| --- Log opened Wed Feb 10 00:00:41 2010 |
| 00:01 | < Derakon[work]> | Heh. Last time GLUT was updated for Windows was nine years ago. |
| 00:02 | <@McMartin> | SDL/OpenGL, for *serious* |
| 00:02 | <@McMartin> | GLU, on the other hand, is "seriously critical support functions" |
| 00:02 | < Derakon[work]> | McM: I'm aiming for "what's the minimal amount of change I can make to this to get it to work". |
| 00:02 | < Derakon[work]> | Massive rearchitecting is, sadly, not in the cards. |
| 00:02 | | * TheWatcher suspects that derakon really doesn't have the time or resources to retool the opengl stuff to use SDL |
| 00:03 | <@McMartin> | No, I mean |
| 00:03 | <@McMartin> | SDL replaces GLUT, not OpenGL. |
| 00:03 | <@McMartin> | GLUT is a (shitty) windowing system and event handler |
| 00:03 | <@McMartin> | SDL has an "open this window as an OpenGL context" flag that is then used as OpenGL |
| 00:03 | <@McMartin> | However, neither will play right with wx |
| 00:03 | <@TheWatcher> | He's not using it for the windows afaict - just some of the functions provided by glut |
| 00:04 | < Derakon[work]> | AFAICT the only wx calls in this function are creating a drawing context (required even if you never use it) and the drawtext function calls I wish to replace. |
| 00:04 | < Derakon[work]> | Mind, the class I'm in is a descendant of wxGLCanvas. |
| 00:09 | < Derakon[work]> | Okay, so with SDL it'd basically be: initialize SDL, use SDL's text drawing functions to make an SDL Surface with the text I want on it, pull the texture out of that Surface, and draw it using glTexImage2D. |
| 00:09 | < Derakon[work]> | Based on http://gpwiki.org/index.php/SDL:Tutorials:Using_SDL_with_OpenGL |
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| 02:20 | < celticminstrel> | I've been wondering... can SDL open multiple windows? |
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| 02:22 | <@McMartin> | I do not believe so |
| 02:23 | <@McMartin> | It's really designed to simulate pre-modern full-screen GUIs. |
| 02:25 | < celticminstrel> | That's what I thought. |
| 02:26 | < Tarinaky> | More than a few GUI packages let you draw SDL surfaces in their windows though. |
| 02:26 | < Tarinaky> | So you could probably fake it somehow. |
| 02:28 | <@McMartin> | Yes, but for most "traditional" usage of those those GUI packages will also have reasonable canvas widgets that will do just as well |
| 02:29 | < gnolam> | I believe there's multiwindow support in SDL 1.3. |
| 02:30 | < gnolam> | But that still hasn't reached a stable release. |
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| 03:02 | <@Kazriko> | McMartin, I tend to use wx's glcanvas instead of glut myself. |
| 03:03 | <@Kazriko> | (I'm thinking of making a 2d chart drawing program with it.) |
| 03:22 | | Bobsentme [NSwebIRC@051596.69129A.C96753.910884] has joined #code |
| 03:23 | < Bobsentme> | Is there something inherent in Java that makes programmers completely oblivious to other languages? |
| 03:23 | <@Derakon> | Would you count "Is used as the new beginner language" as "inherent"? |
| 03:23 | < Bobsentme> | maybe. |
| 03:24 | <@Derakon> | Then yes. |
| 03:24 | < Bobsentme> | fair enough |
| 03:24 | <@Derakon> | Beginners tend to avoid trying to learn new languages, because they have enough trouble with the one they've learned. |
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| 03:24 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by Reiver |
| 03:24 | < Bobsentme> | Well, here's my problem: School project is all about a java program the organizes web pages. You click through "thoughts", and it builds the pages dynamically. |
| 03:25 | < Bobsentme> | this is well and good, and I understand the point of it. Problem is, you can't use anything other than JSP with it. |
| 03:26 | < Bobsentme> | My instructor / overall project person inquired into using anything else, even php. Was met with a resounding "No, and I don't see why anyone would want to use that!" |
| 03:27 | <@Derakon> | Well, PHP does tend to get discriminated against. |
| 03:27 | < Bobsentme> | yeah. |
| 03:30 | < Bobsentme> | I mean, I know there are similarities in programming languages,, and proper logic is far more important than anything else...but...well...Java makes me feel like I'm flinging feces at a trampoline. Even if I hit my mark, there's still a huge mess. |
| 03:35 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 03:35 | <@Derakon> | I really don't think Java is suitable as an introductory language. |
| 03:35 | <@Derakon> | It's a language you should learn once you've figured programming out and are able to tolerate a lot of verbosity. |
| 03:41 | < Serah> | One of these days, I'm going to have to do a /nick Bobsentmesentme. Your nick is awesome, mate. |
| 03:42 | < gnolam> | The verbosity isn't the problem. The boilerplate is. |
| 03:42 | < gnolam> | When teaching something, you want to get away with as little handwaving as possible. |
| 03:42 | <@Derakon> | Gnolam: ehh, I count boilerplate in as verbosity here. |
| 03:43 | <@McMartin> | I tend to hold that you also want to be as high-level as possible, and until SICP gets rewritten in Python like they keep threatening to do, there are no actually in-use languages that are high level enough to not make the TA's lives hell while still being general enough to let you teach the content |
| 03:44 | <@McMartin> | Even at higher levels, I've run the same class in C++ and Java and the difference was night and day |
| 03:45 | <@Derakon> | I imagine it must be nice to not have a dozen students showing up to every office hours session with "My program is segfaulting and I don't know why." |
| 03:46 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: Particularly when the answer is "gcc's implementation of STL at this point in time is actually buggy and you shouldn't use it" "BUT YOU SAID WE COULD PROGRAM IN C++" |
| 03:46 | < Bobsentme> | hehe |
| 03:47 | <@McMartin> | (This was in '03 or so) |
| 03:47 | | * Bobsentme remembers his programming classes and nods knowingly. |
| 03:48 | < Bobsentme> | Half the kids wanted to know what they could hack now that they knew C. The others were busy rubbing their temples. |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | But anyway, yes; office hours in the Java class were about the subject of the class |
| 03:49 | <@McMartin> | Office hours in the C++ class were about memory debugging and the actual nominal topic never came up |
| 03:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I would argue that Python is high-level enough to not make the TA's lives hell while still being general enough; your objection appears to be that there isn't a SICP edition for it, not that the language itself is unsuited. |
| 03:53 | | * ToxicFrog , personally, sees no problem teaching them in Scheme anyways |
| 03:53 | <@Derakon> | TF: as he said, the course hasn't been rewritten for Python yet. |
| 03:56 | <@McMartin> | And that they keep threatening to because one or two of the three authors want to but keep getting overridden, IIRC. |
| 03:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | If anything, I'd almost rather see it taught in Scheme; you're going to pick up Python anyways, sooner or later, but Scheme bends your mind in ways Python doesn't and you're less likely to learn it by accident. |
| 04:05 | <@Derakon> | I suppose that depends on how much you want to teach students to use languages that they may actually use in the industry. |
| 04:07 | <@Derakon> | IMO the first language that students learn should be something they may use out in the real world, since there's thousands of scientists out there who only take one CS course and then need to be able to program as part of their jobs. |
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| 04:08 | <@Kazriko> | I learned 4 languages before I took a CS course... and a 5th during the course. :) |
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| 04:08 | | * McMartin was raised amongst robots that did his bidding |
| 04:09 | | * McMartin counts |
| 04:09 | <@Kazriko> | Atari 130xe assembler, various forms of basic, Pascal and Forth, then C++ for the csci course. |
| 04:09 | <@McMartin> | Several dialects of BASIC, two flavors of assembly, C, a now-defunct language that called itself C++, scraps of some LISP dialects |
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| 04:10 | <@McMartin> | Then formal training in Pascal in 1992 and at that point I become accredited |
| 04:10 | <@Derakon> | Lessee...before my first course, I guess I just had BASIC, C, and whatever that turtle language was. |
| 04:10 | <@McMartin> | LOGO |
| 04:10 | <@Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 04:10 | <@McMartin> | That's a LISP dialect |
| 04:10 | <@Derakon> | And that was mostly just following recipes. |
| 04:10 | <@Kazriko> | After C++ the school taught me Java, lisp, and a bit of perl... I only still use C++ from what the school taught me. |
| 04:11 | <@Kazriko> | I learned oberon, modula, python, and a bit of ruby on my own during college. |
| 04:11 | <@McMartin> | Modula3, surely |
| 04:11 | <@Kazriko> | Yeah.. |
| 04:11 | <@Kazriko> | Oberon-2 |
| 04:11 | <@Kazriko> | I didn't use modula3 for anything useful though. |
| 04:12 | | * McMartin picked up two flavors of ML and Haskell on his own, though that's just for side projects |
| 04:12 | <@Kazriko> | mainly for a project where every student picked an arbitrary language to learn. |
| 04:12 | <@McMartin> | I seem to have a functional-programming accent everywhere though |
| 04:13 | <@Kazriko> | I've now learned a great many specialized languages. X_x |
| 04:13 | <@Kazriko> | Every manufacturer of automation equipment has their own slightly different language. |
| 04:22 | | * Kazriko needs to replace his aging firewall. |
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| 04:29 | < celticminstrel> | The only languages I learned anything about before taking a programming course were UCB Logo, Hypertalk, Applescript, and Usertalk. And possibly one or two others that were only useful for scripting in a particular program. If there were others, I've forgotten about them. |
| 04:29 | < celticminstrel> | McMartin/Derakon: Logo is Lisp without the parentheses, and with infix operators. <.< Personally, I don't consider it a Lisp dialect, but meh. |
| 04:33 | <@McMartin> | celticminstrel: And dynamic instead of lexical binding |
| 04:33 | | * Derakon idly ponders an automated hang glider-tracking system for cameras. |
| 04:33 | <@Derakon> | Pretty basic "camera on servos" setup with some motion tracking, I guess. |
| 04:33 | <@Derakon> | Problem being that you need a good zoom lens to deal with hang gliders. |
| 04:36 | <@Derakon> | Which I guess means having computer-controlled lenses too, which I suspect would be even more expensive than the normal kind. Oh, well... |
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| 04:48 | < Bobsentme> | Derakon: If you plan on mounting any type of weapon on the cameras, go for the high end servos that can handle some weight. :P |
| 04:48 | <@Derakon> | Har. |
| 04:49 | < Bobsentme> | Seriously though, why a hang glider tracker? |
| 04:49 | <@Derakon> | Because getting video of me doing bunnyhill runs is a bit difficult right now. |
| 04:51 | < Bobsentme> | Ah. |
| 04:52 | < Bobsentme> | Good reason then. I was worried it was something nefarious. |
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| 04:58 | < Tarinaky> | Nefarious? Nothing nefarious about wanting to keep secret agents off your Hidden Base Secret Volcano Island. |
| 04:58 | <@Derakon> | Man, volcanos have the best thermals. |
| 04:59 | < Tarinaky> | Hey, awesome idea. You know how you get water cooled computers? |
| 04:59 | < Tarinaky> | Know what's cooler than water? |
| 04:59 | <@Derakon> | Ice? |
| 04:59 | < Tarinaky> | Or rather - if water's cool. Lava is just plain damn awesome! |
| 04:59 | < Tarinaky> | :p |
| 04:59 | <@Derakon> | You're not gonna make a magma-cooled computer. |
| 05:00 | < Tarinaky> | It'd be cool for a bit. |
| 05:00 | < Tarinaky> | For a given definition of 'cool'. |
| 05:00 | < Bobsentme> | That sounds a lot like the time my coworker at McDonalds told me to cover my finger in mustard and stick it in the deep fryer because, "It feels cold for a moment!" |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | ;_; |
| 05:01 | < Tarinaky> | >.> you're missing the joke. |
| 05:01 | | * Bobsentme did not do it. |
| 05:01 | < Tarinaky> | "if water's cool. Lava is just plain damn awesome!" |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | Yes, so you said. |
| 05:01 | < Tarinaky> | >.> nm. |
| 05:01 | | * Bobsentme thinks you left a "Wakka Wakka Wakka!" off that. |
| 05:01 | < Tarinaky> | I'll just sit here giggling quietly to myself. |
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| 05:03 | < Bobsentme> | Ok, it wasn't THAT bad. |
| 05:40 | <@Kazriko> | Even sillier would be a lava lamp cooled computer... |
| 05:40 | <@Kazriko> | Just put the bottle on top of the CPU with some arctic silver... |
| 05:43 | <@Kazriko> | bbl, resizing filesystems now that I've shifted my software raids over to larger drives. |
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| 09:46 | <@Kazriko> | took 3 hours, but it's much nicer to have all my partitions at 41% or lower utilization... |
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| 14:21 | <@jerith> | Dear people who design APIs, |
| 14:22 | <@jerith> | When all your other dates are in ISO-8601 format, please don't suddenly use 'MM.DD.YYYY' for something. |
| 14:23 | <@jerith> | If this is unavoidable for some reason, it would be helpful to document this format so that developers writing clients for your API are not suddenly presented with an ambiguous date string that they have never encountered before. |
| 14:23 | <@jerith> | Yours in eternal hope, jerith. |
| --- Log closed Wed Feb 10 14:39:49 2010 |
| --- Log opened Wed Feb 10 14:59:46 2010 |
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| 14:59 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 20 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 13 normal] |
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| 15:52 | | * gnolam stabs Firefox. |
| 15:54 | | * EvilDarkLord stabs gnolam. |
| 16:07 | < gnolam> | Do I stubbornly use my own CSS3 names even when they're identical to the spec? No. |
| 16:15 | | * gnolam also stabs the Wayback Machine. |
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| 17:17 | | * Derakon[work] codes some C++ for the first time in ages. |
| 17:17 | < Derakon[work]> | Why the hell is it "int foo[15]" instead of "int[15] foo" anyway? |
| 17:19 | <@TheWatcher> | I always think of it as foo is a pointer to the first element, and there are 15 elements in the array, rather than "15 ints called foo" |
| 17:19 | <@TheWatcher> | So, to me, c/c++'s syntax makes sense. But then, I'm also insane, so. |
| 17:19 | < Derakon[work]> | Even then I think it makes more sense to attach the array size to the type than to the name. |
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| 17:38 | < Derakon[work]> | Excellent. I've verified that using GLUT for text drawing instead of wx prevents the flicker problem. |
| 17:38 | < Derakon[work]> | Now I just have to fix the segfault that is doubtless caused by running past the end of the char arrays I'm using to store the text being drawn~ |
| 17:38 | < Derakon[work]> | (And also change the text color away from 0x00FF00) |
| 17:42 | < Derakon[work]> | As for the naming thing, since the type of the variable normally indicates how much size it requires, shouldn't the size of the array be with the type? |
| 17:42 | < Derakon[work]> | s/size it requires/memory it takes up/ |
| 17:56 | < gnolam> | Naming thing? |
| 18:04 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm arguing that "int[15] foo" makes more sense as a declaration than "int foo[15]". |
| 19:14 | < gnolam> | It does. |
| 19:16 | < celticminstrel> | It does indeed make more sense to attach the array size to the type, but C++'s syntax is strange that way. Functions are even worse. |
| 19:16 | < Derakon[work]> | I suspect the only reason C/C++ use the "foo[15]" syntax is so that multiple variables can be declared on the same line. |
| 19:16 | < Derakon[work]> | Otherwise you couldn't do "int i, j, foo[15], *k, ***l;", and then where would we be? |
| 19:20 | <@jerith> | THREE STAR PROGRAMMING! |
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| 19:23 | | * Derakon[work] tries to figure out why this change would cause the program to segfault. http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/127 |
| 19:23 | < Derakon[work]> | (Old version, then new version, then diff at the bottom) |
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| 19:28 | < celticminstrel> | I never do anything like that, though, because it'd be ambiguous if you did something like "int* a, b, c;" (in which b and c look like they are declared as pointers, but actually are just ints). |
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| 19:29 | < Derakon[work]> | Celticminstrel: me neither, but the language supports it intentionally, which results in the wart we were discussing. |
| 19:29 | < celticminstrel> | It supports it for C compatibility. |
| 19:30 | < Derakon[work]> | So whoever designed it decided it was more important to be able to declare multiple variables of different types in the same statement than it was to be able to attach "is a pointer" and "is an array" to the type instead of the name. |
| 19:30 | < Derakon[work]> | Celticminstrel: that just pushes it back to whoever made that decision for C, though. |
| 19:30 | < celticminstrel> | True. |
| 19:40 | < gnolam> | Derakon[AFK]: Gah, pointer arithmetic instead of array semantics. That GLUT example must be old. :P |
| 19:40 | < Derakon[work]> | Heh. |
| 19:41 | < Derakon[work]> | (I'm aware that I could re-use the char array, by the way) |
| 19:43 | < Derakon[work]> | Unfortunately I can't get on the scope right now, but when I ran the debugger earlier, I was getting an access violation when glClear is called. Which makes no sense to me. |
| 19:44 | < Derakon[work]> | ...unless maybe I'm drawing a 50-character string off the end of the canvas? Except that shouldn't happen because the string is null-terminated by sprintf, so print_bitmap_string will stop when it gets to the end. |
| 19:46 | < gnolam> | And you have an attached depth buffer? |
| 19:46 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm sorry, what? |
| 19:47 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm really not that familiar with OpenGL. |
| 19:50 | < gnolam> | You're clearing both the color and the depth buffer. If you don't in fact have a depth buffer, I'm not actually sure what will happen. |
| 19:51 | < gnolam> | Hmm. I finally found it in the spec. It's supposed to have no effect then. |
| 19:51 | < Derakon[work]> | Keep in mind that the old version of the code works just fine -- it's just that the text flickers if you rotate the display 90?. |
| 19:51 | < Derakon[work]> | All I've changed in the new version is how the text is displayed, and whitespace. |
| 19:53 | < gnolam> | And is that function all that's being drawn? |
| 19:53 | < Derakon[work]> | For this canvas object, yes. |
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| 23:21 | | * Derakon[work] sighs at this code. |
| 23:21 | < Derakon[work]> | Did you know that exec() destroys the utility of stack traces? |
| 23:22 | < Derakon[work]> | Somewhere in this rotting pile is a call to randrange() with an invalid stop parameter, but I sure as hell can't find it. |
| 23:22 | < Derakon[work]> | It'd be easier if I had a stack trace...but that just ends in "stdin". |
| 23:23 | <@McMartin> | exec() annihilates the entire process, so I suppose I did know that. |
| 23:25 | < Derakon[work]> | (It doesn't help any that I have to use file.write() instead of print because stdin is getting swallowed by exec too) |
| 23:26 | <@McMartin> | Is the parent process waiting on the result of a fork? |
| 23:26 | <@McMartin> | You could get your stack trace in two steps |
| 23:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Hah! Finally got openssl and curl to compile properly |
| 23:27 | < Derakon[work]> | McM: for some reason this app is started in the context of a REPL "shell" that someone (not from our lab) made. |
| 23:28 | < Derakon[work]> | So it's making use of a subclass of InteractiveInterpreter. |
| 23:28 | < Derakon[work]> | ( http://docs.python.org/library/code.html ) |
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| --- Log closed Thu Feb 11 00:00:35 2010 |