| --- Log opened Tue Oct 27 00:00:22 2009 |
| 01:06 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:11 | | * McMartin wonders if he can close his last bug this release before dinner |
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| 06:42 | <@Vornicus> | Hm. Random challenge: create an operator symbol for "roll left" and "roll right" |
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| 06:46 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by Reivles |
| 07:06 | <@Kazriko> | I'd probably start with a perspective drawn line from near to far, then arrows around it left and right also on the same perspective line. A bit tricky. |
| 07:07 | <@Vornicus> | AS in the bitwise operations. |
| 07:07 | <@Kazriko> | Ahh. |
| 07:07 | <@Kazriko> | Need to be clearer. heh. I'm immersed in the world of industrial interfaces... |
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| 07:17 | < gnolam> | Vornicus: what glyphs are we allowed to use? :) |
| 07:19 | <@McMartin> | <<>, >><, by analogy with shift left and right. |
| 07:19 | <@Vornicus> | gnolam: ASCII. And McM's work, I guess |
| 07:20 | <@McMartin> | Hm |
| 07:20 | <@McMartin> | I find them somewhat ugly, tbh |
| 07:20 | <@McMartin> | Hee |
| 07:20 | <@McMartin> | <_<, >_> |
| 07:21 | <@McMartin> | Which is _>> and <<_, rolled. |
| 07:21 | <@McMartin> | (It's also better because those are unidirectional arrows) |
| 07:21 | <@Vornicus> | ...I like those. |
| 07:22 | <@Vornicus> | ...though _ is technically a valid name in most C-shaped langauges. |
| 07:22 | <@McMartin> | Been there, done that; <_< is not the same as < _ <. |
| 07:22 | <@McMartin> | (nested templates in C++) |
| 07:23 | <@McMartin> | where "vector<T<1>>2> >" is unambiguous |
| 07:23 | <@Vornicus> | wh... |
| 07:23 | <@McMartin> | vector is templated on a type, T; |
| 07:23 | <@Vornicus> | vast craziness. |
| 07:23 | <@McMartin> | T is itself a template type which is templated on an integer, here specialized to 1>>2 |
| 07:24 | <@Vornicus> | I get it now, but damn. |
| 07:24 | <@McMartin> | The main thing is that, for instance, vector<basic_string<wchar_t>> is not legal. |
| 07:24 | | * Vornicus wonders why people use / / and < > for delimiters anyway! |
| 07:24 | <@McMartin> | It is required to be vector<basic_string<wchar_t> > |
| 07:24 | <@Vornicus> | ...though I do admit there are shockingly few. |
| 07:25 | <@McMartin> | Hey, Perl will let you use 'e' as a delimeter. |
| 07:25 | | * Vornicus weeps openly. |
| 07:25 | <@AnnoDomini> | There, there, Brad. |
| 07:26 | <@McMartin> | IIRC, the first character after the "m" is the delimiter and it's only '/' by convention (because using '/' means the 'm' is optional) |
| 07:26 | <@McMartin> | It's been awhile, though; I go out of my way to not learn things about Perl. |
| 07:27 | <@McMartin> | (And it could be worse; C's trigraphs are a horrible remnant of the days when many commonly used text encodings could not encode braces.) |
| 07:28 | <@McMartin> | Upon further reflection, <_< is better than <<_ because <_< means that "1<<_" still parses the same way it would in C. |
| 07:29 | <@McMartin> | (And, of course, it's a strictly binary operator yielding a boolean, so a < _ < c isn't legal in the first place, and thus you wnn't see the now-legal-but-not-comparison-based a<_<c) |
| 07:33 | <@Vornicus> | >-> and <-< might work better; there's no ambiguity whatsoever there. |
| 07:55 | <@Vornicus> | well okay technically then you break one of the nice friendly lexer models. |
| 08:07 | <@McMartin> | Yeah; the nice friendly lexer models is why the "usual" case of nested templates is required to look funny |
| 09:18 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 10:38 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by Reivles |
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| 18:16 | | * McMartin stabs MacPorts in the face |
| 18:18 | | Derakon[work] [Derakon@Nightstar-d44d635e.ucsf.edu] has joined #code |
| 18:18 | < Derakon[work]> | Latest bit of madness: my boss wants me to print out the manual for the new 24-port switch we installed. |
| 18:18 | < Derakon[work]> | Said manual is 618 pages long. ?.? |
| 18:19 | < Derakon[work]> | (He's apparently not comfortable with electronic versions of the manuals, and puts a lot more faith in the big binders we have on a bookshelf in the microscope room) |
| 18:22 | <@McMartin> | I... ARGH |
| 18:22 | <@McMartin> | I just want to install some header files |
| 18:22 | <@McMartin> | Why are you building Perl from source as a prereq |
| 18:22 | <@McMartin> | Especially since Perl is already installed because it is a Mac |
| 18:23 | < Derakon[work]> | Because this is FOSS and works on Linux and they can shoehorn Macs into behaving like Linux by just ignoring everything that Macs provide by default. |
| 18:24 | <@McMartin> | What I mean is, "how is Perl possibly even a prereq in the first place" |
| 18:24 | < Derakon[work]> | As for why Perl's needed in the first place, maybe to customize said headers to your system? *shrug* |
| 18:24 | <@McMartin> | I'm building for distribution! |
| 18:25 | <@McMartin> | At this point, I give even odds that the thing I actually wanted won't even build right because it's Snow Leopard, and I will be forced to uninstall 70 packages by hand in exactly the right order |
| 18:40 | <@McMartin> | Oh hey, it built |
| 18:40 | <@McMartin> | Now to see if it plays right with the Cocoa version of Qt. |
| 18:53 | <@McMartin> | In other news, hooray, Windows 7 VPN working |
| 18:53 | <@McMartin> | Answer: No, Qt dies horribly |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | ... because installd segfaulted |
| 18:54 | | * SmithKurosaki laughs |
| 18:54 | < SmithKurosaki> | Poor Mcm |
| 18:55 | | * McMartin goes back to the Win7 laptop. |
| 18:59 | < SmithKurosaki> | Are there any differences between directed and undirected graphs other than arrows? |
| 18:59 | <@McMartin> | That works out to a fairly large conceptual difference, of course, but no |
| 19:01 | < SmithKurosaki> | o0 |
| 19:01 | < SmithKurosaki> | What else is different? |
| 19:03 | < Derakon[work]> | An undirected graph is simply a directed graph with arrows on the ends of each edge. |
| 19:03 | <@McMartin> | It all follows from the arrows. It's easier for a directed graph to be acyclic |
| 19:03 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, Derakon's right that you can consider undirected graphs to be a special kind of directed graph with twice as many edges |
| 19:07 | < SmithKurosaki> | Ahh, that is a better way to look at it considering the math |
| 19:10 | <@McMartin> | If you learn directed first, it's easier to go then to undirected than the other way around |
| 19:13 | < SmithKurosaki> | Hate wireless down here |
| 19:14 | < SmithKurosaki> | He is not going over Dir vs undir, he is just going over different things you can do with graphs |
| 19:47 | < gnolam> | The Graphs (And What To Do With Them) |
| 20:23 | | * Derakon[work] sends the Whitespace Union 0x2a after Sebastian to break his kneecaps. |
| 20:25 | < Derakon[work]> | I don't understand how someone can decide that "if( foo+bar<baz )" is the right way to write an if statement. |
| 20:26 | < Namegduf> | Eww. |
| 20:31 | < Derakon[work]> | Oh, awesome. I just discovered that vim supports multiple copy buffers. |
| 20:31 | < Derakon[work]> | For example, just 'Y' yanks (copies) the current line into the default buffer. |
| 20:31 | < Derakon[work]> | But "aY will yank it into buffer a. |
| 20:32 | < Derakon[work]> | And then "ap will paste the contents of buffer a. |
| 20:32 | | * Derakon[work] <3 vim. |
| 20:36 | < Derakon[work]> | Okay, folks, take a look at this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/303098/ |
| 20:36 | | * McMartin boos for having to go into the office despite already giving WFH notice |
| 20:36 | < Derakon[work]> | Is the "else" statement supposed to execute both of those lines? |
| 20:37 | < gnolam> | The else statement just applies to line 6. Line 7 will be executed no matter what (assuming the condition on line 1 was met). |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | Well, I mean, it will regardless. |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | Also, why are there break statements dominating the exit from this if |
| 20:37 | < Derakon[work]> | Gnolam: oh, I know what it does (at least, syntax-wise). |
| 20:37 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm asking for an interpretation of intent. |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | Does he realize break doesn't work on arbitrary blocks? |
| 20:38 | < Derakon[work]> | Probably not! |
| 20:38 | | * SmithKurosaki hugs Der |
| 20:39 | < gnolam> | Then he probably intended it to apply to both 6 and 7, yes. |
| 20:40 | < gnolam> | Has he written /any/ code that doesn't belong on the Daily WTF? |
| 20:40 | < SmithKurosaki> | from what I have heard, no |
| 20:40 | < Derakon[work]> | Most of it is just a crime against code style guidelines. |
| 20:41 | < Derakon[work]> | And for the most part his algorithms are sound. |
| 20:41 | < Derakon[work]> | Just ass-ugly. |
| 20:41 | | * Tarinaky blinks. |
| 20:41 | < Tarinaky> | What language is that supposed to be? |
| 20:41 | < SmithKurosaki> | Should he be hanged for crimes against codekind? |
| 20:42 | < Derakon[work]> | Tarinaky: C/C++. |
| 20:42 | < Derakon[work]> | And SK: if we hung all of the bad coders out there we'd run out of rope. |
| 20:42 | < Tarinaky> | Ah. Yeah. The nested if confused me and made me think there was a bracket mismatch. |
| 20:42 | < Derakon[work]> | Nope. Just whitespace dumassedness. |
| 20:42 | < Derakon[work]> | Er, dumbassedness. |
| 20:42 | < Derakon[work]> | Dumas has nothing to do with this. |
| 20:43 | < SmithKurosaki> | ;.; |
| 20:44 | < Derakon[work]> | I remain hopeful that I can start turning this trainwreck around at some point. |
| 20:44 | < Tarinaky> | I remain hopeful that I will one day find true love. |
| 20:44 | | * Tarinaky inserts laughter. |
| 20:46 | < SmithKurosaki> | I seek the same Tar |
| 20:46 | < Tarinaky> | asl? :p |
| 20:47 | < SmithKurosaki> | Heh |
| 20:47 | < SmithKurosaki> | Well, I live in ontario |
| 20:48 | < ErikMesoy> | I remain hopeful of true love too. |
| 20:50 | < SmithKurosaki> | I m |
| 20:50 | < SmithKurosaki> | I'm out, will ttyl |
| 21:08 | < Derakon[work]> | Why did the developers of C ever let you do if/else/for/while statements without curly braces? :( |
| 21:08 | < ErikMesoy> | Inspired by Python? |
| 21:09 | < Derakon[work]> | That would require some interesting temporal shenanigans. |
| 21:09 | < ErikMesoy> | import antigravity, import timetravel |
| 21:09 | < ErikMesoy> | :P |
| 21:09 | < Derakon[work]> | And in any event, Python does have consistent block delimeters. |
| 21:10 | < Derakon[work]> | It says something about Python that I had to actually check if those were in the __future__ module. |
| 21:37 | <@McMartin> | Hee |
| 21:39 | < Derakon[work]> | % python -c 'from __future__ import braces' |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | Not a chance |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | Also, re: "without braces" |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | Because the grammar becomes so much easier that way; the real question is why functions mandate them |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | Otherwise, braces are to statements what parens are to expressions in every case |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | if (expr) stmt [else stmt] |
| 21:41 | < Derakon[work]> | I.e. a good idea? |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | "A generic grouping mechanism for turning many into one" |
| 21:41 | < Derakon[work]> | I'm increasingly of the opinion that mandating good style is a good idea, since if you don't do it, then other coders will make your life unpleasant. |
| 21:41 | <@McMartin> | You see this more in code being backfitted from C99 to C89, mind you |
| 21:42 | <@McMartin> | (putting braced statements in the middle of straight line code so that they can declare variables immediately before use, etc) |
| 21:43 | < Derakon[work]> | Let's play Spot the Brace Mismatch! http://paste.ubuntu.com/303128/ |
| 21:44 | < Derakon[work]> | ...actually, now that I count it out, it does line up. |
| 21:44 | < Derakon[work]> | But it sure as hell looks godawful. |
| 21:47 | < Derakon[work]> | I think the thing I hate most about this code, at the moment, is that it is consistently inconsistent. |
| 21:47 | <@McMartin> | Was that first paste (with the breaks) inside a loop? |
| 21:48 | < Derakon[work]> | You mean this one? http://paste.ubuntu.com/303098/ |
| 21:48 | < gnolam> | Gah... the indentation... the horrible horrible indentation... |
| 21:48 | <@McMartin> | Yes, that one. |
| 21:48 | < Derakon[work]> | It was in a switch/case block. |
| 21:48 | <@McMartin> | I'm not actua |
| 21:49 | <@McMartin> | Aha |
| 21:49 | <@McMartin> | Yeah |
| 21:49 | <@McMartin> | (Note: ^J and ^K not the same) |
| 21:49 | <@McMartin> | (That was going to be "I'm not actually confident he wouldn't do that in straight line) |
| 21:52 | < gnolam> | I like how he mixes %i and %d in that sprintf statement too. |
| 21:53 | <@McMartin> | I wish there were standard % codes for specific bit widths. =( |
| 21:54 | <@McMartin> | I am reminded of another terrible coder I have been ranted at about |
| 21:54 | <@McMartin> | His preferred method of signalling errors was by evaluating 18/0 |
| 21:54 | <@McMartin> | Sometimes multiple times |
| 21:54 | <@McMartin> | Sometimes inside asserts |
| 21:55 | < gnolam> | ... |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | The best was when it was in dead code |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | So you'd have |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | # Do computation here, putting it in result, etc. |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | return result |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | 18/0 |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | 18/0 |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | return 18/0 |
| 21:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | .. |
| 21:56 | <@McMartin> | You know |
| 21:56 | <@McMartin> | In case the return didn't return *hard* enough the first time. |
| 21:56 | < ErikMesoy> | what the |
| 21:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | <McMartin> I wish there were standard % codes for specific bit widths. =( -- seconded |
| 21:56 | < Derakon[work]> | This is the kind of code you get from someone who doesn't understand how programming works. |
| 21:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Especially with recent work I'm doing on message-passing libraries. |
| 21:56 | <@McMartin> | One of the souls forced to maintain this after he was laid off described the system as "a stopped clock that we check twice a day" |
| 21:56 | < Derakon[work]> | Whereas the code I'm dealing with here is from someone who basically understands how programs work; just not how they're designed. |
| 21:57 | < Derakon[work]> | McM: hee. |
| 21:57 | | * ToxicFrog had a fun bug to track down earlier that stemmed from one of the nodes being 64-bit, and thus having 64-bit size_ts, but all of the nodes using %d |
| 21:57 | <@McMartin> | There *is* a non-standard %-code for "however big a size_t is" but I forget what it is. z? |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, one of the things I like about both Lua and Java is that dead code like that is a compile time error. |
| 21:58 | < Derakon[work]> | Oh, look, a function where Sebastian momentarily forgot how arrays work! |
| 21:59 | < Derakon[work]> | Hence why we have the arguments AnaListN, nxN, and nAnalogN, for N in [0..3]. |
| 21:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | ;.; |
| 22:00 | <@McMartin> | "this was preceded by about 15-20 lines of in-fiction description of the various castles in LotR" |
| 22:00 | <@McMartin> | My response to this |
| 22:00 | < Derakon[work]> | Mind, this is what it looks like when the Python code calls it... |
| 22:00 | < Derakon[work]> | c.Profile_Set(string, digList, anaDeltaList0, anaDeltaList1, anaDeltaList2, anaDeltaList3) |
| 22:00 | <@McMartin> | Comments are extremely important for maintainable code! |
| 22:00 | <@McMartin> | They give off magic Comment Rays that make the code better |
| 22:00 | | * Derakon[work] snerks. |
| 22:00 | | * gnolam guffaws. |
| 22:01 | | * Derakon[work] <3 vim. Where else could you do something like ":.,'bg/sizeof/s/$/\r }"? |
| 22:01 | < ErikMesoy> | Perl? |
| 22:01 | < Derakon[work]> | Mm. Point. |
| 22:01 | < jerith> | Der: TECO? |
| 22:02 | < Derakon[work]> | And sed. |
| 22:02 | < Derakon[work]> | TECO wouldn't actually be legible, Jerith~ |
| 22:02 | < jerith> | Derakon[work]: Every string of characters is a valid TECO command. |
| 22:03 | < jerith> | So there's plenty of legible TECO. It's just unexpected in its effects. |
| 22:03 | < Derakon[work]> | (Translation of that command: "From the cursor location to marker b, find lines that contain the string "sizeof", and insert the line " }" after them) |
| 22:03 | < Derakon[work]> | Jerith: yeah, I'm aware of that. |
| 22:03 | < Derakon[work]> | Useful TECO is illegible; legible TECO is not useful. |
| 22:04 | < jerith> | Hey, don't forget emacs was originally a collection of TECO macros.~ |
| 22:04 | < ErikMesoy> | Really? |
| 22:04 | < jerith> | Well, the sort of proto-emacs. |
| 22:04 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-a62bd960.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 22:04 | <@McMartin> | I vaguely recall this |
| 22:04 | < jerith> | Assuming I'm not misremembering. |
| 22:04 | < Derakon[work]> | Hullo, Rhamphoryncus. |
| 22:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yarrrr |
| 22:06 | < jerith> | http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TecoEmacs |
| 22:07 | < jerith> | The name comes from Editor MACroS. |
| 22:19 | | * Derakon[work] finally finishes fixing the whitespace problems in this 866-line file. |
| 22:35 | < Derakon[work]> | % hg diff C67lib.cpp|wc -l |
| 22:35 | < Derakon[work]> | 1694 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 28 00:00:36 2009 |