| --- Log opened Sun Mar 21 00:00:40 2010 |
| 00:01 | < Namegduf> | The interesting part for me is when it becomes "Use continue, or use another indentation level for the rest of everything" |
| 00:01 | < Namegduf> | In which case you're trading less conditional on top of conditional on top of conditional, which I find makes things harder to follow, for non-straightforward code flow. |
| 00:01 | < Namegduf> | Or visa versa. |
| 00:02 | < Namegduf> | I tend to pick situationally, there. |
| 00:02 | < Namegduf> | And go for a pattern, obviously. |
| 00:02 | < Namegduf> | A line of if (blah) continue; at the start isn't so bad. |
| 00:02 | < Namegduf> | A single random continue; somewhere... |
| 00:03 | < celticminstrel> | I tend to have rather long code lines. |
| 00:04 | < celticminstrel> | I also tend to not put a line break between the "template< ... >" and the actual function prototype. |
| 00:04 | < celticminstrel> | Unless it simply won't all fit on one line, that is. |
| 00:04 | | * celticminstrel is trying to do PHP redirection now. |
| 00:04 | < Namegduf> | "// Panic, the world is corrupted and all is lost." |
| 00:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | I tend to make lines of code as long as they are necessary. |
| 00:04 | < Namegduf> | I improved "// This shouldn't happen" |
| 00:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | But I do tend to break them up if they take up more than the width of the window. |
| 00:05 | < Namegduf> | I "try". |
| 00:05 | < celticminstrel> | As do I. |
| 00:05 | < celticminstrel> | ^ to Anno |
| 00:05 | < Namegduf> | Java makes going for perfection rather futile |
| 00:05 | < celticminstrel> | Java is annoying sometimes. |
| 00:05 | < celticminstrel> | Maybe that's why I don't use it much. |
| 00:05 | < Namegduf> | "InputStreamReader blah = new InputStreamReader(foobar);" at a decent indentation level is already quite damn long, and that's just creating a new variable |
| 00:06 | < Namegduf> | I like languages with "blah := new InputStreamReader(foobar);" for that kind of thing. |
| 00:06 | < Namegduf> | In which the type of blah is inferred from the righthand side. |
| 00:06 | < Namegduf> | Also, I don't see the point of the new keyword, I should read up and find out why it's really there. |
| 00:07 | < Tarinaky> | In practice I find that template won't fit comfortably on the ssame line as the function prototype. |
| 00:07 | < Tarinaky> | So in the interest of consistency I put a line break in every time. |
| 00:07 | | * AnnoDomini works in full screen. |
| 00:07 | < Tarinaky> | Since even if it will fit it'll only be 4 characters short of a wrap anyway. |
| 00:07 | | * Tarinaky uses a text editor scaled to a very narrow size. |
| 00:08 | | * Tarinaky find short lines easier to read. |
| 00:08 | < Tarinaky> | *finds |
| 00:08 | < Tarinaky> | Short staccatto (sp?) lines. |
| 00:08 | < Namegduf> | Me too. |
| 00:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | Whereas I like seeing as much code on a screen as possible. |
| 00:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | I tend to use wide fonts. |
| 00:09 | < celticminstrel> | Correct spelling, Tarinaky. |
| 00:09 | < celticminstrel> | Oh wait. |
| 00:09 | < Namegduf> | What're the kinda policies people here have about non-straightforward code flow, good/bad ways to use break/continue and friends? |
| 00:10 | < celticminstrel> | Sorry, it's just one T, according to my spell-checker. |
| 00:10 | < celticminstrel> | Language? |
| 00:10 | < Namegduf> | Any, I guess. If it varies by language I'd be interested in how. |
| 00:10 | | Attilla_ [Attilla@FBC920.642D35.7B2B85.11BB86] has joined #code |
| 00:10 | < Namegduf> | "Goto outside of a very clear, preferrably well-commented pattern, and only when there's no better way to do that pattern, is evil." is the only real one I've figured for sure. |
| 00:11 | < celticminstrel> | The only variants I'm aware of are C++ and Java. |
| 00:11 | < Tarinaky> | "Never use goto unless terrorists have kidnapped your daughter and are threatening to kill her - and even then only for as long as it takes for you to go Commando and save her." |
| 00:11 | < celticminstrel> | And the only difference is that Java allows labelled breaks/continues, which in C++ would have to be done with goto. |
| 00:11 | < Namegduf> | By "well-commented pattern" I'm mostly thinking about error handling in C, for which using it to jump to an error handling block at the end of a function before returning can be the clearest way of getting cleanup in all cases, I think. |
| 00:12 | | * AnnoDomini tries to find good examples of LINQ to SQL with more than two tables used. |
| 00:12 | <@AnnoDomini> | I need to select from four. :/ |
| 00:12 | < celticminstrel> | Using goto to break out of several loops at once is reasonable too. |
| 00:12 | < Tarinaky> | I try to avoid using continue and break. |
| 00:12 | < Namegduf> | celticminstrel: Ah, yes, when multilevel break isn't available. |
| 00:12 | < Tarinaky> | Although this is probably to my detriment. |
| 00:12 | < celticminstrel> | I don't. |
| 00:12 | < Namegduf> | I don't, but I wonder if that (ready use of continue/break) is to my detriment. |
| 00:13 | | Attilla [Attilla@FBC920.398CA6.E1414C.85D335] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:13 | < Tarinaky> | If it's the right tool for the job, it's the right tool for the job. |
| 00:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | continue is a pretty natural way of doing filters in languages that don't have it (or on inputs that you can't filter with your language construct for it) |
| 00:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Break, similarly, is useful when the termination condition can't be cleanly expressed as part of the loop itself. |
| 00:14 | | Attilla_ is now known as Attilla |
| 00:14 | < Namegduf> | But using them midloop... less than elegant? |
| 00:15 | < celticminstrel> | Not necessarily? |
| 00:15 | < celticminstrel> | Depends? |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Depends. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's no such thing as a bad language feature*, just bad usage. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | * Probably |
| 00:17 | < Namegduf> | COMEFROM. |
| 00:17 | < celticminstrel> | Not even export? |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...I am not willing to categorically state that there is no situation in which COMEFROM is the right tool. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although cron knows I can't think of any. |
| 00:17 | < Namegduf> | Haha, okay. |
| 00:17 | < Namegduf> | Makes sense as a stance. |
| 00:18 | < Namegduf> | Would not stop me murdering anyone who used it if it existed in any codebase I'd murder over. |
| 00:18 | < celticminstrel> | ..what's COMEFROM? |
| 00:18 | < Namegduf> | It's a reverse GOTO |
| 00:18 | < celticminstrel> | ... |
| 00:19 | <@AnnoDomini> | I imagine it like a verbose RET. :P |
| 00:19 | < Namegduf> | "COMEFROM is roughly the opposite of GOTO in that it can take the execution state from any arbitrary point in code to a COMEFROM statement. The point in code where the state transfer happens is usually given as a parameter to COMEFROM. Whether the transfer happens before or after the instruction at the specified transfer point depends on the language used." |
| 00:19 | < Namegduf> | "Depending on the language used, multiple COMEFROMs referencing the same departure point may be invalid, be non-deterministic, be executed in some sort of defined priority, or even induce parallel or otherwise concurrent execution as seen in Threaded Intercal." |
| 00:19 | < celticminstrel> | Doesn't sound very useful. |
| 00:20 | < Namegduf> | "Intercal" is the hint. |
| 00:20 | < Namegduf> | It was a joke feature added because it was such a horrible pain. |
| 00:20 | < Namegduf> | Oooh, that'd be a challenge. |
| 00:20 | < celticminstrel> | ? |
| 00:20 | < Namegduf> | To write maintainable Intercal. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | I could see uses for it in debugging or monkeypatching, although in those cases the real question is "why doesn't this language have features that are better suited for implementing this" |
| 00:20 | < Namegduf> | Develop patterns to maintain and look after a decently sized Intercal codebase. |
| 00:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Step one, write a compiler that takes a real language and emits intercal~ |
| 00:21 | < Namegduf> | Haha. |
| 00:21 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-0878cfcd.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 00:24 | <@AnnoDomini> | Orthia: Post in Nuke. |
| 00:27 | <@AnnoDomini> | GNRGNARD. |
| 00:32 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:34 | <@AnnoDomini> | Alright, fuck the lack of extensible examples. |
| 00:34 | | * AnnoDomini goes do something horribly inefficient which will hopefully get the job done. |
| 00:36 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 00:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | Unfortunately, the join syntax seems to be made of spiders. |
| 00:47 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hatehatehatehate. |
| 00:49 | < Namegduf> | It hates you. |
| 00:50 | <@Vornicus> | you shoulcn't need to use JOIN if you've got an ORM running. |
| 00:52 | <@AnnoDomini> | A what? |
| 00:52 | < Namegduf> | Object to database layer thigny |
| 00:52 | <@Vornicus> | ORM: Object-relational model, a thing that turns a database into what appears to be a pile of objects. |
| 00:52 | < Namegduf> | Ah, right. |
| 00:52 | <@AnnoDomini> | Okay, FINALLY. I've found an example that doesn't looked like it was typed by a drunken monkey. |
| 00:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | -ed |
| 00:54 | <@AnnoDomini> | I have no idea why the tutorials almost invariably assume that single-letter names for variables are a good thing in situations where there are very many different things close to each other. |
| 01:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hmmmm. |
| 01:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | Testing it on another page shows that nothing is overtly wrong. |
| 01:04 | <@AnnoDomini> | But it fails utterly when used in an iterator. |
| 01:05 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | Oh, I see. |
| 01:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | I forgot a field. |
| 01:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | And the mass of garbage called an error message obscured the reason. |
| 01:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | Now onto the remaining three or four pages. |
| 01:13 | | * AnnoDomini finds a comment. |
| 01:13 | <@AnnoDomini> | // this is a work in progress |
| 01:14 | <@AnnoDomini> | I put it there like half a year ago. |
| 01:21 | < Namegduf> | Listening to Weird Al actually makes Java enjoyable. |
| 01:21 | < Namegduf> | I've no idea what what says about anything. |
| 01:21 | <@AnnoDomini> | Pavlov was right. |
| 01:22 | < Namegduf> | I think I failed my Knowledge - Psychology, Russian check. |
| 01:22 | < Namegduf> | And a Knowledge - Wikipedia check. |
| 01:23 | <@AnnoDomini> | You play DnD? |
| 01:23 | < Namegduf> | Played 1E and 2E before. |
| 01:23 | < Namegduf> | Was going to get into a 3E campaign, but never did; I just follow the humour anyway. :P |
| 01:23 | <@AnnoDomini> | Ha. |
| 01:24 | < Namegduf> | I did read through the rule, a few examples of other rules, and the guide to creating Pun-Pun. |
| 01:26 | <@AnnoDomini> | The rule? You mean the core mechanic? :P |
| 01:26 | | * AnnoDomini is done. |
| 01:26 | < Namegduf> | Er, rules |
| 01:26 | < Namegduf> | Core rules. |
| 01:26 | <@AnnoDomini> | I see. |
| 01:26 | < Namegduf> | You don't need to read The Rule. |
| 01:27 | | * AnnoDomini got into roleplaying via 3.5e. |
| 01:28 | <@AnnoDomini> | It's half to three in the morning, but I'm done with converting my project to LINQ to SQL. |
| 01:28 | < Namegduf> | "Half to three"... |
| 01:28 | < Namegduf> | Your means of measuring time is awesome, if you're in GMT. |
| 01:28 | <@AnnoDomini> | I have belatedly learned how to use joins. |
| 01:28 | <@AnnoDomini> | Namegduf: I'm not in GMT. Close, however. |
| 01:29 | < Namegduf> | Ah, okay. |
| 01:29 | < Namegduf> | +1, then. |
| 01:29 | <@AnnoDomini> | What's so awesome about half to three? |
| 01:29 | < Namegduf> | Well, it's 1:30 GMT. |
| 01:30 | <@AnnoDomini> | Ahahaha. |
| 01:30 | < Namegduf> | Which would imply that you're measuring time specifically around 3AM. |
| 01:30 | <@AnnoDomini> | My project is now injection-proof, thanks to the new technology. |
| 01:31 | <@AnnoDomini> | Up until now, I've been using WHERE clauses rather than JOINS to achieve the same effect. |
| 01:31 | <@AnnoDomini> | I did not pay much attention in the databases class. |
| 01:32 | <@Kazriko> | and crossjoins? |
| 01:32 | <@Kazriko> | from blah,blah2? |
| 01:32 | <@AnnoDomini> | Uhhhh. |
| 01:33 | <@AnnoDomini> | I can confidently say that I've never used a crossjoin in my life. |
| 01:33 | <@Kazriko> | you can accomplish a join using that and a where statement. |
| 01:33 | <@Kazriko> | not recommended though. |
| 01:36 | <@AnnoDomini> | Well, I used WHERE exclusively. |
| 01:40 | < celticminstrel> | There are very few good reasons to use a cross join, and I can't think of what they are. |
| 01:40 | | * AnnoDomini goes to remove the rubbish that got inserted into the database through testing. |
| 01:42 | <@Vornicus> | cartesian product/minkowsky sum |
| 01:50 | < celticminstrel> | I know what a cross join is... |
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| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | "I'm not a real programmer. I throw together things until it works then I move on. The real programmers will say "yeah it works but you're leaking memory everywhere. Perhaps we should fix that." I'll just restart apache every 10 requests." |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | -- Rasmus Lerdorf, inventor of PHP |
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| 03:41 | < Namegduf> | Hmm. |
| 03:41 | < Namegduf> | Coding at past 3AM... |
| 03:42 | < Namegduf> | I'm looking at these lines I wrote within the last five minutes. I've documented this method as "Open the door" and nothing else. Its signature is "public static void main(String[] args)" |
| 03:42 | < Namegduf> | And I literally have no memory of writing those words. |
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| 19:09 | < gnolam> | http://i.imgur.com/RQcCi.jpg |
| 19:09 | < Namegduf> | XD |
| 19:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | LOL Poland. |
| 19:29 | <@Vornicus> | ...a sql injection attack on automated license plate scanners. |
| 19:29 | <@Vornicus> | awesome. |
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| 20:56 | < celticminstrel> | Aaaand Chrome just crashed. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Mar 22 00:00:41 2010 |