--- Log opened Wed Apr 21 00:00:11 2010 |
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05:11 | < Reiv> | haha, awesome |
05:12 | <@Derakon> | Ahh, wget. |
05:12 | < Reiv> | Spoke to lecturer - precision not crucial. |
05:12 | <@Derakon> | So handy. |
05:12 | | * Derakon downloads a bit over 100 web pages by programmatically determining their URLs based on file modification dates on his hard drive. |
05:12 | | * Reiv shall set thrice-bedamned BigDecimal %Bon fire%B |
05:12 | < Reiv> | Doubles all ze way, mon. |
05:12 | <@Derakon> | \o/ |
05:13 | < Reiv> | Though how I will read a String from "17.30" to an Integer of 1730 I am not yet sure. |
05:13 | <@Derakon> | elems = split(string, '.'); val = elems[0] * 100 + elems[1]; |
05:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | val = floor(tonumber(str)*100) |
05:14 | < Reiv> | ...that's legit java? |
05:14 | <@Derakon> | Um, probably not. |
05:14 | <@Derakon> | I haven't written Java in several years. |
05:14 | <@Derakon> | Just find the equivalents in the language though. |
05:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...there's probably a Float.parseFloat() static method |
05:14 | <@Derakon> | Though TF's approach seems likely to be better. |
05:14 | < Reiv> | Was going to say. Java is never that convinient ?? |
05:15 | <@Derakon> | I was just writing Perl, see~ |
05:15 | <@Derakon> | And Perl would do that with split. |
05:15 | < Reiv> | Perl is elderitch madness~ |
05:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mine was Lua. |
05:16 | | * Reiv sets Java on fire some more. |
05:16 | < Reiv> | ALSO |
05:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways, look for a static method with signature String -> double, probably in the Float or Double class. |
05:16 | < Reiv> | Lecturer has confirmed my alograthm is acceptable. |
05:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then multiply by 100 and round down. |
05:16 | < Reiv> | ...round down? |
05:17 | < Reiv> | Is this to deal with the crazies of doubles? |
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05:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or round to nearest, possibly. |
05:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or cast to int! |
05:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, you don't want to end up with 1730.00000000001 |
05:17 | < Reiv> | Right, just checking. |
05:18 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, this is the whole "You can't represent 1/100 exactly with a floating point" |
05:20 | < Reiv> | That's waht I was making sure of. |
05:20 | < Reiv> | And yeah, lec said "It was admirable that you were actually concerned with such precision, but I've told the tutor not to worry about it." |
05:20 | < Reiv> | or words to that effect. |
05:21 | < Reiv> | Which is good, because BigDecimal really sucked. |
05:22 | | * Reiv twiddles his thumbs, much relieved. |
05:22 | < Reiv> | Now all I have to do is finish downloading my free Win7 Pro and XP Pro, and go home and code it~ |
05:24 | < Reiv> | x86 is 32 bit while x64 is 64bt, right? |
05:24 | <@McMartin> | Yes |
05:24 | < Reiv> | just checking. Hmm. |
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05:24 | | * Reiv grabs both win7s anyway, |
05:24 | < Reiv> | I have the space ?? |
05:25 | < Reiv> | Useful trick: University system only lets you burn to DVDs. |
05:26 | < Reiv> | In such a way you use one DVD per software. |
05:26 | < Reiv> | However, in the process of setting up the burn, it caches the ISO on the hard drive. And I have a USB stick. ?? |
05:40 | < Reiv> | hum, so |
05:40 | < Reiv> | The algorathm itself. |
05:41 | < Reiv> | Is an ArrayList the best way to do it? There will be a lot od housecleaning of subsumed results. |
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06:18 | <@Vornicus> | Reiv: actually, I'd make it something sorted. |
06:24 | | * Derakon eyes his result set, args as he apparently made a mistake while checking copyright information. |
06:24 | <@Derakon> | So now I get to start over. >.< |
06:31 | <@Derakon> | Ya-hunh. Out of 165 files, I got the wrong download for 155 of them. Go me! |
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08:35 | < Orth> | blarg, stupid java |
08:36 | < Orth> | How do I turn a string into a float. |
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11:48 | < Orthia> | HAH |
11:48 | < Orthia> | Boilerplate: DEFEATED |
11:48 | < Orthia> | It will now load files in and stick the data where it needs to be stucketh. |
11:54 | | * gnolam ponders becoming a Google Android developer. |
11:54 | < gnolam> | Just so I can make a security-enhanced version and release it as "Paranoid Android". |
11:54 | < Orthia> | snerk. |
11:54 | < Orthia> | You'd sell a bazillion, to boot. |
11:54 | <@TheWatcher> | Pft |
11:54 | | * Orthia ponders |
11:55 | < Orthia> | Damnit, I know how the alograthm works. |
11:55 | < Orthia> | But how do I get it to /work/? |
11:55 | < Orthia> | Or rather, how the hell do I code it, hmm |
11:56 | <@TheWatcher> | You need a virgin, a sacrifical knife, a small altar, the tail feathers of the Noowegi Bird of Tanzania, and about 35 minutes looped version of an original recording of Jonny Cash's 'Ring of Fire' |
11:57 | < RichardBarrell> | You need to give Donald Knuth a hug. |
11:57 | < Orthia> | I think TW's version is preferable. |
11:58 | < Orthia> | But no, what I really need is a brain that isn't so freaking rusty. |
11:58 | | * Orthia mumbles. Why is it an alograthm that was straightforward enough to do /by hand/ is suddenly tricky? |
11:58 | | * TheWatcher provides a ball of steel wool on a stick? |
11:58 | < gnolam> | TheWatcher: I see you've worked with SCSI. |
11:58 | <@TheWatcher> | gnolam: yep! And I have the scars and dead controllers to prove it! |
11:59 | < Tarinaky> | To quote Donald Knuth: "Who are you? How did you get in my house?" |
12:02 | < gnolam> | "SCSI is not magic. There are fundamental technical reasons why you have to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain every now and then." -- John F. Woods |
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12:29 | | * Orthia curses dynamic programming with a thousand pits of bile. |
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13:59 | < Orthia> | okay, so |
13:59 | < Orthia> | If reliability for n items is 1-(1-reliability)^n |
14:02 | < Orthia> | argh, can't explain. |
14:06 | < Orthia> | OK |
14:06 | < Orthia> | I have a reliability for an overall system. |
14:07 | < Orthia> | Say, .6 for everything so far. |
14:07 | < Orthia> | I want to add 1 of item X, which has a reliability of, say, .8. |
14:07 | < Orthia> | I know how many of item X I already have added. |
14:07 | <@jerith> | "dynamic programming"? |
14:07 | < Orthia> | What the /heck/ does that do to the above formula? |
14:08 | < Orthia> | In the situations of "Zero" and "At least one"? |
14:08 | | * Orthia suspects this is a Math question. |
14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | um |
14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Are all items in the system item X, with the same reliability? |
14:12 | < Orthia> | No, they are not. |
14:12 | < Orthia> | Although actually I could possibly rig it so... hm... |
14:12 | | * Orthia goes back, stares at goats a bit longer |
14:13 | <@TheWatcher> | I was wondering, as n=1 is .8, n=2 is .96, and so on tending to 1. |
14:13 | < Orthia> | OK. You have a baseline reliability W. You are going to add n items X to it, until you run outta money, then store the whole thing and throw away the old set. |
14:20 | < Orthia> | Does that make the math easier? |
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15:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: memoization, basically. |
15:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Solving a problem that can be divided into overlapping subproblems by precaching the solutions to the subproblems. |
15:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Orthia: reliability of one item == chance it doesn't fail? Reliability of all items == chance at least one of them doesn't fail? |
15:28 | < Orthia> | correct |
15:29 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Ah, cool. I've only really heard the term used for genetic algorithms and/or self-modifying code. |
15:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: yeah, I've seen it used for that too, but strictly speaking it means neither. |
15:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Orthia: if you have a reliability W and an item with reliability X, the reliability of the entire system is 1 - (1-W)(1-X). |
15:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you're adding n items, it's 1 - (1-W)(1-X)^n, or if they have different reliabilities, 1 - (1-W)(1-X1)(1-X2)...(1-Xn) |
15:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Basically, you invert reliability to get "chance all of them fail". Then you just multiply together normally, and when done, turn it back into reliability. |
15:36 | < Orthia> | hm |
15:37 | < Orthia> | So if I have a base reliability |
15:37 | < Orthia> | And want to add an extra item in paralell, I multiply the whole thing by... wait, no. Augh. *sets it on fire* |
15:40 | < Orthia> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/258 |
15:42 | < Orthia> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/259 |
15:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Um. |
15:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. Reliability is the probability that at least one of them will keep working, right? |
15:52 | | * ToxicFrog pokes Orthia |
15:53 | <@jerith> | Reliability is the probability that *all* of them will keep working, no? |
15:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: that's howI'd define it, but that's not how this project seems to, which is why I'm double checking. |
15:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | And this makes sense as a reliability formula for, say, a RAID1. |
15:56 | < Orthia> | OK, I have two reliabilities I am playing with |
15:57 | < Orthia> | I have components of a single type, which are placed in paralell. Their reliability depends on at least one component remaining functional. |
15:57 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
15:57 | < Orthia> | I then have several of these component clusters linked in series. This overall reliability depends on at least one component in /each/ cluster remaining functional. |
15:57 | <@jerith> | That makes sense. |
15:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
15:58 | < Orthia> | The first thing, wherein the type has been found in the stack previously, is when I am adding another device in paralell. |
15:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Set aside the algorithm for the moment, we're just discussing the math. |
15:58 | <@jerith> | 1-(1-X)(1-Y)(1-Z) is for serial. |
15:58 | < Orthia> | The second formula, wherein the type has not been found, is adding a new device in series. |
15:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: er what |
15:58 | < Orthia> | The formula written for both of them is currently identical because I had no idea what I was doing~ |
15:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reliability of serial is the factor of the reliabilities of all of the clusters. |
15:59 | <@jerith> | Oh, that's parallel. |
15:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | If each cluster has a 1/2 survival rate, the survival rate of three clusters in parallel is (1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2) == 1/8 |
15:59 | <@jerith> | Serial is XYZ. |
15:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Er. |
15:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Three clusters in series, sorry. |
16:00 | | * jerith nods. |
16:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Orthia: ok, so. When reliability requires _all_ of the components to keep working, you just multiply the reliabilities together. |
16:00 | <@jerith> | So you just multiply them all together to get the serial reliability. |
16:00 | < Orthia> | That makes sense. |
16:00 | <@jerith> | For each parallel set, you use 1-(1-X)(1-Y)(...) |
16:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Intuitively: if you add something with a 50% survival rate, the overall survival rate is halved, because if that fails the whole thing fails. |
16:01 | < Orthia> | Right. |
16:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | For parallel, it works like so. |
16:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Say you have a reliability of 80%. |
16:01 | < Orthia> | ok |
16:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is equivalent to saying that there's a 20% chance of all of the components failing. |
16:02 | < Orthia> | First item is whole system *.8. |
16:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now you add something with reliability 50%. |
16:02 | < Orthia> | OK |
16:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even if that 20% chance of the rest failing comes up, there's still a 50/50 chance that this component will keep working. |
16:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | The failure rate goes down to 10% - or, conversely, reliability goes up to 90%. |
16:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sense-making? |
16:03 | < Orthia> | Conceptually, yes. |
16:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. |
16:03 | < Orthia> | Mathematically... maybe. |
16:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, for things in parallel, it works like this: |
16:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | - convert all survival rates into failure rates by subtracting from 1 |
16:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | - multiply all failure rates together to get the chance of everything failing |
16:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | - subtract that from 1 to get the chance of not-everything failing |
16:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | More generally, if you have a bunch of things, each one with probability Pn that they have some property, the odds that they all have that property are P1*P2*P3*...*Pn. |
16:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | (call that Pall) |
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16:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | This means that the probability that at least one of them doesn't have that property is 1 - Pall -- if there's a 1 in 36 chance of the dice coming up 1,1, there's a 35/36 chance that they'll come up something else. |
16:07 | | * AnnoDomini programs in assembly a keyboard handling thingy. |
16:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | If what you're trying to calculate is the probability that at least one of them has a property, the easiest way to do this is to calculate the probability that all of them don't, and then invert it. |
16:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Follow? |
16:08 | < Orthia> | I think so. |
16:08 | < Orthia> | So, hm |
16:08 | < Orthia> | ... aha |
16:08 | < Orthia> | I think I can rig this okay. |
16:08 | < Orthia> | hum. |
16:08 | | * Orthia thinks. |
16:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | It seems that I'd need to somehow disable the interrupt buffer for it to work properly, however, since there's some kind of problem with that. Whenever I press something - ANYTHING - I get a long stream of keyboard handler interrupt resolutions, dependant on the period of time I kept my finger on the key. |
16:09 | < Orthia> | So we have ReliabilitySoFar: If a new device type is being added (in series), RSF*newItem |
16:09 | < Orthia> | If a device is being added that's already present (In paralell), RSF*(1-newItem) |
16:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | No. |
16:10 | < Orthia> | No, that second one is wrong. |
16:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Total reliability: product of all cluster reliabilities. |
16:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Cluster reliability: 1 - (product of all (1 - reliability of this item)) |
16:14 | < Orthia> | hm |
16:15 | < Orthia> | Just to be sure, because I have been horrendous at this so far: Does that formula hold for, eg, having 1X, 2Y, and 1Z, and you are now adding an additional Z in paralell with the first? |
16:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ummmm |
16:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | The formula is for calculating the reliability of the entire system |
16:16 | < Orthia> | OK. |
16:16 | < Orthia> | Perhaps I should go to bed and try this in the morning~ |
16:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you add a Z, you re-calculate the reliability of the Z cluster, and then the reliability of the whole chain of clusters |
16:17 | < Orthia> | Aha! |
16:17 | < Orthia> | hmm. |
16:17 | < Orthia> | ... heey. |
16:17 | < Orthia> | I know the count of the item present |
16:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | If they're homogenous, the reliability for a cluster is just 1 - (1-R)^n |
16:17 | < Orthia> | right |
16:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | (as you can easily verify yourself) |
16:20 | | * AnnoDomini leaves that silly thing for later, since it's half-finished now and easily converted into something that works, later. |
16:20 | < Orthia> | Thank you TF |
16:21 | <@AnnoDomini> | On a different note, I'm looking at an article about programmers' paychecks. It appears that those who know Perl, unix scripts and Visual Basic are the best paid. |
16:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Systems administration. |
16:23 | < Orthia> | Less paid for the programming they know, more paid for the responsibility they control. |
16:23 | < Orthia> | Some of the ones NR has applied for have minimum equity requirements in the job - do you own your own house, what car do you drive, etc |
16:23 | < Orthia> | On the basis they want someone unbribable~ |
16:27 | <@jerith> | Less that than a track record of responsibility and such. |
16:27 | < RichardBarrell> | I'm unbribable monetarily. |
16:28 | < RichardBarrell> | Bacon is another matter entirely. |
16:28 | <@jerith> | RichardBarrell: You know that money can buy bacon, right? |
16:28 | < Namegduf> | I'd give my university password away for a piece of shiny foil. |
16:28 | < RichardBarrell> | jerith: well yes, but I had hoped that no one else did. |
16:28 | <@jerith> | I'd also give Namegduf's university password away for a piece of shiny foil. |
16:29 | < Namegduf> | It's less than I got last time when the incompetent buffoons got their Linux servers compromised. |
16:30 | | * Namegduf wonders if they'll make it into double-day uptime after the last time everything died |
16:32 | | * jerith has just moved into an office that used to belong to an ISP. |
16:32 | <@jerith> | They've been screwing around with our networks all day. |
16:32 | <@jerith> | All week, actually. |
16:45 | < Namegduf> | I think they like to update their servers constantly, or they're just Windows admins and used to rebooting every week or so for no reason. |
16:45 | < Namegduf> | Doesn't really explain things like "You know we have multiple servers, so a single one failing doesn't kill everything? Yeah, something they both need which isn't the user data storage (because that's still available) just died. We'll fix it in a day." |
16:46 | < Namegduf> | These are the servers that coursework is written on and supposed to be tested on, so that's wonderful when deadlines are close; also usually grounds for extension. |
16:46 | < Namegduf> | That's what happened last time they went down. |
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17:07 | < celticminstrel> | Alek |
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18:40 | < Alek> | cm, what? |
18:44 | < celticminstrel> | PM |
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--- Log closed Thu Apr 22 00:00:12 2010 |