code logs -> 2010 -> Wed, 21 Apr 2010< code.20100420.log - code.20100422.log >
--- Log opened Wed Apr 21 00:00:11 2010
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05:11
< Reiv>
haha, awesome
05:12
<@Derakon>
Ahh, wget.
05:12
< Reiv>
Spoke to lecturer - precision not crucial.
05:12
<@Derakon>
So handy.
05:12 * Derakon downloads a bit over 100 web pages by programmatically determining their URLs based on file modification dates on his hard drive.
05:12 * Reiv shall set thrice-bedamned BigDecimal %Bon fire%B
05:12
< Reiv>
Doubles all ze way, mon.
05:12
<@Derakon>
\o/
05:13
< Reiv>
Though how I will read a String from "17.30" to an Integer of 1730 I am not yet sure.
05:13
<@Derakon>
elems = split(string, '.'); val = elems[0] * 100 + elems[1];
05:14
<@ToxicFrog>
val = floor(tonumber(str)*100)
05:14
< Reiv>
...that's legit java?
05:14
<@Derakon>
Um, probably not.
05:14
<@Derakon>
I haven't written Java in several years.
05:14
<@Derakon>
Just find the equivalents in the language though.
05:14
<@ToxicFrog>
...there's probably a Float.parseFloat() static method
05:14
<@Derakon>
Though TF's approach seems likely to be better.
05:14
< Reiv>
Was going to say. Java is never that convinient ??
05:15
<@Derakon>
I was just writing Perl, see~
05:15
<@Derakon>
And Perl would do that with split.
05:15
< Reiv>
Perl is elderitch madness~
05:16
<@ToxicFrog>
Mine was Lua.
05:16 * Reiv sets Java on fire some more.
05:16
< Reiv>
ALSO
05:16
<@ToxicFrog>
Anyways, look for a static method with signature String -> double, probably in the Float or Double class.
05:16
< Reiv>
Lecturer has confirmed my alograthm is acceptable.
05:16
<@ToxicFrog>
Then multiply by 100 and round down.
05:16
< Reiv>
...round down?
05:17
< Reiv>
Is this to deal with the crazies of doubles?
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05:17
<@ToxicFrog>
Or round to nearest, possibly.
05:17
<@ToxicFrog>
Or cast to int!
05:17
<@ToxicFrog>
Yeah, you don't want to end up with 1730.00000000001
05:17
< Reiv>
Right, just checking.
05:18
<@McMartin>
Yeah, this is the whole "You can't represent 1/100 exactly with a floating point"
05:20
< Reiv>
That's waht I was making sure of.
05:20
< Reiv>
And yeah, lec said "It was admirable that you were actually concerned with such precision, but I've told the tutor not to worry about it."
05:20
< Reiv>
or words to that effect.
05:21
< Reiv>
Which is good, because BigDecimal really sucked.
05:22 * Reiv twiddles his thumbs, much relieved.
05:22
< Reiv>
Now all I have to do is finish downloading my free Win7 Pro and XP Pro, and go home and code it~
05:24
< Reiv>
x86 is 32 bit while x64 is 64bt, right?
05:24
<@McMartin>
Yes
05:24
< Reiv>
just checking. Hmm.
05:24 Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has quit [Connection closed]
05:24 * Reiv grabs both win7s anyway,
05:24
< Reiv>
I have the space ??
05:25
< Reiv>
Useful trick: University system only lets you burn to DVDs.
05:26
< Reiv>
In such a way you use one DVD per software.
05:26
< Reiv>
However, in the process of setting up the burn, it caches the ISO on the hard drive. And I have a USB stick. ??
05:40
< Reiv>
hum, so
05:40
< Reiv>
The algorathm itself.
05:41
< Reiv>
Is an ArrayList the best way to do it? There will be a lot od housecleaning of subsumed results.
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06:18
<@Vornicus>
Reiv: actually, I'd make it something sorted.
06:24 * Derakon eyes his result set, args as he apparently made a mistake while checking copyright information.
06:24
<@Derakon>
So now I get to start over. >.<
06:31
<@Derakon>
Ya-hunh. Out of 165 files, I got the wrong download for 155 of them. Go me!
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08:35
< Orth>
blarg, stupid java
08:36
< Orth>
How do I turn a string into a float.
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11:48
< Orthia>
HAH
11:48
< Orthia>
Boilerplate: DEFEATED
11:48
< Orthia>
It will now load files in and stick the data where it needs to be stucketh.
11:54 * gnolam ponders becoming a Google Android developer.
11:54
< gnolam>
Just so I can make a security-enhanced version and release it as "Paranoid Android".
11:54
< Orthia>
snerk.
11:54
< Orthia>
You'd sell a bazillion, to boot.
11:54
<@TheWatcher>
Pft
11:54 * Orthia ponders
11:55
< Orthia>
Damnit, I know how the alograthm works.
11:55
< Orthia>
But how do I get it to /work/?
11:55
< Orthia>
Or rather, how the hell do I code it, hmm
11:56
<@TheWatcher>
You need a virgin, a sacrifical knife, a small altar, the tail feathers of the Noowegi Bird of Tanzania, and about 35 minutes looped version of an original recording of Jonny Cash's 'Ring of Fire'
11:57
< RichardBarrell>
You need to give Donald Knuth a hug.
11:57
< Orthia>
I think TW's version is preferable.
11:58
< Orthia>
But no, what I really need is a brain that isn't so freaking rusty.
11:58 * Orthia mumbles. Why is it an alograthm that was straightforward enough to do /by hand/ is suddenly tricky?
11:58 * TheWatcher provides a ball of steel wool on a stick?
11:58
< gnolam>
TheWatcher: I see you've worked with SCSI.
11:58
<@TheWatcher>
gnolam: yep! And I have the scars and dead controllers to prove it!
11:59
< Tarinaky>
To quote Donald Knuth: "Who are you? How did you get in my house?"
12:02
< gnolam>
"SCSI is not magic. There are fundamental technical reasons why you have to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain every now and then." -- John F. Woods
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12:29 * Orthia curses dynamic programming with a thousand pits of bile.
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13:59
< Orthia>
okay, so
13:59
< Orthia>
If reliability for n items is 1-(1-reliability)^n
14:02
< Orthia>
argh, can't explain.
14:06
< Orthia>
OK
14:06
< Orthia>
I have a reliability for an overall system.
14:07
< Orthia>
Say, .6 for everything so far.
14:07
< Orthia>
I want to add 1 of item X, which has a reliability of, say, .8.
14:07
< Orthia>
I know how many of item X I already have added.
14:07
<@jerith>
"dynamic programming"?
14:07
< Orthia>
What the /heck/ does that do to the above formula?
14:08
< Orthia>
In the situations of "Zero" and "At least one"?
14:08 * Orthia suspects this is a Math question.
14:11
<@TheWatcher>
um
14:11
<@TheWatcher>
Are all items in the system item X, with the same reliability?
14:12
< Orthia>
No, they are not.
14:12
< Orthia>
Although actually I could possibly rig it so... hm...
14:12 * Orthia goes back, stares at goats a bit longer
14:13
<@TheWatcher>
I was wondering, as n=1 is .8, n=2 is .96, and so on tending to 1.
14:13
< Orthia>
OK. You have a baseline reliability W. You are going to add n items X to it, until you run outta money, then store the whole thing and throw away the old set.
14:20
< Orthia>
Does that make the math easier?
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15:25
<@ToxicFrog>
jerith: memoization, basically.
15:25
<@ToxicFrog>
Solving a problem that can be divided into overlapping subproblems by precaching the solutions to the subproblems.
15:27
<@ToxicFrog>
Orthia: reliability of one item == chance it doesn't fail? Reliability of all items == chance at least one of them doesn't fail?
15:28
< Orthia>
correct
15:29
<@jerith>
ToxicFrog: Ah, cool. I've only really heard the term used for genetic algorithms and/or self-modifying code.
15:30
<@ToxicFrog>
jerith: yeah, I've seen it used for that too, but strictly speaking it means neither.
15:32
<@ToxicFrog>
Orthia: if you have a reliability W and an item with reliability X, the reliability of the entire system is 1 - (1-W)(1-X).
15:33
<@ToxicFrog>
If you're adding n items, it's 1 - (1-W)(1-X)^n, or if they have different reliabilities, 1 - (1-W)(1-X1)(1-X2)...(1-Xn)
15:34
<@ToxicFrog>
Basically, you invert reliability to get "chance all of them fail". Then you just multiply together normally, and when done, turn it back into reliability.
15:36
< Orthia>
hm
15:37
< Orthia>
So if I have a base reliability
15:37
< Orthia>
And want to add an extra item in paralell, I multiply the whole thing by... wait, no. Augh. *sets it on fire*
15:40
< Orthia>
http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/258
15:42
< Orthia>
http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/259
15:49
<@ToxicFrog>
Um.
15:50
<@ToxicFrog>
Ok. Reliability is the probability that at least one of them will keep working, right?
15:52 * ToxicFrog pokes Orthia
15:53
<@jerith>
Reliability is the probability that *all* of them will keep working, no?
15:54
<@ToxicFrog>
jerith: that's howI'd define it, but that's not how this project seems to, which is why I'm double checking.
15:54
<@ToxicFrog>
And this makes sense as a reliability formula for, say, a RAID1.
15:56
< Orthia>
OK, I have two reliabilities I am playing with
15:57
< Orthia>
I have components of a single type, which are placed in paralell. Their reliability depends on at least one component remaining functional.
15:57
<@jerith>
Ah.
15:57
< Orthia>
I then have several of these component clusters linked in series. This overall reliability depends on at least one component in /each/ cluster remaining functional.
15:57
<@jerith>
That makes sense.
15:58
<@ToxicFrog>
Ok.
15:58
< Orthia>
The first thing, wherein the type has been found in the stack previously, is when I am adding another device in paralell.
15:58
<@ToxicFrog>
Set aside the algorithm for the moment, we're just discussing the math.
15:58
<@jerith>
1-(1-X)(1-Y)(1-Z) is for serial.
15:58
< Orthia>
The second formula, wherein the type has not been found, is adding a new device in series.
15:58
<@ToxicFrog>
jerith: er what
15:58
< Orthia>
The formula written for both of them is currently identical because I had no idea what I was doing~
15:59
<@ToxicFrog>
Reliability of serial is the factor of the reliabilities of all of the clusters.
15:59
<@jerith>
Oh, that's parallel.
15:59
<@ToxicFrog>
If each cluster has a 1/2 survival rate, the survival rate of three clusters in parallel is (1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2) == 1/8
15:59
<@jerith>
Serial is XYZ.
15:59
<@ToxicFrog>
Er.
15:59
<@ToxicFrog>
Three clusters in series, sorry.
16:00 * jerith nods.
16:00
<@ToxicFrog>
Orthia: ok, so. When reliability requires _all_ of the components to keep working, you just multiply the reliabilities together.
16:00
<@jerith>
So you just multiply them all together to get the serial reliability.
16:00
< Orthia>
That makes sense.
16:00
<@jerith>
For each parallel set, you use 1-(1-X)(1-Y)(...)
16:01
<@ToxicFrog>
Intuitively: if you add something with a 50% survival rate, the overall survival rate is halved, because if that fails the whole thing fails.
16:01
< Orthia>
Right.
16:01
<@ToxicFrog>
For parallel, it works like so.
16:01
<@ToxicFrog>
Say you have a reliability of 80%.
16:01
< Orthia>
ok
16:01
<@ToxicFrog>
This is equivalent to saying that there's a 20% chance of all of the components failing.
16:02
< Orthia>
First item is whole system *.8.
16:02
<@ToxicFrog>
Now you add something with reliability 50%.
16:02
< Orthia>
OK
16:02
<@ToxicFrog>
Even if that 20% chance of the rest failing comes up, there's still a 50/50 chance that this component will keep working.
16:03
<@ToxicFrog>
The failure rate goes down to 10% - or, conversely, reliability goes up to 90%.
16:03
<@ToxicFrog>
Sense-making?
16:03
< Orthia>
Conceptually, yes.
16:03
<@ToxicFrog>
Ok.
16:03
< Orthia>
Mathematically... maybe.
16:03
<@ToxicFrog>
So, for things in parallel, it works like this:
16:04
<@ToxicFrog>
- convert all survival rates into failure rates by subtracting from 1
16:04
<@ToxicFrog>
- multiply all failure rates together to get the chance of everything failing
16:04
<@ToxicFrog>
- subtract that from 1 to get the chance of not-everything failing
16:05
<@ToxicFrog>
More generally, if you have a bunch of things, each one with probability Pn that they have some property, the odds that they all have that property are P1*P2*P3*...*Pn.
16:06
<@ToxicFrog>
(call that Pall)
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16:06
<@ToxicFrog>
This means that the probability that at least one of them doesn't have that property is 1 - Pall -- if there's a 1 in 36 chance of the dice coming up 1,1, there's a 35/36 chance that they'll come up something else.
16:07 * AnnoDomini programs in assembly a keyboard handling thingy.
16:07
<@ToxicFrog>
If what you're trying to calculate is the probability that at least one of them has a property, the easiest way to do this is to calculate the probability that all of them don't, and then invert it.
16:07
<@ToxicFrog>
Follow?
16:08
< Orthia>
I think so.
16:08
< Orthia>
So, hm
16:08
< Orthia>
... aha
16:08
< Orthia>
I think I can rig this okay.
16:08
< Orthia>
hum.
16:08 * Orthia thinks.
16:09
<@AnnoDomini>
It seems that I'd need to somehow disable the interrupt buffer for it to work properly, however, since there's some kind of problem with that. Whenever I press something - ANYTHING - I get a long stream of keyboard handler interrupt resolutions, dependant on the period of time I kept my finger on the key.
16:09
< Orthia>
So we have ReliabilitySoFar: If a new device type is being added (in series), RSF*newItem
16:09
< Orthia>
If a device is being added that's already present (In paralell), RSF*(1-newItem)
16:09
<@ToxicFrog>
No.
16:10
< Orthia>
No, that second one is wrong.
16:10
<@ToxicFrog>
Total reliability: product of all cluster reliabilities.
16:11
<@ToxicFrog>
Cluster reliability: 1 - (product of all (1 - reliability of this item))
16:14
< Orthia>
hm
16:15
< Orthia>
Just to be sure, because I have been horrendous at this so far: Does that formula hold for, eg, having 1X, 2Y, and 1Z, and you are now adding an additional Z in paralell with the first?
16:16
<@ToxicFrog>
Ummmm
16:16
<@ToxicFrog>
The formula is for calculating the reliability of the entire system
16:16
< Orthia>
OK.
16:16
< Orthia>
Perhaps I should go to bed and try this in the morning~
16:17
<@ToxicFrog>
If you add a Z, you re-calculate the reliability of the Z cluster, and then the reliability of the whole chain of clusters
16:17
< Orthia>
Aha!
16:17
< Orthia>
hmm.
16:17
< Orthia>
... heey.
16:17
< Orthia>
I know the count of the item present
16:17
<@ToxicFrog>
If they're homogenous, the reliability for a cluster is just 1 - (1-R)^n
16:17
< Orthia>
right
16:17
<@ToxicFrog>
(as you can easily verify yourself)
16:20 * AnnoDomini leaves that silly thing for later, since it's half-finished now and easily converted into something that works, later.
16:20
< Orthia>
Thank you TF
16:21
<@AnnoDomini>
On a different note, I'm looking at an article about programmers' paychecks. It appears that those who know Perl, unix scripts and Visual Basic are the best paid.
16:21
<@ToxicFrog>
Systems administration.
16:23
< Orthia>
Less paid for the programming they know, more paid for the responsibility they control.
16:23
< Orthia>
Some of the ones NR has applied for have minimum equity requirements in the job - do you own your own house, what car do you drive, etc
16:23
< Orthia>
On the basis they want someone unbribable~
16:27
<@jerith>
Less that than a track record of responsibility and such.
16:27
< RichardBarrell>
I'm unbribable monetarily.
16:28
< RichardBarrell>
Bacon is another matter entirely.
16:28
<@jerith>
RichardBarrell: You know that money can buy bacon, right?
16:28
< Namegduf>
I'd give my university password away for a piece of shiny foil.
16:28
< RichardBarrell>
jerith: well yes, but I had hoped that no one else did.
16:28
<@jerith>
I'd also give Namegduf's university password away for a piece of shiny foil.
16:29
< Namegduf>
It's less than I got last time when the incompetent buffoons got their Linux servers compromised.
16:30 * Namegduf wonders if they'll make it into double-day uptime after the last time everything died
16:32 * jerith has just moved into an office that used to belong to an ISP.
16:32
<@jerith>
They've been screwing around with our networks all day.
16:32
<@jerith>
All week, actually.
16:45
< Namegduf>
I think they like to update their servers constantly, or they're just Windows admins and used to rebooting every week or so for no reason.
16:45
< Namegduf>
Doesn't really explain things like "You know we have multiple servers, so a single one failing doesn't kill everything? Yeah, something they both need which isn't the user data storage (because that's still available) just died. We'll fix it in a day."
16:46
< Namegduf>
These are the servers that coursework is written on and supposed to be tested on, so that's wonderful when deadlines are close; also usually grounds for extension.
16:46
< Namegduf>
That's what happened last time they went down.
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17:07
< celticminstrel>
Alek
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18:40
< Alek>
cm, what?
18:44
< celticminstrel>
PM
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23:51 shade_of_cpux is now known as cpux
23:51 Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus
--- Log closed Thu Apr 22 00:00:12 2010
code logs -> 2010 -> Wed, 21 Apr 2010< code.20100420.log - code.20100422.log >