| --- Log opened Tue Jan 20 00:00:07 2009 |
| --- Day changed Tue Jan 20 2009 |
| 00:00 | < UndeadAnno> | !roll 1*p(a1) + 2*p(a2) + 3*p(a3) + 3*p(a4) |
| 00:00 | < KarmaBot> | [UndeadAnno] rolled 1*p(a1) + 2*p(a2) + 3*p(a3) + 3*p(a4): 1*p(a1)+2*p(a2)+3*p(a3)+3*p(a4) = 0. |
| 00:00 | < UndeadAnno> | Damn it. |
| 00:00 | < UndeadAnno> | !roll 0.4+2*0.35+3*0.2+3*0.05:1*p(a1) + 2*p(a2) + 3*p(a3) + 3*p(a4) |
| 00:00 | < KarmaBot> | [UndeadAnno] rolled "1*p(a1) + 2*p(a2) + 3*p(a3) + 3*p(a4)": 0.4+2*0.35+3*0.2+3*0.05 = 1.85. |
| 00:00 | <@Derakon> | Um, what are p, a1, a2, etc? |
| 00:01 | < UndeadAnno> | a are symbols, p are probabilities of symbols occurring. |
| 00:01 | <@Derakon> | And KarmaBot is supposed to interpret that? |
| 00:02 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:02 | < UndeadAnno> | No. |
| 00:02 | < UndeadAnno> | I pasted it, and wasn't aware it contained a cr. |
| 00:09 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:10 | <@McMartin> | "The adjective "enterprisey" is sometimes used to make this sarcasm explicit. In this usage, the term "enterprisey" is intended to go beyond the concern of "overkill for smaller organizations", to imply the software is overly complex even for large organizations and simpler, proven solutions are available." |
| 00:10 | <@McMartin> | I've seen those communities! |
| 00:10 | <@McMartin> | They also mock C programs for defining their own boolean types. |
| 00:10 | <@McMartin> | So, yeah~ |
| 00:11 | <@McMartin> | A lot of the Enterprisiness of Java software is because it has a calcified type system and so is harder to make as flexible as Python. |
| 00:11 | <@McMartin> | Thus, you end up with ClassLoader douchebaggery and synthetics and all the rest. |
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| 00:13 | < UndeadAnno> | TRUE, FALSE, FILENOTFOUND. |
| 00:14 | <@gnolam> | Indeed. And they can't just be enums either - you have to come up with your own bizarre data structure for them. |
| 00:15 | <@gnolam> | Bedtime. |
| 00:15 | <@gnolam> | Or at least, "move to bed with laptop" time. |
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| 00:18 | | * McMartin would like to remind the channel that C does not have a boolean. If you want symbolic booleans, you have to define your own. |
| 00:20 | <@Derakon> | Or just use 0 and 1, which work damn near everywhere. |
| 00:20 | | * Serah nibbles on McMartin. |
| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | Except, of course, when your compiler decides that "1 == 1" is actually ~0, not 1. |
| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | Which may or may not be the same thing as -1! |
| 00:27 | <@McMartin> | That said, anyone critiquing C code who says "lol they did #define TRUE 1" has no credibility whatsoever on any topic related to any kind of system programming. |
| 00:28 | <@Derakon> | Now, if you had, say, #define TWO 2, then I'd be worried. |
| 00:28 | <@Derakon> | Since it implies that you might someday want to define TWO to be something else. |
| 00:29 | <@McMartin> | "This also allows for the easy changing of the constants, should the value of pi change." |
| 00:30 | <@Derakon> | Pi is actually a different matter, since it's a pain to type it out to the desired precision every time. |
| 00:30 | <@McMartin> | And if you are porting to a machine with a different floating point width, the value of pi *can* change. |
| 00:31 | | * Vornicus says "lol they did #define where const int would work" but that's a bit different. |
| 00:31 | <@Derakon> | #defines get put in at compile time, and thus are marginally faster, yes? |
| 00:34 | <@Vornicus> | Put in at compile time yes; but so too are small constants, placed in as part of opcodes. |
| 00:37 | <@Vornicus> | using an actual constant instead of macros gives you better typechecking too. |
| 00:37 | <@Derakon> | I've been using untyped scripting languages for a long time now~ |
| 00:38 | <@Derakon> | (Well, Perl has types. Scalar, list, and hashmap) |
| 00:42 | <@McMartin> | Vornicus: const int isn't part of C89, IIRC. |
| 00:42 | <@McMartin> | And no, even though it's been 10 years, nobody actually uses C99-compliant compilers. |
| 00:42 | <@McMartin> | Even the ones that do disable C99 compliance by default. |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | gnu89 has const and a bunch of other stuff, but it's neither C89 nor C99~ |
| 00:44 | <@Vornicus> | ah, the problems with having dozens of implementations. |
| 00:44 | <@Derakon> | ...heh. I wonder if someone's written a Python interpreter in Objective C. |
| 00:45 | <@McMartin> | Which version?~ |
| 00:45 | <@Derakon> | Um, 2.5 ideally. |
| 00:45 | <@McMartin> | GNUStep and Cocoa have entirely incompatible libraries, right down to the "object" level. |
| 00:45 | <@Derakon> | Oh, you meant of ObjC. |
| 00:46 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 00:46 | <@McMartin> | Python, whatever |
| 00:54 | <@MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: hang on, OOlite runs using Cocoa on OS X and GNUStep everywhere else. *Entirely* incompatible? |
| 00:54 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Or are the OOlite devs just doing a truly staggering quantity of #ifdeffing? |
| 00:55 | <@McMartin> | The latter, although they may have done #define tricks instead. |
| 00:55 | <@McMartin> | But the roots of the object hierarchy are different objects, and most of the utility stuff in the library also has different names. |
| 00:55 | <@McMartin> | I bet with sufficient token pasting and careful use of the intersection of the functionality you could get it down to a single #ifdef #else |
| 00:56 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Freaky. Did the GNUStep devs not have copies of the NS* documentation or did they expect to be sued for duplicating the API or something? |
| 00:57 | <@McMartin> | The latter is my guess. |
| 00:57 | <@McMartin> | Thanks to ObjC's semantics, you could hide all the NS* vs. GS* stuff at the top. |
| 00:57 | <@McMartin> | But that doesn't change the fact that you have to ifdef out NSObject and GSObject! |
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| 03:13 | <@Derakon> | Agh. I feel like I'm writing Java. |
| 03:14 | <@Derakon> | numPatterns = bulletml.courseManager.getNumPatterns(self.course) |
| 03:14 | <@Derakon> | self.emitter = Emitter(loc, util.getMLPath(bulletml.courseManager.getPatternName(self.course, self.emitType))) |
| 03:14 | <@McMartin> | Python and Java do share the "directory structure matches package structure" gimmick. |
| 03:14 | <@Serah> | Heh. |
| 03:14 | <@McMartin> | You could, of course, "import bulletml.courseManager as cm" |
| 03:14 | <@McMartin> | Or whatnot. |
| 03:15 | <@Serah> | Everything's built on bricks, eh'? |
| 03:15 | <@McMartin> | Assuming courseManager is a file. |
| 03:15 | <@Derakon> | courseManager is an object that I've attached to the bulletml module. |
| 03:15 | <@Derakon> | It's an instance of the CourseManager class. |
| 03:16 | <@Derakon> | (And it occurs to me that I should probably move the *Manager classes out of gameobjects.py and into a new file managers.py or something) |
| 03:24 | <@Derakon> | Okay, the CourseManager is integrated into the codebase. |
| 03:24 | <@Derakon> | You can now create new courses by modifying courses.xml. |
| 03:25 | <@Derakon> | Granted only the course named 'Default' is used ATM; that's a matter of UI tweaks, though. |
| 03:31 | <@Derakon> | Any suggestions for turning a Python class instance into a string that is unique to that instance (and others that are exactly like it)? Top goals: consistency, terseness. Irrelevant: ability to retrieve data out of the string. |
| 03:32 | <@Derakon> | Basically I want to be able to turn a Course into a key in the highscores data file. |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | ':'.join(bmls) =P |
| 03:33 | <@Derakon> | Courses are more than just the list of patterns. |
| 03:33 | <@Derakon> | They also include things like the starting emitter location, starting player location, rank-up rate, number of lives/bombs, etc. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | MD5 the xml file. |
| 03:35 | <@Derakon> | Hrm...at the moment every course is stored in courses.xml, but that does make modding a bit more annoying ("Installation: download these patterns. Now open courses.xml and paste this text in..."). |
| 03:35 | <@McMartin> | I think it would be better to have one xml file per cource. |
| 03:35 | <@McMartin> | *course |
| 03:36 | <@Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 03:36 | <@Derakon> | That just makes it more annoying to find them, is all. |
| 03:36 | <@McMartin> | Use filenames in the directory to detect them, and keep them separate from the bmls. |
| 03:36 | <@Derakon> | Everything in data/courses/*xml is parsed as a course; coursenames refer to files in data/patterns/*bml. Yeah. |
| 03:37 | <@McMartin> | Sounds good to me. |
| 03:37 | <@McMartin> | And if you want, you could bundle them all into zip files. =P |
| 03:37 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 03:37 | <@Derakon> | Text is cheap. |
| 03:37 | <@McMartin> | It is, but it does let you have mods be "bung this .course file into data/packages" |
| 03:37 | <@McMartin> | Where .course is a renamed .zip |
| 03:38 | <@Derakon> | One step at a time. |
| 03:38 | <@McMartin> | I'd say working with uncompressed is the easiest way to start, yeah. |
| 03:38 | <@Derakon> | Especially since I need to modify these often. I don't want to a) deal with zipping/unzipping every time I want to make a change, nor b) teaching the program to deal with both types of file. |
| 03:39 | <@McMartin> | Oh, you certainly wouldn't do this *during development*, no. |
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| 03:48 | <@Derakon> | Okay, courses.xml is gone. |
| 03:54 | <@Derakon> | Now, do I really want to use XML for the highscores list too? |
| 03:54 | <@Derakon> | XML is fine if I just have to read it and want to write it by hand, but programmatically writing XML can be a bit annoying. |
| 03:54 | <@McMartin> | Why not just use something you can parse with readlines()? |
| 03:54 | <@Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 03:55 | <@Derakon> | md5sum of file\nscore1\nscore2\n...\nscore10\n\nmd5sum of file etc. |
| 03:57 | <@McMartin> | I guess each line would also be parsed with split. |
| 03:58 | <@Derakon> | Well, each line has at bare minimum the score, rank, and number of patterns passed (which is slightly redundant, but who cares?) |
| 03:58 | <@Derakon> | Assuming I can make text entry not suck, I'd also let you put your name in~ |
| 03:59 | <@McMartin> | Text entry isn't *that* hard |
| 03:59 | <@McMartin> | Especially since you should be able to get the char code out of key events. |
| 03:59 | <@Derakon> | Well, it involves a lot of UI stuff. |
| 03:59 | <@Derakon> | Dialogs and cursors and so on. |
| 03:59 | <@McMartin> | Not really. |
| 03:59 | <@McMartin> | You've spent too long on a Mac and not enough in an arcade. |
| 04:00 | <@McMartin> | You can force-focus to the framebuffer. |
| 04:00 | <@McMartin> | All you need to detect are letters, space, backspace, and ENTER. |
| 04:00 | <@Derakon> | No, no, no, I just mean it's a fair amount of UI implementation to do. It's straightforward, I just don't want to do it. |
| 04:01 | <@McMartin> | Dialogs and cursors implies a separate widget for text entry, and the ability to actually edit the middle of the line~ |
| 04:01 | <@McMartin> | Fie on both of those, sez I |
| 04:01 | <@Derakon> | Okay, bad terminology on my part then. |
| 04:11 | <@Derakon> | (There's actually a fair amount of straightforward-and-dull work to be done on this project...) |
| 04:12 | <@MyCatVerbs> | Are the Illuminatus! books any good? |
| 04:48 | <@McMartin> | Um. |
| 04:48 | <@McMartin> | That's a very difficult question to answer. |
| 04:48 | <@McMartin> | They're excellent books to have had read. |
| 04:48 | <@McMartin> | Actually reading them is a major effort of will, and it's also not something you can safely do in public. |
| 04:49 | <@Derakon> | ...? |
| 04:49 | <@Derakon> | For fear people will think you're One Of Them? (either illuminatus yourself, or a sci-fi geek, depending on the person) |
| 04:49 | <@McMartin> | He has a tendency to randomly insert disgusting sex scenes into long boring paragraphs to see if you're paying attention and stuff. |
| 04:49 | <@McMartin> | If someone happens to scan the page while you're reading it, it can spark Questions. |
| 04:50 | <@Derakon> | ...ahh. |
| 04:50 | <@McMartin> | At least three-quarters of the books are an extended joke on the reader. |
| 04:51 | <@Derakon> | Ahh. Hell Temple in literary form. I'll pass. |
| 04:54 | <@McMartin> | Pretty much |
| 04:54 | <@McMartin> | Figuring out which bits of his purportedly nonfictional bits were real and which bits were him making shit up to see what nonsense he could get people to believe was also a major part of my youthful education. |
| 04:56 | <@McMartin> | I found The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles to be less obnoxious in that way. |
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| 05:38 | <@Derakon> | Is there a simple way to convert the tuple (0, 0, 0, 'crossfire') into the string "0:0:0:crossfire"? |
| 05:39 | <@Derakon> | Doing '":".join(tuple)' |
| 05:39 | <@Derakon> | doesn't work because 0 isn't a string. |
| 05:39 | <@Derakon> | Actually, I'll just convert those to strings and have done with it. |
| 05:41 | <@McMartin> | ":".join([str(x) for x in tuple]) |
| 05:42 | <@Derakon> | Most of the time I'll just be writing out what I just read in, so there's no point in calling str() on it (even if it's a no-op). More elegant to only convert the stuff I know I have to convert anyawy. |
| 05:42 | <@Derakon> | s/awy/way/ |
| 06:21 | <@Derakon> | Scorefile writing is complete! |
| 06:22 | <@Derakon> | Displaying it in-game is a comparatively simple matter. |
| 06:26 | < MDMA> | This is so interesting :o |
| 06:26 | < MDMA> | Your so..technowise |
| 06:26 | < MDMA> | :o |
| 06:27 | <@Serah> | Spare us your snide comments, please. |
| 06:27 | <@Derakon> | I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but monologues are explicitly permitted in the topic. |
| 06:27 | <@Serah> | Actually, fuckit. |
| 06:28 | | MDMA was kicked from #Code by Serah [Serah] |
| 06:28 | | * Derakon blinks. |
| 06:28 | <@Serah> | Hmm, I forgot the ban. |
| --- Log closed Tue Jan 20 06:31:52 2009 |
| --- Log opened Tue Jan 20 06:31:56 2009 |
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| 06:40 | <@Serah> | Night Dera. |
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| 06:42 | < MDMA> | Jesus ZLOK, I was being totally honest |
| 06:42 | < MDMA> | I can barely script HTML -___- |
| 06:42 | < MDMA> | Well, I don't want to downplay myself, I can do it fairly well :x |
| 06:42 | < MDMA> | But then I tried to learn java and was liek "wut" |
| 06:43 | <@Serah> | I would start with CSS. |
| 06:43 | <@Serah> | Perhaps expand from there upon what you already know. |
| 06:44 | < MDMA> | Thanks! I will look into that :o |
| 06:48 | < MDMA> | Hackthissite mentioned CSS but it was AFTER the java and HTML, so I guess I should find a more reliable learning spot |
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| 07:28 | <@McMartin> | Well, it depends on what you're doing. |
| 07:28 | <@McMartin> | Frankly, Java is almost never what you want for web pages. |
| 07:28 | <@McMartin> | Javascript, however, will put you in good stead to learn either Python or Ruby, both of which are slightly more structured scripting languages. |
| 07:29 | <@McMartin> | And which would work better for applications that don't live on the web browser. |
| 07:30 | < MDMA> | Ah :o |
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| 13:24 | < UndeadAnno> | Hmm. I think there might be something wrong with the way my Uni passes and fails people. |
| 13:24 | < UndeadAnno> | There is one dude on the 4th year, who did not know that [at] in an email address should be replaced with @. He asked me if his mail would reach the recipient if he did not. |
| 13:27 | <@Reiver> | ... |
| 14:23 | <@TheWatcher> | No, that sounds pretty typical for them these days |
| 14:24 | <@TheWatcher> | I'm pretty much convinced that if CS departments booted all the students who really shouldn't be doing the course, they'd be left with about 20 per year |
| 14:25 | <@TheWatcher> | but then, right now i'm cynical and grumpy, so |
| 14:34 | < simontwo> | UndeadAnno, there was also someone on 4th year at my faculty who was all amazed at this new thing called embedded scripting concept called Ruby. |
| 14:34 | < simontwo> | err |
| 14:34 | < simontwo> | ... at this new embedded scripting concept called Ruby. |
| 14:35 | < simontwo> | which just proves that there are people studying CS who don't mess around with the Internet in their spare time. :) |
| 14:37 | <@TheWatcher> | Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem, indeed. |
| 14:39 | < UndeadAnno> | BTW, anyone know Prolog well enough to answer questions about it here? |
| 14:40 | <@TheWatcher> | mine's too rusty to probably be of any use without my old textbooks |
| 14:41 | < simontwo> | ditto |
| 14:42 | <@Vornicus> | TheWatcher: uh. what? |
| 14:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Vorn: the latin? "Science has no enemies but the ignorant" |
| 14:45 | <@Vornicus> | aha |
| 14:48 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 17:23 | < UndeadAnno> | gnolam: How exactly does one use OO's formula editor to make a formula? |
| 17:23 | < UndeadAnno> | I want to make a definition for entropy of an image. |
| 17:39 | <@gnolam> | With great difficulty. |
| 17:40 | <@gnolam> | But it's sort of LaTeX-y. |
| 17:41 | <@gnolam> | What's your problem? |
| 17:45 | < UndeadAnno> | E_F = - sum_i=0^L-1 p(l_i) * log_2 p(l_i) |
| 17:45 | < UndeadAnno> | It's not accepting this. |
| 17:45 | < UndeadAnno> | I don't have the patience to work this out by myself. |
| 17:46 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 17:48 | <@gnolam> | And what's it supposed to be? |
| 17:48 | < UndeadAnno> | I already said. It's supposed to be the formula for image entropy. |
| 17:50 | | * gnolam just pastes it in and sees what happens then. |
| 17:51 | <@gnolam> | Ah. I see the problem. |
| 17:51 | <@gnolam> | You have to give sum an argument. |
| 17:52 | <@gnolam> | E.g. E_F = - sum_i{} =0^L-1 p(l_i) * log_2 p(l_i) |
| 17:52 | <@gnolam> | (Oh, and asterisks look awful as multiplication marks when you've got proper math formatting :)) |
| 17:53 | < UndeadAnno> | *** Expression is faulty *** |
| 17:53 | <@gnolam> | Works just fine here? |
| 17:53 | < UndeadAnno> | Eh. I'll figure it out sometime. |
| 17:53 | < UndeadAnno> | I need to eat now. |
| 17:55 | <@gnolam> | http://www.lysator.liu.se/~gnolam/temp/eqoutput.png <- what OO spits out |
| 18:05 | < UndeadAnno> | That's not exactly what I want. I want i=0 under the Sigma, and L-1 over the Sigma. |
| 18:30 | <@gnolam> | That's what you get when you don't clarify what it's supposed to be (i.e. in regular notation). :P |
| 18:30 | <@gnolam> | Anyway, just group with {}. |
| 18:33 | <@gnolam> | And there might be some other operator than sum. |
| 18:34 | <@gnolam> | E_F = - sum from {i=0} to {L-1} p(l_i) * log_2 p(l_i) |
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| 20:03 | <@Attilla> | Hey guys, know much about eigenvectors? |
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| 20:05 | <@Serah> | Sssh, be very very quiet. |
| 20:05 | <@Serah> | Don't feed the ... eh... |
| 20:06 | < MDMA> | o___o |
| 20:07 | <@Attilla> | Man, are eigenvectors just too high mathematics to be geek common knowledge? :( |
| 20:07 | <@Serah> | Probably not. |
| 20:07 | <@Serah> | I bet vorn can set you straight. |
| 20:07 | <@Attilla> | I have already asked him, he however cannot :( |
| 20:07 | <@Serah> | And probably half the other denizens in here, but alas, I'm stupid. |
| 20:07 | <@Serah> | Oh. |
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| 20:34 | <@Attilla> | Well the question is: |
| 20:34 | <@Attilla> | I know how to do Eigenvalues but i'm confused as to how to get Eigenvectors. I know it involves taking the Eigenvalues (separately) and multiplying it (or something?) onto a 1x2 matrix of [x][y] (or I guess [x;y] if you want to use MATLAB nomenclature |
| 20:35 | | * Vornicus has Not Enough Linear Algebra Experience to generate eigenvectors. |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | It's been too long :( |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | I think I have a textbook at home. Or maybe 500 miles away at my parents' house. |
| 20:40 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Eigenvalues for the matrix A are gotten by solving for d from Determinant(A - dI), where d is a number and I is the appropriately sized unit matrix. |
| 20:40 | <@EvilDarkLord> | The eigenvector(s?) for a given eigenvalue are the solutions x to Ax = d_i, where d_i is one of the solutions for d. |
| 20:41 | <@Vornicus> | Right, we know that |
| 20:41 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Okay... what seems to be the problem then? |
| 20:41 | <@Vornicus> | The question is: How do we /generate/ the eigenvectors. |
| 20:42 | <@Vornicus> | hm. |
| 20:42 | <@Vornicus> | http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EigenDecomposition.html |
| 20:45 | <@Attilla> | The problem (at least with me) is that the nomenclature doesn't work for me, I don't know what the second part actually means |
| 20:47 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Oops, my definition was screwed up I see. |
| 20:48 | <@EvilDarkLord> | So Ax = d_i x instead. |
| 20:51 | <@EvilDarkLord> | So you need a more efficient solution than just solving the above equation? |
| 20:56 | <@Attilla> | Probably, but I might be able to get along with looking at that wolfram stuff, brb |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jan 21 00:00:37 2009 |