> | TheWatcher: I shall investigate further at some point. Right now, I need to leave the office and find supper somewhere. |
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| 18:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: I've been noodling around with ecb, yeah. It's pretty cool. |
| 18:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | At the moment I'm stuck on teaching CEDET what the project I'm working on consists of. |
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| 20:25 | < Alek> | meh. |
| 20:26 | < Alek> | are there any hardware staples that are ethernet-cable-safe? |
| 20:55 | | * McMartin reads backscroll. "I have yet to find any decent Lua modes for Emacs; this is one reason I stuck to NP++." |
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| 21:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | NP++ is (a) windows only and (b) based on Scintilla, and thus useless to me. |
| 21:00 | < Alek> | NoteTab is also nice. |
| 21:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have found a decent lua-mode for emacs, but it doesn't seem to talk to Senator - so I get the usual formatting and hilighting features and whatnot (certainly better than Scintilla's), but I can't use symbol-completion or find-callers or the like. |
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| 21:02 | < Alek> | NoteTab cannot run directly on a Mac or Linux, nor are we planning Mac or Linux versions. However, NoteTab does run on a Mac and on Linux using Wine. Alternatively, Macs can run Windows using BootCamp which is part of the Mac OS, or using Parallels, or an emulator such as Virtual PC, allowing NoteTab to be run. |
| 21:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | NoteTab is commercial, so it's out, and working in wine is a pain. |
| 21:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's fine for games, it's less fine for stuff where I need to interact with the rest of the system. |
| 21:24 | < Alek> | NoteTab Lite is free, if a little low on the features. :/ |
| 21:24 | < Alek> | but oh well. |
| 21:27 | | * ToxicFrog pokes Kate with a stick |
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| 21:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | So many of these editors say "you can use regexes, but they're really slow, so use <list of poorly thought out features> instead if at all possible" |
| 21:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which really makes me wonder; NEdit doesn't support anything but regexes and has been running fine for at least a decade. |
| 21:28 | < celticminstrel> | Regex works quite well for me in TextWrangler. Of course, that's a Mac program. |
| 21:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Are they testing it on really slow machines? Do they have a really awful regex implementation for syntax hilighting? Are they just talking out of their asses? |
| 21:30 | < celticminstrel> | Hm? |
| 21:31 | < celticminstrel> | Are you asking me about TextWrangler? |
| 21:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | No? |
| 21:31 | < celticminstrel> | Oh, okay then. |
| 21:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Like I said, I'm wondering why so many syntax-hilighting editors have documentation that warns against using regexes in hilighting rules for performance reasons. |
| 21:32 | < celticminstrel> | No idea. |
| 21:33 | < celticminstrel> | I know TextWrangler supports regex-based syntax highlighting, though I don't think it uses it for most languages. And I don't recall seeing any warning against using it due to poor performance. |
| 21:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | And also, nothing has a fucking built in editor for syntax hilighting rules! |
| 21:36 | | * ToxicFrog froths for a bit |
| 21:36 | < celticminstrel> | That would be nice, yes... |
| 21:36 | < celticminstrel> | I wish I could tell XCode not to indent my case labels. <_< |
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| 21:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | NEdit was fantastic for this, it is the standard for syntax hilighting that I compare all other editors to, and so far only emacs and scintilla have bettered it for capability and nothing has topped the UI. |
| 21:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | And NEdit's UI wasn't all that great, so read this as the scathing indictment of editors that it is. |
| 21:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | The problem is that NEdit was sorely lacking in many other respects. |
| 21:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | And hasn't been under active development since like 2005. |
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| 21:58 | | mode/#code [+o Derakon] by Reiver |
| 21:58 | <@Derakon> | Gotta love it when a program works the first time you try it on live data. :) |
| 22:00 | <@TheWatcher> | \o/ |
| 22:00 | <@McMartin> | Hey Derakon, Mac Portal is free right now |
| 22:01 | <@Derakon> | I saw! |
| 22:01 | <@Derakon> | Waiting until I get home. |
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| 22:02 | <@McMartin> | Also, a bunch of other steam games have Mac versions, and most are package deals where if you ever bought the Windows version you get the Mac one to go with |
| 22:02 | <@McMartin> | McMartin is well pleased |
| 22:02 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, once I heard that Steam was coming to OSX I knew my gaming plate would be full for the forseeable future. |
| 22:02 | <@McMartin> | Meanwhile, my traveling game list has just dramatically increased |
| 22:03 | <@Derakon> | Ah, Mac laptop? |
| 22:04 | <@Derakon> | Oh, by the way: http://i45.tinypic.com/20su9tf.png |
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| 22:07 | <@McMartin> | Yes |
| 22:07 | <@McMartin> | Also, that is horrifying |
| 22:13 | | * Derakon eyes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_bumping |
| 22:13 | <@Derakon> | This could be a problem. |
| 22:13 | <@Derakon> | (Short version: modify a standard door keep, and you can use it to open most deadbolt locks) |
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| 22:32 | < celticminstrel> | Wait, what? Mac Portal? |
| 22:32 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 22:32 | < celticminstrel> | Is that like Portal for the Mac? |
| 22:32 | <@McMartin> | Also, Mac Steam generally, and a large pile of package deals of the form "if you ever bought this for windows you now own it for Mac" |
| 22:33 | < celticminstrel> | And did you seriously say Portal is free? |
| 22:33 | <@Derakon> | Until the 24th, yeah. |
| 22:33 | <@McMartin> | Yes, until May 24th. |
| 22:33 | <@McMartin> | store.steampowered.com/freeportal/ |
| 22:33 | <@McMartin> | (note: site is being hammered for SOME STRANGE REASON) |
| 22:34 | < celticminstrel> | So, like, I can go there and download a fill version for free? |
| 22:34 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 22:34 | <@McMartin> | Well |
| 22:34 | < celticminstrel> | And it won't expire or anything? |
| 22:34 | <@McMartin> | You can go there, download steam, and push a button and have it autolicense you a copy of Portal. |
| 22:34 | <@McMartin> | There is no indication that this is the case. |
| 22:34 | <@McMartin> | Such a thing is "free play during timespan XXX" |
| 22:34 | <@McMartin> | Which Steam also does, but it doesn't sound like this is that. |
| 22:35 | <@Derakon> | They'd get nailed for false advertising if it were. |
| 22:35 | <@McMartin> | It says "Free until May 24th"~ |
| 22:35 | < celticminstrel> | Portal is one game that I'd quite like to try. |
| 22:35 | <@McMartin> | But yeah, the Steam client has timed activation support in it and it's very clear that it's doing it when it does |
| 22:35 | <@McMartin> | (Free TF2 weekends, etc) |
| 22:35 | < celticminstrel> | No strings attached? |
| 22:35 | <@McMartin> | Steam is a DRM system, which is a string. |
| 22:36 | <@McMartin> | However, it's a real DRM system, that Ms your DRs, so the tension goes both ways. |
| 22:36 | <@McMartin> | Which is to say, once you do this, you then get the ability to download and play Portal whenever you authenticate to the Steam servers on any machine. |
| 22:37 | < celticminstrel> | Well, I guess it's worth it. |
| 22:37 | <@McMartin> | I believe the other string is that this is a mask for them doing an open beta of the Mac port of the Source engine, of which Portal is the most complex game written in it. |
| 22:37 | <@McMartin> | Steam is pretty much the model for Good DRM. |
| 22:37 | < celticminstrel> | Good DRM? |
| 22:37 | <@McMartin> | As in "not evil" |
| 22:37 | <@McMartin> | Steam's model is that you purchase your licenses to various games |
| 22:37 | < celticminstrel> | As in "the closest you can get to the opposite of UbiSoft without giving up DRM"? |
| 22:38 | <@McMartin> | As in "there is an actual value proposition to the user bound up in the DRM model" |
| 22:38 | <@McMartin> | This value proposition being that you can authenticate on any machine with a net connection and get access to your games, a trick that generally doesn't work with your standard store-bought discs. |
| 22:39 | <@McMartin> | The flip side is that you have to authenticate to get access to them to play, but you can authenticate, then put it in offline mode, and retain access to them[*] |
| 22:39 | < celticminstrel> | Well, that's nice. |
| 22:39 | <@McMartin> | [* obviously, this doesn't work for games that also use Steam as a battle.net substitute] |
| 22:40 | <@McMartin> | TF2 you can't play in offline mode, because it is a, you know, online game |
| 22:40 | < celticminstrel> | Well, that makes sense. |
| 22:41 | <@McMartin> | If you're actually a regular customer in the PC gaming field, Steam is also handy for regularly holding completely absurd sales |
| 22:41 | < Namegduf> | Complaining about Steam is just stupid, in my view. |
| 22:41 | <@McMartin> | Last weekend Civ IV plus all expansion packs was ten bucks |
| 22:41 | < Namegduf> | You have two DRM systems. |
| 22:41 | < Namegduf> | One requires you to have a physical disk with you. |
| 22:41 | < Namegduf> | The other requires an Internet connection. |
| 22:41 | < celticminstrel> | I'm not really a regular customer. The only non-ancient games I have ever bought are the first Avernum trilogy. |
| 22:41 | < Namegduf> | And unlike the first, has a "work without temporarily" option. |
| 22:41 | < Namegduf> | I don't know about you, but I would call the latter the less restrictive one. |
| 22:41 | < celticminstrel> | (Though others such as Civ3 and AoE were gifted to me.) |
| 22:41 | <@McMartin> | Namegduf: Likewise. |
| 22:42 | <@McMartin> | celticminstrel: Steam may make you more likely to impulsebuy things during the long tail, so be warned about that~ |
| 22:42 | <@McMartin> | I dropped about $150 last year on games via Steam, but I paid more than $10 for a game... once. |
| 22:42 | < celticminstrel> | I don't really impulse buy stuff... |
| 22:42 | <@McMartin> | Then you should be fine =) |
| 22:42 | < Namegduf> | I droppde $180 on the humble indie bundle |
| 22:42 | <@McMartin> | Portal for $0 is a worthwhile impulse buy though |
| 22:43 | < Namegduf> | I think I had been awake all night and had too much coffee |
| 22:43 | < Tarinaky> | The weekend offers they do on steam sap my student loan :/ |
| 22:43 | < Namegduf> | Steam lives in a VM, so I'm normally safe. |
| 22:43 | < Namegduf> | I don't run it much. |
| 22:43 | <@McMartin> | Namegduf: FOR NOW |
| 22:43 | < celticminstrel> | Yes. The only other time I did anything like impulse buying is when I paid $5 for World of Goo during their "Pay what you like" sale. |
| 22:43 | < Namegduf> | McMartin: XD |
| 22:43 | < Namegduf> | McMartin: I heard rumours their Linux guy got reassigned |
| 22:44 | <@McMartin> | celticminstrel: Right. On the "games I picked up for under five bucks" list, we have Mass Effect 1 and Mirror's Edge. |
| 22:44 | <@McMartin> | Also Psychonauts, but if it hadn't been I wouldn't have since I already had that on PS2 |
| 22:44 | <@McMartin> | But hey, 2 bucks for Goggalor on a better monitor |
| 22:45 | <@Derakon> | Pfft |
| 22:45 | <@McMartin> | He's immune to bullets! |
| 22:45 | <@McMartin> | And love! |
| 22:45 | < celticminstrel> | I guess I need to read Steam's license agreement now... :| |
| 22:45 | <@McMartin> | May as well |
| 22:45 | < celticminstrel> | Or skim it at least. |
| 22:45 | < Namegduf> | They're all terrible |
| 22:45 | < Namegduf> | So I don't worry too much about it. |
| 22:46 | < Namegduf> | But sounds reasonable. |
| 22:46 | <@McMartin> | It's pretty standard IIRC; the main bits are "don't be logged in two places at once, don't lend out your account, don't be a dick via our social networking features" |
| 22:49 | < celticminstrel> | If you want to use it on a different computer, do you have to "de-authenticate" first on the other computer? |
| 22:49 | < Namegduf> | No. |
| 22:49 | < Namegduf> | Instead, Steam only works for a week in "offline mode", I think. Then the first computer needs to have an Internet connection again. |
| 22:50 | < Namegduf> | Not 100% |
| 22:50 | < celticminstrel> | Is that a week relative time or absolute time? |
| 22:50 | < Namegduf> | System clock. |
| 22:50 | < Namegduf> | I would assume. |
| 22:50 | <@McMartin> | Er |
| 22:50 | < celticminstrel> | So, not based on the actual time playing? |
| 22:50 | <@McMartin> | AFAIK Steam offline mode is permanent |
| 22:50 | < Namegduf> | Not at all sure, it's not functionality I've ever relied on. |
| 22:51 | < Namegduf> | It's permanent? |
| 22:51 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. Well, whatever. Either way it sounds pretty good. |
| 22:51 | <@McMartin> | Namegduf: based on my own "oh wait, I installed Steam on this old thing?" experiences it's *at least* three months |
| 22:51 | < celticminstrel> | I'd understand if enabling offline mode disallowed you from connecting from other computers though... |
| 22:51 | < Namegduf> | Well, it might refuse to let you take multiple systems into offline mode at once |
| 22:51 | <@McMartin> | That's possible |
| 22:52 | < celticminstrel> | Which one? |
| 22:52 | < Namegduf> | Which if one system broke might mean contactly Steam support, which I've honestly never heard anything good about. |
| 22:52 | <@McMartin> | Both |
| 22:52 | <@McMartin> | Logging in from one location devalidates cached credentials for another location |
| 22:52 | < Namegduf> | I don't *think* yours is true, but I don't know for sure. |
| 22:52 | < Namegduf> | I don't remember if I ever tried. |
| 22:52 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, nor I |
| 22:52 | < celticminstrel> | Chances are slim that I'd need offline mode, fortunately. |
| 22:53 | <@McMartin> | But I have kept one machine with steam not running but in online mode and saved password mode... |
| 22:53 | <@McMartin> | ... go on vacation, log in somewhere else, wipe everything when I'm done |
| 22:53 | < Namegduf> | At any rate, no, you don't need to deauthorise while playing with an Internet connection, the only case I can think of needing it is if your computer explodes while temporarily in offline mode. |
| 22:53 | <@McMartin> | ... and then when I come back it wants my password again |
| 22:53 | <@McMartin> | But that's not authorization, that's cached credentials |
| 22:53 | < celticminstrel> | Oh nice, they have the "just drag to the Apps folder" method of installation. |
| 22:53 | < Namegduf> | Ah, on Mac? |
| 22:53 | < Namegduf> | Neat. |
| 22:54 | <@McMartin> | Yay |
| 22:54 | <@McMartin> | I hate .pkg so much |
| 22:54 | < Namegduf> | I do know Steam will happily work from multiple computers |
| 22:54 | < Namegduf> | Because my Vista and XP VM installations probably look like different computers. |
| 22:54 | <@Derakon> | The only problem with the "just drag to your directory of choice" installation method is that it implies that you can uninstall it entirely just by deleting what you copied. |
| 22:54 | <@Derakon> | When in fact other files may well have been written to ~/Library |
| 22:54 | < Namegduf> | (Yes, Vista, but if it helps I'm not sure 7 was released the last time I booted it for more than the partitioner) |
| 22:55 | <@Derakon> | But honestly, it's an improvement in so many other ways, I'll take it anyway. |
| 22:55 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: .pkg is like that too but it also shits all over your system directories |
| 22:55 | <@McMartin> | And does not include uninstallers to go with the extra system stuff |
| 22:55 | <@McMartin> | It's basically the worst of all worlds. >_< |
| 22:55 | | * Derakon winces. |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | It adds some unreadable binary blobs to System/Receipts/Packages or some such, though! |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | Except when it doesn't. |
| 22:56 | < celticminstrel> | Well, it's usually not hard to look through the ~/Library folder and determine which files belonged to now-deleted programs, I think. Though it'd take some time. |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | And if it included sub-packages, you won't know what they are, either |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | But they'll be under those names at the top level |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | <3 |
| 22:56 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, ~/Library/Application Support/Whatever is the user's lookout, and an uninstall might not *want* to reacht hat. |
| 22:57 | <@McMartin> | *that |
| 22:57 | <@McMartin> | I have no real objections to those |
| 22:57 | <@McMartin> | That's the equivalent of ~/.whatever or %APPDATA%\whatever |
| 22:57 | < celticminstrel> | So, the first thing it does on launching is run an update... :/ |
| 22:57 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 22:57 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, the initial download of Steam is kind of painful because it's a secret net installer |
| 22:58 | < celticminstrel> | Downloading an additional ~33MB. |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | It just uses its update mechanism to do it |
| 22:58 | <@McMartin> | That would be the actual app |
| 22:58 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
| 23:06 | <@McMartin> | (That said, I would expect there to be an update at least daily for some weeks; this is the first release of the Mac application and I'm sure it's going to explode like whoa all over) |
| 23:08 | <@Derakon> | I wonder what Valve's bandwidth utilization looks like. |
| 23:08 | <@McMartin> | Well, store.steampowered.com has been intermittently going down for the past hour |
| 23:08 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 23:09 | < Namegduf> | See, they wouldn't be having bandwidth issues if they'd released a Linux client first |
| 23:09 | < Namegduf> | They should have done that! |
| 23:48 | | cpux [Moo@Nightstar-20a84089.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 23:54 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 23:56 | < Alek> | http://store.steampowered.com/app/901037/ |
| 23:56 | | * Alek twitches. |
| 23:56 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 23:56 | < Alek> | Additional content included in Dragon Age: Origins: |
| 23:56 | < Alek> | Blood Dragon Armor |
| 23:56 | < Alek> | Armor will be usable in BioWare's upcoming science fiction epic, Mass Effect 2 |
| 23:58 | | Vornicus [vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:58 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by Reiver |
| 23:59 | | Derakon [Derakon@Nightstar-1ffd02e6.ucsf.edu] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| --- Log closed Thu May 13 00:00:00 2010 |