| --- Log opened Mon Jun 22 00:00:57 2009 |
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| 02:04 | | * GeekSoldier thwaps the FreeBSD ports system... GHC apparently has not worked for a while, and this is obviously not too much of a problem... |
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| 06:49 | | * Reiver sniggers. |
| 06:49 | <@Reiver> | so, after all that work on 1NF, 2NF, 3NF? |
| 06:49 | <@Reiver> | She asks us on 4NF, 5NF, and Coddthingy. |
| 06:50 | <@Reiver> | Like, /exclusively/. |
| 06:50 | <@Reiver> | We spent... 5 mins or so on each in a 90min lecture on Normal Forms on the things. Ah, well. |
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| 08:18 | <@Vornicus> | NEver mind that usually you don't /see/ 4NF and 5NF. Boyce-Codd though is a slight generalization of 3NF. |
| 08:24 | <@Reiver> | I wouldn't have minded if it were a 5-parter. |
| 08:24 | <@Reiver> | AKA: "Describe xNF" for 1-5 |
| 08:24 | <@Reiver> | But /starting at 4/ was somewhat rude. |
| 08:25 | <@Vornicus> | (heck, I can't even properly describe 4nf and 5nf off the top of my head) |
| 08:26 | <@Reiver> | Yes, well, they were the only NFs that were requested in the exam whatsoever. |
| 08:26 | <@Reiver> | That actively ticked me off, tbh |
| 08:28 | <@Vornicus> | (they appear to be "no 3-way join tables if you can avoid them" |
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| 09:39 | < simontwo> | I don't even remember them. we never used them in my database class. |
| 09:39 | < simontwo> | my book only thoroughly mentions BCNF, 1NF, 2NF and 3NF. |
| 09:40 | < simontwo> | I usually remember them collectively as "don't make crappy table designs." |
| 09:40 | <@Vornicus> | Heh. |
| 09:41 | < simontwo> | amusingly, my database lecturer gave us this assignment where we had to figure out some stuff based on some arctic expedition he was on. his table layouts were insane. they broke with every imagination of sanity one could come up with. for instance, none of the columns were named anything sensibly, and all tables were at least 20 columns wide. |
| 09:42 | < simontwo> | and there were like a hundred tables like that. |
| 09:43 | < simontwo> | so he was the sort of guy who doesn't practice what he preaches. :P |
| 09:44 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, my memory is basically the same as simontwo's. |
| 09:45 | <@Namegduf> | "Don't duplicate data" is one that stuck in my mind, because it is the enemy of optimisation. |
| 09:45 | <@Namegduf> | (Or, alternatively, optimisation is the enemy of it) |
| 09:45 | <@Namegduf> | As did "everything must depend on the primary key". |
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| 09:50 | | * TheWatcher eyes simontwo |
| 09:50 | <@TheWatcher> | He wasn't on an expedition lead by a geologist called William Dyer, was he? |
| 10:06 | < simontwo> | TheWatcher, I don't know. the guy who leads databases at my uni is called Philippe Bonnet. |
| 10:14 | < simontwo> | Namegduf, duplicating data can lead to optimization, but might lead to inconsistency. |
| 10:14 | < simontwo> | Namegduf, which leads to anger and suffering, etc. |
| 10:17 | < simontwo> | Namegduf, e.g. the FluxBB PHP-based forum stores the list of most recent topics and their most recent replies in a table that is essentially duplicating the table with actual posts, since then they can, without caching the database, ask for the most recent ten posts very inexpensively. although when I delete posts directly in the database because of spammers, that list becomes inconsistent. |
| 10:22 | <@Namegduf> | simontwo: Isn't the appropriate answer there to "not delete posts directly from the database"? |
| 10:22 | <@Namegduf> | I mean, a cache table is fairly appropriate for a number of uses. |
| 10:26 | < simontwo> | Namegduf, yup. |
| 10:27 | < simontwo> | Namegduf, or at least regenerate the table upon wreaking havoc. |
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| 10:55 | <@gnolam> | const static std::map<std::string, std::map<std::string, float>> |
| 10:55 | <@gnolam> | DEAR GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE |
| 11:11 | <@McMartin> | Failed to use a typedef. |
| 11:11 | <@Namegduf> | I've seen much worse. |
| 11:11 | <@McMartin> | The only decision to make there is whether you want nested maps like that or instead want to map on pairs of strings. |
| 11:11 | <@Namegduf> | I used a map of strings to sets of strings recently. |
| 11:12 | <@McMartin> | You could also, you know, stick a using namespace std; up top and save yourself twenty characters. |
| 11:28 | <@gnolam> | A using namespace std in that scope would be just as evil. |
| 11:30 | <@gnolam> | But I didn't know std::pair had inequality operators. But I need to do several lookups in the returned map, so it wouldn't really help. |
| 11:30 | <@gnolam> | (I'll remember it for future projects though. :)) |
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| 13:18 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. |
| 13:20 | <@gnolam> | I'm a bit fuzzy on the physics, but I could probably do a bit of precalculation and get away with a pair<> anyway. |
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| 14:06 | | * Reiver wonders if McMartin is up; would frankly be surprised, but |
| 14:06 | <@Vornicus> | it's 6AM there. |
| 14:07 | <@Reiver> | so why has he been idle 2hrs? |
| 14:07 | <@Reiver> | That's vaugely worrying~ |
| 14:07 | <@Reiver> | Anyway |
| 14:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Idly, Reiv |
| 14:07 | <@TheWatcher> | How'd database thingy go? |
| 14:08 | <@Reiver> | TW: Har |
| 14:08 | <@Reiver> | You know how I went through so much effort at learning the nuances of 1NF, 2NF & 3NF (As opposed to simply knowing how to get something to 3NF and be done with it)? |
| 14:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Yey, 4NF/5NF... |
| 14:09 | <@TheWatcher> | ¬¬ |
| 14:09 | <@Reiver> | This is because we'd been told that Normal Forms would be in the exam, and we'd be expected to identify them individually. In class, we'd spent a whole lecture on them - about 20mins each on 1NF, 2NF, 3NF, and about 5mins each on 4/5/C-D |
| 14:09 | <@Reiver> | With the note that the last three are sorta nice, but don't come up much so we weren't going to waste lecture time on them |
| 14:09 | <@TheWatcher> | So they were the ones asked about on the lecture |
| 14:09 | <@TheWatcher> | ? |
| 14:10 | <@Reiver> | The exam question: "Describe 4NF, 5NF and Cobb-Whatsit Normal Forms, with an example for each." |
| 14:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Nice piece of work, that lecturer... |
| 14:10 | <@Reiver> | 1,2,3 did not come up anywhere. |
| 14:10 | <@Reiver> | This distresses me - had the question demanded 1-5, I'd have been /fine/ with that |
| 14:10 | <@Vornicus> | C-D? |
| 14:10 | <@Vornicus> | B-C. |
| 14:11 | <@Reiver> | B-C, sorry, yeah |
| 14:11 | <@Vornicus> | (there's also Domain-Key) |
| 14:11 | <@Reiver> | This distresses me - had the question demanded 1-5&BC, I'd have been /fine/ with that |
| 14:11 | <@Reiver> | (better?~) |
| 14:11 | <@Reiver> | You know, half marks for knowing the lectured material, and Bonus Marks for those that studied it. |
| 14:11 | <@Reiver> | As it was, if you'd mastered the nuances of 1st vs 2nd vs 3rd... you had no opportunity to demonstrate this knowledge whatsoever. |
| 14:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Lovely. |
| 14:12 | <@Reiver> | The rest of the exam was simply working with & assuming 3NF. Which everyone and their dog should know if you're in a 3rd year databases class. |
| 14:12 | | * Reiver was ticked off on that one. |
| 14:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Don't blame you, really |
| 14:13 | <@Reiver> | The rest... eh, it went. I should do moderately well. Am glad I shoved in a diagram of the UML vs Barker vs Etc, because she'd told us to master at least three of them, then demanded... UML. |
| 14:13 | <@Reiver> | Which we'd, uh, used the whole course. |
| 14:13 | <@Reiver> | I can respect dropping hints, and not making things /too/ easy, but c'mon |
| 14:14 | <@Reiver> | It was... not even curveball questions, but ones where you either Knew It, or you Didn't - and this was on stuff we /didn't know we were meant to have studied/. |
| 14:15 | <@Reiver> | Mastery Questions (The sort where to get full marks you have to have really mastered the subject matter) I can handle. Ones where a solid understanding of half the question nets you 0... *gnash teeth* |
| 14:15 | <@Reiver> | (FWIW: I'm reasonably confident that I've passed. I'm just... augh. Not even a bad exam, just a shitty one. Several questions I simply couldn't answer; others were utterly trivial.) |
| 14:16 | <@Reiver> | Oh, and heh |
| 14:16 | <@Reiver> | 1st question: 10marks, took an hour. |
| 14:16 | <@Reiver> | 2nd question: Describe 4NF/5NF/BCNF *with examples* |
| 14:16 | | * Vornicus examines 4nf and 5nf, tries to figure out how to say them nicely. |
| 14:17 | <@Reiver> | 3rd question: Write 4 trivial little SQL statements, 8 marks. |
| 14:17 | <@Reiver> | 4th question: Take an SQL statement, take a dataset, write the output. 2 marks. |
| 14:18 | <@Reiver> | 5th question: Essay format. |
| 14:18 | <@Reiver> | Noticing a certain... lack of consistency here? |
| 14:18 | <@Vornicus> | Heh. |
| 14:19 | <@UndeadAnno> | Reiver: You want consistency? |
| 14:19 | <@Reiver> | But really, #2 simply pissed me off. |
| 14:19 | <@UndeadAnno> | Are you aware that these people were once students? |
| 14:19 | <@UndeadAnno> | Like the ones you study with? |
| 14:20 | <@Reiver> | I wrote vauge half-hearted answers for them, because I only half-remembered the stuff (ANd for those ones, it's /fiddly/) |
| 14:20 | <@Reiver> | Anno: This one came to lecturing straight out of UK consultancy. |
| 14:20 | <@Reiver> | First time lecturer as of march this year. |
| 14:20 | <@Reiver> | (Note the timing~) |
| 14:22 | | * TheWatcher pokes at marking vaguely |
| 14:22 | <@TheWatcher> | bleegh |
| 14:23 | | * Reiver stares. |
| 14:23 | | * Reiver is not sure what he's trying to /ask/ |
| 14:23 | <@Reiver> | http://pastebin.com/d1caae41f - the task at hand. The code: http://pastebin.com/d32ff455 |
| 14:24 | <@Reiver> | Apparently I need to, uh, save the old memory state every time it changes? |
| 14:27 | <@TheWatcher> | Ah, haskell |
| 14:27 | | * TheWatcher will be no use, then |
| 14:28 | | * Vornicus will similarly be of no use. |
| 14:28 | <@Reiver> | ;_; |
| 14:28 | <@Reiver> | Can't even read the stuff, I gather? |
| 14:29 | <@Vornicus> | Indeed not. |
| 14:30 | <@TheWatcher> | I can read it. Can't parse it, but I can read it~ |
| 14:31 | | * Vornicus decides to do battle with vornball. |
| 14:31 | <@TheWatcher> | Good luck |
| 14:32 | | * TheWatcher tries to write feedback for this student, struggles vaguely |
| 14:38 | | * Vornicus tries to figure out where he was. |
| 14:39 | <@Vornicus> | Ah. I was writing in an event thing. |
| 14:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Note for the future: marking C assignments immediately after writing perl code may not be a wise thing to do. |
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| 18:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Ooh, ECB update |
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| 19:11 | | * Derakon eyes job listings, vaguely wonders if he should start working in C++ again. |
| 19:11 | <@Derakon> | It's rather surprising how many "Linux kernel dev" jobs there are on this site. |
| 19:13 | <@Derakon> | And then there's listings like http://tinyurl.com/lnwx68 which basiscally say "We want a Java developer" and have no actual details about the company. |
| 19:13 | <@Derakon> | Frickin' CyberCoders. |
| 19:16 | | * Derakon ponders applying anyway. |
| 20:05 | <@McMartin> | Derakon: If you have basic facility with the language, pick up "Effective C++" and "Effective STL" *immediately*. They are the Torah to the Stroustrup's Bible. |
| 20:05 | <@McMartin> | "More Effective C++" can be skipped. |
| 20:05 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 20:05 | <@McMartin> | But Effective C++ in particular is basically a catalogue of all the ways C++ tries to screw you with wacky semantics, and how to avoid this or even exploit it back. |
| 20:05 | <@Derakon> | Niobium was written in C++/Lua. I know the language. I'm mainly just rusty. |
| 20:05 | <@Derakon> | (And don't know Boost) |
| 20:06 | <@McMartin> | Boost has decent documatation on its website. |
| 20:06 | <@McMartin> | Though it's large and sprawling. |
| 20:06 | <@McMartin> | You *need* to know Smart_Ptr, you'll want to know filesystem and thread. |
| 20:06 | <@gnolam> | Derakon: And I thought Niobium was corrosion resistant. ;) |
| 20:07 | <@Derakon> | Niobium was my first game development project. |
| 20:07 | <@McMartin> | You'll probably like to have boost::regex around, but I don't use it much. |
| 20:07 | <@McMartin> | Oh, boost::bind is nice too. I think it might be going into TR1. |
| 20:07 | <@Derakon> | Regexes are incredibly handy in some situations, but for most cases I can get by with just split(). |
| 20:07 | <@Derakon> | TR1? |
| 20:08 | <@McMartin> | Tech Report 1, the next extension to the C++ standard. |
| 20:08 | <@Derakon> | Also, this is what you meant by Effective C++, right? http://www.amazon.com/dp/0321334876 |
| 20:08 | <@Derakon> | Ahh. |
| 20:08 | <@McMartin> | It's essentially making parts of Boost officially standard, and then a bunch of freakish stuff I hope nobody uses~ |
| 20:08 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 20:09 | <@McMartin> | Yes, that. |
| 20:09 | <@McMartin> | Effective STL is by the same author and looks similar, but has a pink swoosh instead of a yellow one. |
| 20:09 | <@Derakon> | I'm pretty familiar with the STL; IIRC there's not much more to it than "Look, we've implemented a bunch of data structures for you", right? |
| 20:09 | <@Derakon> | Niobium used STL vectors extensively, for example. |
| 20:09 | <@McMartin> | Well, STL is in general full of spiders |
| 20:10 | <@Derakon> | s/STL/C++/ |
| 20:10 | <@gnolam> | Like how you can't rely on std::list::size() beign O(1), for instance. |
| 20:10 | <@gnolam> | *being |
| 20:10 | <@Derakon> | Okay, ordered Effective C++ anyway. |
| 20:13 | <@Derakon> | Of course, this isn't much help for immediate job prospects. I guess I could work on reimplementing Project Euler solutions in C++. |
| 20:24 | <@McMartin> | Less useful than you'd expect. Most of those are going to be exercises in implementing multiple-precision arithmetic. =P |
| 20:26 | <@Derakon> | Well, I can skip those then. |
| 20:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Can anyone recommend a bug tracker/ feature request system other than my default (bugzilla) |
| 20:48 | <@gnolam> | ... and OSS zealotry reaches new heights: "Fontforge is an ideal font design program, as far we could test it out" |
| 21:13 | <@McMartin> | Zero Defects: The results of shutting down production |
| 21:57 | <@Consul> | At the risk of public humiliation for being so OT: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmlandrum/sets/72157620153861871/ -- My first two attempts at spray paint art. |
| 21:57 | <@Derakon> | Hey, not bad. |
| 21:58 | <@Derakon> | A bit messy, but given your lack of experience, that's entirely excusable. |
| 21:59 | <@Derakon> | The stars don't seem plausible, in part because they are entirely on top of the background nebula (looking at your second pic), but I haven't a clue how you'd go about mixing them in better. |
| 22:01 | <@Derakon> | Mol: as in, 130GB free? |
| 22:01 | <@Derakon> | Mischan. |
| 22:02 | <@Consul> | Derakon: Yeah, I need to figure out a few tricks. Making stars is a lot harder than it looks, as it turns out. |
| 22:04 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Derakon: you'd expect to see at least a short handful of stars shining right through a nebula, wouldn't you? Not to mention that most of the big and old ones will have young stars formed in them. |
| 22:05 | <@Derakon> | MCV: sure, but they shouldn't be entirely on top of the nebula. |
| 22:05 | <@Consul> | MyCatVerbs: That was my thought, too. I'm thinking, flick on the stars, spray the nebula clouds (nice and thin), then flick on a few more stars on top. |
| 22:05 | <@Derakon> | They're pure white instead of being colored by the obstructing dust. |
| 22:05 | <@Consul> | It turns out to be harder to flick stars than I thought it would be. I need to master that technique next, I thinik. |
| 22:05 | <@Derakon> | And yeah, some will be in front of the nebula, or so bright that they look white anyway. |
| 22:09 | <@Consul> | The other technique I need to master is photographing the things without artifacts. |
| 22:14 | | * TheWatcher hms, installs bugzilla |
| 22:26 | <@Derakon> | Looking at available jobs, they seem to be mostly one of: linux kernel, security, java (in various forms), web developer, iPhone. |
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| 23:25 | | * gnolam makes Steam stop lying. |
| 23:26 | <@gnolam> | It claimed RadiaX was a "third-party" mod. It's as first-party as it gets for me. ;) |
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| 23:45 | | * McMartin does battle, once again, with the forces of NSIS. |
| 23:48 | <@gnolam> | ... that sentence was so much more interesting when I read "NSIS" as "NCIS". |
| 23:48 | <@EvilDarkLord> | So, at what point does NSIS start falling apart? It looked reasonably easy to use for simple stuff. |
| 23:48 | <@McMartin> | It is. |
| 23:48 | <@McMartin> | Here's the trick. |
| 23:49 | <@McMartin> | There's stuff that's easy enough with NSIS + tools, and easy enough with anything else. |
| 23:49 | <@McMartin> | Then there's the stuff that's hideous and full of spiders with NSIS and completely impossible with everything else. |
| 23:50 | <@McMartin> | In this particular case, we're dynamically determining which drives are valid to install to (and there are a variety of custom constraints on this), modifying the UI accordingly, and showing progress indicators of sorts, and this is working on XP but not Vista. |
| 23:51 | <@McMartin> | NSIS is basically both completely horrendous and still best of breed anyway for Windows Installers. |
| 23:51 | <@McMartin> | This is cause for sadface, but it's also partly that software installation is harder than people think in the general case. |
| 23:54 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[t-2] |
| 23:58 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Tue Jun 23 00:00:12 2009 |