| --- Log opened Mon May 10 00:00:57 2010 |
| 00:04 | | * McMartin looks at Scala |
| 00:05 | <@McMartin> | This looks better than Java for instructional purposes in basically every way |
| 00:05 | | * McMartin has the obvious bias towards any instructional language being being multi-paradigm, but still. |
| 00:09 | <@McMartin> | But it has delicious curry in it \o/ |
| 00:15 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 05:32 | < celticminstrel> | ...wait. Javascript has a dedicated Regexp syntax? |
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| 05:43 | <@Vornicus> | Yes. |
| 05:44 | <@Vornicus> | As well it should, a great deal of its problem domain is string smashing. |
| 05:46 | < celticminstrel> | I simply didn't know it had it. |
| 05:48 | <@Derakon> | I kinda expect any modern language to have decent regex support. |
| 05:49 | < Namegduf> | Support and specialised syntax for are different things, though. |
| 05:49 | <@Derakon> | Point. |
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| 11:06 | < Tarinaky> | I tried reading some of The Art of Programming Vol 2 this morning. My eyes glazed over from the maths :/ |
| 11:12 | < Zed> | ^ ^ |
| 11:12 | < Zed> | good times. |
| 11:13 | < Zed> | Data structures ft...w? |
| 11:13 | < Zed> | algorithms are really what separate a computer SCIENCE person from someone who can write a program to do something. |
| 11:13 | < Zed> | imo. |
| 11:14 | < Tarinaky> | Volume 2. It's the seminumerical functions one. |
| 11:14 | | * Tarinaky wanted to read up on PRNGs. |
| 11:15 | < Tarinaky> | I've gotten about as far as X_n+1 -> a X_n+c |
| 11:15 | < Tarinaky> | Whoops, mixed my notation. |
| 11:15 | < Tarinaky> | I've gotten about as far as X -> a X + c |
| 11:15 | < Zed> | as I said |
| 11:15 | < Zed> | fucking algorithms |
| 11:15 | < Tarinaky> | Oh and there's a mod m in there at the end. |
| 11:15 | < Zed> | <- "someone who can write a program" |
| 11:15 | < Zed> | not the other guy. |
| 11:16 | < Tarinaky> | I'm a Physics student. |
| 11:16 | < Tarinaky> | My eyes glaze over at the maths in my physics text books to >.> |
| 11:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Zed: computer science is not science. |
| 11:16 | <@TheWatcher> | IT does not follow scientific method |
| 11:17 | < Zed> | Fair enough. |
| 11:17 | <@TheWatcher> | It's in the same boat as mathematics, for very similar reasons |
| 11:17 | < Zed> | Because it's a supertechnical manufacturing field. |
| 11:17 | < Zed> | like math. :P |
| 11:17 | < Tarinaky> | Computer Maths doesn't have the same ring to it as Computer Science. |
| 11:17 | < Zed> | http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/max-spec.htm <- mechanical keyswitch ergo keyboard. |
| 11:17 | < Zed> | WHY DID NOONE TELL ME THIS EXISTED? |
| 11:18 | < Zed> | I mean, sure, there was the IBM model M15 |
| 11:18 | < Zed> | but this is AWESOME. :) |
| 11:20 | < Zed> | and then we have horrifying |
| 11:20 | < Zed> | http://www.ergonomicsmadeeasy.com/store/integrated-pointing-devices/product/nort hgate-ergonomic-evolution-keyboard/ |
| 11:20 | < Zed> | what the HELL is that? |
| 11:27 | <@TheWatcher> | Programming at least is much closer to philosophy and art than it is to science, even things like formal methods are arguably not science, they're just the application of logical proofs (which themselves are arguably not true SCIENCE!) Things change when you get to the hardware level of CS, but at code levels? |
| 11:28 | < Tarinaky> | At hardware levels it's engineering rather than science. |
| 11:29 | < Tarinaky> | Unless you mean the nature of the semiconductors themselves. In which case you'r in Physics territory. |
| 11:29 | < Tarinaky> | *you're |
| 11:29 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, quite |
| 11:29 | <@TheWatcher> | I still have scars from the electron-level stuff I had to study >.< |
| 11:29 | < Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: I have an exam on it this month. |
| 11:30 | <@TheWatcher> | Best of luck to you |
| 11:30 | < Tarinaky> | PA2240 Electrons in Solids. |
| 11:30 | < Tarinaky> | Actually, can't remember the module title... There's some thermodynamics in there too for some reason. |
| 11:56 | < Zed> | Good luck. |
| 11:57 | < Tarinaky> | Aye. |
| 11:57 | < Tarinaky> | I need it :/ |
| 11:57 | < Tarinaky> | I understand it not better now than 6 months ago. |
| 11:57 | < Tarinaky> | *no better |
| 11:58 | < Zed> | Ooo! Here's what I know about silicon |
| 11:58 | < Zed> | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835213001 |
| 11:58 | < Zed> | that's ridiculous airflow. |
| 11:59 | | cpux is now known as shade_of_cpux |
| 11:59 | < Zed> | buying that and then listening to everyone complain about my computer. |
| 11:59 | < Zed> | that's what I know. :) |
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| 16:43 | | mode/#code [+o Derakon] by Reiver |
| 16:46 | <@Derakon> | Any recommendations for a good system to make a backup image of a hard drive? |
| 16:46 | <@Derakon> | I want to try reinstalling something on one of our more ancient computers, but I'm worried I'll break things. |
| 16:46 | <@Derakon> | The ancient computer's running Windows 2000; I generally access it via remote desktop from a Windows 7 machine. |
| 16:47 | <@TheWatcher> | dd if=/dev/hda | ssh user@foo.com "dd of=hda.img" >.> |
| 16:48 | <@Derakon> | That would require me to a) boot the computer in question into Linux, and b) boot another computer on the same network into Linux so I can SSH onto it. ?.? |
| 16:50 | <@Derakon> | (Or b) set up a Windows computer to listen to SSH, I suppose) |
| 17:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | (b is actually a ten second task if cygwin is installed, since it installs sshd) |
| 17:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | More seriously, if you want a backup image you probably want to boot it into a livesystem anyways, so that everything is consistent and it doesn't think it's just had a power failure when you restore it. |
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| 17:33 | <@Derakon> | Unrelated: http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/HP.png |
| 17:33 | | Syloqs_AFH [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 17:34 | <@TheWatcher> | That's... typical HP, really. |
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| 17:41 | <@Derakon> | (I note that when the dialog box originally opened, it was a couple of thousand pixels wide, and therefore spanned two monitors) |
| 17:51 | < gnolam> | Derakon: send it to The Daily WTF. |
| 17:54 | <@Derakon> | Ehh, I don't really want to encourage their insipid "whoops this dialog box sure is silly ha ha" articles. |
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| 18:23 | < gnolam> | In other news, computer games really can affect kids. |
| 18:24 | < gnolam> | I was reading about the Deepwater Horizon spill and got an urge to play Oil Imperium, heh. |
| 18:52 | | * Derakon ponders a screenshot of the microscope UI, wonders where in blazes he's going to fit more buttons. |
| 18:52 | <@Derakon> | The users don't like the idea of using a menubar instead of a bunch of buttons, sadly. |
| 18:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Tabs? >.> |
| 18:52 | <@Derakon> | Har. |
| 18:53 | <@Derakon> | (UI in question: http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/omxscreenshot20100427.png . Warning: large PNG) |
| 18:54 | <@Derakon> | (The button in question should really be part of the "Other buttons" mini-panel right above the red "switch user" button.) |
| 19:07 | < gnolam> | And you just know that wherever you put it, you'll get blasted for it. Rule #1: Users don't like change. :P |
| 19:07 | <@Derakon> | Oh, I'm used to that. |
| 19:08 | <@Derakon> | Fortunately the user that detests change is generally shouted down by the ones who want more capabilities. |
| 19:15 | < gnolam> | http://news.cnet.com/8301-13577_3-20004563-36.html |
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| 21:14 | <@Derakon> | Y'know, whoever came up with the idea of keyworded function arguments was a genius. |
| 21:15 | | * Derakon eyes setSafetyMinOMX(2, X.m_setSafetyMinZ) |
| 21:15 | <@Derakon> | If I didn't know a fair amount about the code in question, I would have no idea that 2 in this case refers to the Z axis. |
| 21:17 | < Namegduf> | It sucks that there's no such thing as documentation. |
| 21:18 | < Namegduf> | And IDEs that make it easier to view the documentation for a function call, if that's your thing. |
| 21:18 | | * Namegduf likes function calls that fit on a line |
| 21:18 | <@Derakon> | This is a remote procedure call, as it happens. |
| 21:18 | < Namegduf> | Definitely ought to be documented, then. |
| 21:19 | <@Derakon> | Keywording your arguments makes the code self-documenting. |
| 21:19 | < Namegduf> | And a lot longer. |
| 21:19 | < Namegduf> | Crappy tradeoff. |
| 21:19 | <@Derakon> | Y'know, in the battle between overly-verbose code and code that I can leeging understand, I'll tend to side with the latter. |
| 21:19 | < Namegduf> | "Make every line longer so the first time someone sees the function they don't have to check its source/the docs" |
| 21:19 | <@Derakon> | s/verbose/terse/ |
| 21:20 | < Namegduf> | I think calling function calls without keyword arguments "overly terse" is exaggerating. |
| 21:20 | <@Derakon> | s/the first time/when/ |
| 21:20 | <@Derakon> | Well, obviously keyworded arguments aren't vital every time. |
| 21:20 | <@Derakon> | But IMO they're useful more often than not. |
| 21:21 | <@Derakon> | Most functions that operate on one argument don't generally need to be keyworded, for example, since the function name will usually tell you what the argument is for. |
| 21:22 | < Namegduf> | I've never really had a problem. If I'm unfamiliar with a function I check its signature, or source, or docs. If this is overly slow, I would use various editor or IDE features that are designed to provide quick access to this. |
| 21:22 | < Namegduf> | I do, however, have problems with overly verbose, rather hard to read code due to repeated boilerplate. |
| 21:23 | <@Derakon> | I'd say that's someone not knowing how to format function arguments, then~ |
| 21:23 | < Namegduf> | I think adding full names of every variable to every call is a little overly verbose. |
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| 21:23 | < Namegduf> | Could you back up that statement, please? |
| 21:23 | < Namegduf> | 'cause that is kinda rude. |
| 21:23 | <@Derakon> | And you'll note that's not what I'm advocating. |
| 21:24 | <@Derakon> | My stance is that a function call is easy to read with or without keyworded arguments, so long as the arguments are properly formatted. |
| 21:24 | <@Derakon> | So oftentimes I'll have a function call where each argument gets its own line. |
| 21:24 | < Namegduf> | I disagree. |
| 21:24 | < Namegduf> | That makes them long in line count, and makes every function call have indent levels. |
| 21:25 | <@Derakon> | So? |
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| 21:25 | < Namegduf> | It is harder to read. |
| 21:25 | < celticminstrel> | Actually, I sometimes have function calls where each argument is on its own line too. |
| 21:25 | < Namegduf> | I do, too. |
| 21:25 | | * jerith writes pretty code. |
| 21:26 | < celticminstrel> | Especially when there are a lot of arguments and the arguments are long. |
| 21:26 | < Namegduf> | We're discussing whether this is a good idea in general. |
| 21:26 | <@jerith> | I have no firm guidelines, except "it's comfortable to read". |
| 21:26 | <@Derakon> | We seem to have digressed into what exactly makes for readable code. |
| 21:26 | < celticminstrel> | Yeah, what Jerith said. |
| 21:26 | < Namegduf> | You don't want lots and lots of long function calls. |
| 21:26 | < Namegduf> | Them getting ugly is not solely a factor of "not breaking them over multiple lines" |
| 21:26 | < celticminstrel> | I wouldn't say I care a whole lot about reducing line count. |
| 21:27 | <@Derakon> | I continue to not see the problem with functions often spanning multiple lines. |
| 21:27 | < celticminstrel> | I mean, sure, it's nice to have shorter code, but it's also nice to have more readable code. |
| 21:27 | <@Derakon> | Do you have an unstated goal of fitting as much of the file onto your screen at a time as possible? |
| 21:27 | < Namegduf> | Hold on. |
| 21:27 | <@jerith> | In particular, I'm frequently wildly inconsistent in formatting. What works for this thing doesn't necessarily work for that thing over there. |
| 21:27 | < Namegduf> | No, I'm going to make an example. |
| 21:28 | <@jerith> | I like dense code, but only if I can make out what it's doing. |
| 21:28 | < Namegduf> | http://pastebin.com/RvL2ZpA7 |
| 21:28 | <@Derakon> | The only time I play golf with code is when I'm doing Perl one-liners on the commandline~ |
| 21:29 | <@jerith> | (Sparse code makes me jump around a lot, which is uncomfortable.) |
| 21:29 | < Namegduf> | Are you seriously telling me that you don't see the first version as harder to read and uglier than the second? |
| 21:29 | <@Derakon> | Your example is not what I'm thinking of. |
| 21:29 | < Namegduf> | Then I think you need to clarify. |
| 21:29 | <@Derakon> | Let me make my own. |
| 21:29 | <@jerith> | Namegduf: It depends on context a lot. |
| 21:30 | <@Derakon> | http://pastebin.com/nDtrEX9z |
| 21:30 | <@jerith> | I tend to use keyword arguments when there's ambiguity about what things are or if the default ordering is silly. |
| 21:30 | < Namegduf> | That's a very complex, long call. |
| 21:30 | <@jerith> | Yes. |
| 21:31 | < Namegduf> | That's kinda an atypical example. |
| 21:31 | <@Derakon> | Depends on the code you're working with. |
| 21:31 | <@jerith> | Edge cases are what it's all about. |
| 21:31 | < Namegduf> | I'm pretty sure that's undeniably long, and passes a lot in. |
| 21:31 | <@jerith> | My code is full of long, complex calls. |
| 21:31 | < Namegduf> | I'll admit it might not be atypical, but I would hate to work with it. |
| 21:31 | <@Derakon> | It's miles better than what it replaced! |
| 21:31 | < Namegduf> | (In a given bit of code) |
| 21:31 | <@Derakon> | Which was hand-coding a label and an input field for every single input in a form. |
| 21:32 | <@jerith> | Derakon: I must admit to hating the whitespace around the "=" in there. |
| 21:32 | <@Derakon> | In WX's layout system, which is nowhere near as clean as, say, HTML. |
| 21:32 | <@Derakon> | Jerith: really? I've always hated not having the spaces around '=', myself. *shrug* |
| 21:32 | < Namegduf> | If you're restricting "keyword arguments are awesome" to that, then sure, at least separate to the optional vs non-optional thing that tends to come along with. |
| 21:32 | <@jerith> | "foo = bar" screams "assignment", not "keyword param". |
| 21:33 | <@Derakon> | Well, it is assignment. |
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| 21:33 | <@Derakon> | You're assigning bar to the variable in the function call that's named "foo". |
| 21:33 | <@Derakon> | You just have to recognize that foo is not a variable in local scope, which is indicated by the context being a function call. |
| 21:34 | <@jerith> | Derakon: Formatted like that, it's not immediately obvious that they belong to the call. |
| 21:34 | < Namegduf> | Keyword arguments for long calls are fairly pretty. So long as you're not suggesting they're good for everything else, that's okay. |
| 21:34 | <@jerith> | I also tend to align my multiline param sets with the opening paren of the call. |
| 21:35 | <@jerith> | And not put more than one on a line. |
| 21:35 | <@Derakon> | I used to do that... |
| 21:35 | <@Derakon> | But then I found that didn't work at all for functions with long names and/or namespaces. |
| 21:36 | <@jerith> | If I'm not aligning them, I usually indent one level and put the first param on the line below the function name. |
| 21:36 | < Namegduf> | Hmm. |
| 21:36 | <@Derakon> | I should probably do that here, yeah. |
| 21:36 | <@jerith> | In extreme cases, I've been known to build a dict and pass **params. |
| 21:36 | <@Derakon> | (Though I use two levels of indent for anything that's a "one-liner" indentation, i.e. not a new code block) |
| 21:37 | <@jerith> | (That's generally for complex param-selection logic, though.) |
| 21:37 | <@jerith> | I use one level of indent because I'm too lazy to configure my editor differently. |
| 21:37 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 21:39 | <@Derakon> | Oh look, rain. Joy. |
| 21:39 | | Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-076b3c57.adsl.virginmedia.net] has joined #code |
| 21:39 | <@Derakon> | It's farging MAY in SAN FRANCISCO, you bastards! |
| 21:39 | <@jerith> | It's been raining for a couple of days here. |
| 21:40 | <@jerith> | The wind that kept me awake on Saturday night took one of the gutters off my building. |
| 21:40 | <@jerith> | I have two coworkers who write messy code. |
| 21:40 | <@Derakon> | The Bay Area's rainy season is supposed to be sharply dilineated as mid October to early April. |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: Rain is just fog that's gotten too thick. |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: Ahahahahaha |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | I'm pretty sure it's rained through like June since I was at Cal |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | The *wind* is pretty impressive for May, though, I'll admit |
| 21:42 | <@jerith> | Not /bad/ code, just messy. |
| 21:43 | <@jerith> | I hate working in it, because I keep wanting to reformat it. |
| 21:43 | <@Derakon> | One of the companies I interviewed with when I was last looking for a job said they had a code formatter that they ran everyones' checkins through. |
| 21:43 | < Namegduf> | Interesting idea. |
| 21:43 | < Namegduf> | What do you think of it? |
| 21:43 | <@jerith> | I think that's a perfectly horrible idea. |
| 21:44 | < Namegduf> | You do? |
| 21:44 | <@Derakon> | Formatting can often depend heavily on context. |
| 21:44 | <@jerith> | See above about my formatting being inconsistent, because different bits look pretty in different ways. |
| 21:45 | <@Derakon> | For things like regularizing whitespace around operators and commas, ensuring that datastructures always are laid out the same way, and so on, I can see some value. |
| 21:45 | <@Derakon> | I've spent more time than I care to contemplate reformatting my predecessor's code to have a space after each comma, for example. ?.? |
| 21:45 | <@jerith> | We run checkstyle over some of our Java projects so that it whinges about dodgy formatting, but *nothing* should alter a single byte in my code without me explicitly telling it to. |
| 21:45 | < celticminstrel> | I keep forgetting to put spaces after commas. <_< |
| 21:46 | <@Derakon> | I think Sebastian just had a dodgy spacebar. |
| 21:46 | <@Derakon> | And a lack of willpower to do anything about it when it didn't work. |
| 21:47 | <@Derakon> | Because I often see things like this: X.foo(bar,baz, quux= zorp,zull = rupert) |
| 21:48 | <@jerith> | Jason writes code like that. ;_; |
| 21:48 | < Namegduf> | Ew. |
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| 22:15 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | I will occasionally forget spacing. |
| 22:15 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 22:15 | <@Vornicus> | But it's generally consistent within a line. |
| 22:18 | <@Vornicus> | So I'll have one line where it's all stuffed together - no spaces after commas, no spaces around operators - and then later on another with more space than your body has room for! |
| 22:20 | < gnolam> | jerith: Voorhees? |
| 22:23 | <@Derakon> | Generally the only time I don't put spaces in is when I'm writing a debugging print statement, e.g. |
| 22:23 | <@Derakon> | print "At start of callFoo; arguments are",arg1,arg2,arg3 |
| 22:23 | <@Derakon> | It's gotten bad enough that I do that for regular print statements now, too, by reflex. |
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| 22:40 | < gnolam> | Dang. I may need to spin out just the timekeeping to a class of its own. |
| 22:40 | < gnolam> | Too... many... time... systems... |
| 22:49 | <@Derakon> | ...it's always worrying when I find code that doesn't seem like it should be able to function. |
| 22:50 | <@Derakon> | In this case, a function that refers to getRot, which I can't find defined anywhere. |
| 22:50 | <@Derakon> | Problem being I can't trivially prove by static analysis this code isn't running. |
| 22:50 | < gnolam> | It's probably in Nurgle.py |
| 22:51 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 22:53 | <@Derakon> | ...ahh, it doesn't crash because we always call it with an argument that is not the default argument, thereby dodging the code path that refers to the undefined function. |
| 22:54 | <@Derakon> | Instead, every time we call the function, we try to do something that cannot possibly succeed, catch the resulting exception, and then do something else instead. |
| 22:54 | <@Derakon> | ...and I just hit <esc>:w at the end of that IRC line. Hrm. |
| 22:55 | < celticminstrel> | Esc:w? |
| 22:55 | <@Derakon> | Get out of insert mode and save your file, in vim. |
| 22:56 | < celticminstrel> | I was never able to figure out how to exit vim when I accidentally launched it; I had to Ctrl-Z and kill it. |
| 22:56 | < gnolam> | Oops. |
| 22:56 | <@Derakon> | Hit escape to get to command mode, if you aren't already in it. Then type :q<enter> |
| 22:56 | | * gnolam corrects a tiny little bug that meant he got a date calculation wrong by about 2.5 million days. |
| 22:56 | <@Derakon> | (Where "<enter>" is the enter key) |
| 22:57 | < celticminstrel> | I'll remember that if I ever accidentally launch it again. |
| 22:57 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 22:57 | < celticminstrel> | (The reason it happened is because I'm used to typing "edit ..." to open a file in TextWrangler... except, I was connected by ssh to another server, on which the edit command was vim.) |
| 22:58 | < PinkFreud> | gnolam: ... I remember it like it was yesterday ... |
| 22:59 | <@Derakon> | PinkFreud has a 21-bit clock, I see. |
| 22:59 | <@Derakon> | (2.5 million ~= 2^22) |
| 22:59 | < PinkFreud> | Derakon: you're giving me too much credit. |
| 22:59 | <@Derakon> | (I mean, 2^21. Agh) |
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| 23:01 | < gnolam> | (I had accidentally mixed up Julian Day Numbers with my epoch days at one place) |
| 23:04 | < gnolam> | (JDNs are calculated from 4713 BC; my epoch is J2000.0) |
| 23:06 | <@Derakon> | Any particular reason you're doing your own date manipulation instead of using a library? |
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| 23:07 | < gnolam> | I'm not so much manipulating dates as manipulating things /according/ to dates. |
| 23:08 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 23:11 | <@Derakon> | Okay, lack of sleep the night before is starting to catch up with me. |
| 23:11 | <@Derakon> | Stupid migraines. |
| 23:11 | <@Derakon> | (Prevented me from sleeping, that is) |
| 23:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: if you've accidentally modified it, :q! is quit without saving, and :wq is save and quit |
| 23:34 | < celticminstrel> | X_X |
| 23:34 | < celticminstrel> | I am super-glad that I don't have to use Vim for anything. |
| 23:34 | <@Derakon> | :x is also save and quit. |
| 23:35 | <@Derakon> | And honestly, I found vim to be about equivalent to emacs in terms of difficulty curve. |
| 23:35 | < celticminstrel> | :x ? |
| 23:35 | <@Derakon> | Yes. |
| 23:35 | < celticminstrel> | :x is an "angry" emoticon on my client. |
| 23:35 | <@Derakon> | Maybe your client shouldn't render emotes in a coding channel. :p |
| 23:35 | < celticminstrel> | Well, I don't like emacs either. |
| 23:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Heathen!~ |
| 23:36 | < celticminstrel> | It doesn't render them if there's something touching them. |
| 23:36 | < celticminstrel> | And I can disable them temporarily if truly necessary. |
| 23:43 | <@Derakon> | Good god man, you've had that cough for over a month now. |
| 23:43 | < celticminstrel> | Who? |
| 23:44 | <@Derakon> | One of my coworkers. |
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| 23:45 | < celticminstrel> | I thought you were talking to me. :P |
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| --- Log closed Tue May 11 00:00:58 2010 |