| --- Log opened Sat Oct 25 00:00:27 2008 |
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| 02:59 | <@gnolam> | Hmm. The Longest Journey wins at sound editing. |
| 03:00 | <@gnolam> | An ambient "trotting horse" sound actually had me looking out the window for a while. |
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| 04:33 | <@Serah> | I need help with a project. I need to figure out how to make a spring loaded ballista with multiple barrels. |
| 04:34 | <@Vornicus> | Ballistae are generally just large crossbows. I recommend you look at how they make repeating crossbows. |
| 04:35 | <@Serah> | Hmm, but it needs multiple barrels, and I need a mechanism to cock all springs at once. |
| 04:36 | <@Serah> | I'm probably going with a 4 barrel height 6 barrel width. |
| 04:36 | <@Serah> | It needs to shoot waterballoons. |
| 04:36 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I'd recommend a turning knob |
| 04:36 | <@Shoukanjuu> | ... |
| 04:36 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I'd recommend a handcrank |
| 04:36 | <@Vornicus> | ...how do you shoot waterballoons with a ballista? Ballistae have a short acceleration area. |
| 04:36 | <@Shoukanjuu> | And slotted uh...hammers |
| 04:37 | <@Shoukanjuu> | yeah, it just won't work very well |
| 04:37 | <@Shoukanjuu> | But it'll shoot |
| 04:37 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Won't go that far, but it will |
| 04:37 | <@Serah> | We're having a concert/party/event/whatever next summer, and some of us thought it'd be cool, I have a couple of handymen and a carpenter who is willing to make it if I can schematicize it. |
| 04:37 | <@Vornicus> | Shou: I'm more referring to the fact that if you overaccelerate a balloon you'll pop it in the barrel. |
| 04:37 | <@Serah> | It doesn't need to go more than 20m and the impact must be nonlethal. |
| 04:37 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Vorn: Yeah, that's what I'm thinking will happen |
| 04:37 | <@Serah> | And preferrably below bruising area >_> |
| 04:38 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I don't think your'e getting 20 meters out of this |
| 04:38 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Instead, trebuchet. |
| 04:38 | <@Serah> | We may work out the kinks with the delivery system later, sponges are also an option. |
| 04:38 | <@Serah> | Trebuchet is too heavy to effeciently maneuvre around. |
| 04:38 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Surely you can make a smaller scale one that still puts a water balloon twenty meters |
| 04:39 | <@Serah> | Yes, but one is not many. |
| 04:39 | <@Vornicus> | ....and you're expecting the proportionately heavier and more complicated ballista to do any better? |
| 04:39 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Hrm. |
| 04:39 | | * Serah goes to lok up a repeatercrossbow. |
| 04:39 | <@Shoukanjuu> | :P |
| 04:39 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I'm actually thinking of a catapult more and more |
| 04:39 | <@Serah> | Yeah, I am. |
| 04:39 | <@Shoukanjuu> | PS2 get :3 |
| 04:40 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I don't think you'll get the power out of something like that |
| 04:40 | <@Shoukanjuu> | that you need |
| 04:40 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Without a high risk of breaking the balloons |
| 04:40 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Instead, golf or tennis balls. |
| 04:40 | <@Serah> | Sponges? |
| 04:41 | <@Shoukanjuu> | They're significantly harder to pop, and clsoe to the same mass |
| 04:41 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Oh, sponges...I suppose that'd work |
| 04:41 | <@Serah> | You can get sportsballs made of spongeymass that will hold water. |
| 04:41 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I didn't know that. Then again, I think the last time I went outside was about a month ago |
| 04:41 | <@Shoukanjuu> | x_X |
| 04:41 | <@Serah> | Most of the water will likely be driven away by the acceleration, but that is inconsequencial. |
| 04:41 | <@Shoukanjuu> | The sponge would get there, that's the key |
| 04:42 | <@Serah> | I've considered having a big "stopper" to force the springs back into position. |
| 04:42 | <@Serah> | And I'm considering using car suspension springs. |
| 04:43 | <@Serah> | It'd take 5 men to load it, sure, and they'd need gloves. This doesn't bother me. |
| 04:44 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I don't remember what they're called, but the notches could be put in the hammer |
| 04:45 | <@Shoukanjuu> | and a pair of cranks could be used for all five |
| 04:45 | <@Shoukanjuu> | you have a few people loading it, so.. |
| 04:45 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Since you said it was spring loaded |
| 04:49 | <@Serah> | I seem to recall a similar invention in a movie being called a porcupine. |
| 04:49 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I have no idea what it's called, but I know it would get the tension from the springs. The next step is how to get the crank/lever/whathaveyou away from it without losing force from the spring |
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| 04:50 | <@Serah> | That is my most major issue. |
| 04:50 | <@Serah> | Firing mechanism is easy, loading mechanism is hard. |
| 04:51 | <@Serah> | Hmm... |
| 04:52 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Ah |
| 04:52 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Ypu can bring it back to an acceptable level |
| 04:52 | <@Shoukanjuu> | ...no, that wouldn't work... |
| 04:52 | <@Serah> | ? |
| 04:53 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Well, it could if you had something holding the spring back that isn't the crank |
| 04:53 | <@Shoukanjuu> | or you could just release the crank |
| 04:53 | <@Shoukanjuu> | But that can get dangerous |
| 04:53 | <@Shoukanjuu> | since there are multiple barrels |
| 04:54 | <@Shoukanjuu> | the former option would work |
| 04:54 | <@Shoukanjuu> | if there was something holding the spring back and you just....hit it |
| 04:54 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Like a levert |
| 04:54 | <@Shoukanjuu> | lever* |
| 04:54 | <@Shoukanjuu> | and it would release it |
| 04:54 | <@Shoukanjuu> | One for every barrel |
| 04:56 | <@Serah> | Hmmm... |
| 04:56 | <@Serah> | I need to draw something. |
| 05:01 | <@Shoukanjuu> | I draw like john madden. |
| 05:01 | <@Shoukanjuu> | So...goodluck with that |
| 05:03 | <@Serah> | John madden? |
| 05:04 | <@Shoukanjuu> | He's...a football announcer |
| 05:04 | <@Shoukanjuu> | He draws plays as if to tell people what happened, sometimes |
| 05:04 | <@Serah> | Amrican football or soccer football? |
| 05:05 | <@Shoukanjuu> | 'american' |
| 05:05 | <@Serah> | Never heard of him. |
| 05:05 | <@Shoukanjuu> | He's horribly inept at describing what happened, though, in both drawing and telling :P |
| 05:05 | <@Shoukanjuu> | people joke about it all the time |
| 05:06 | <@Shoukanjuu> | hrm...where am I going to get a screwdriver this small without getting a screwdriver this small >:/ |
| 05:10 | | * Shoukanjuu breaks a razor off his shaving razor |
| 05:11 | <@Shoukanjuu> | When I grow up, I wanna be just like macgyver |
| 05:11 | <@Serah> | And how long till you're grown? |
| 05:11 | <@Shoukanjuu> | About 8 years at least. |
| 05:13 | <@Shoukanjuu> | they're significantly wider than I thought...curses |
| 05:14 | <@Serah> | How old are you again? |
| 05:15 | <@Shoukanjuu> | 19 :P |
| 05:15 | <@Serah> | Oh, then I didn't overshoot you. :p |
| 05:16 | <@Shoukanjuu> | How do you mean? |
| 05:16 | <@Serah> | Guesstimating your age. |
| 05:16 | | * Shoukanjuu uses nailclippers to widen an edge from a clothespin's clamp |
| 05:16 | <@Shoukanjuu> | you thought I was younger, 18 or so? Why? o: |
| 05:19 | <@Shoukanjuu> | .......or I could just use the screwdriver I used to open the thing in the first place ._. |
| 05:22 | <@Serah> | I can't explain what estimate or why, but i'm rarely too far off. |
| 05:22 | <@Serah> | I can't explain how I do it either. |
| 05:22 | <@Serah> | I just do. |
| 05:27 | <@Shoukanjuu> | this airport update... |
| 05:27 | <@Shoukanjuu> | Sounds like it fixes Airport extreme's problem wi th big networks |
| 05:28 | <@Shoukanjuu> | be right back o: |
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| 07:09 | < Shoukanjuu> | Rigged some magic key with cardboard and paper |
| 07:10 | < Shoukanjuu> | And everything seems to work...! |
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| 08:51 | < Shoukanjuu> | Basking is the summer sun, I greeted the seabirds. |
| 08:51 | < Shoukanjuu> | But then...I entered the demon's den. |
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| 08:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | That was shortlived, but classic R-type, alright. |
| 08:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | >:3 |
| 08:59 | <@McMartin> | R-Type Final? |
| 09:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | Indeed |
| 09:09 | < Shoukanjuu> | I thought I was smart and awesome, played the first level in R-Typer mode |
| 09:09 | < Shoukanjuu> | The boss destroyed me |
| 09:09 | < Shoukanjuu> | "Ooh, he's opening up, let's shoot hi-OMGLASER |
| 09:10 | < Shoukanjuu> | Then I get past that part on my next life |
| 09:10 | < Shoukanjuu> | And get killed by a spike...that happened twice, so gameover |
| 09:11 | < Shoukanjuu> | Still, I'll get better. Need a stock controller if I'm going to play it, and my PS2 type is apparently stupid |
| 09:12 | < Shoukanjuu> | I looked at a few pics, then opened the stupid thing up and fixed it like it needed to be |
| 09:12 | | * Shoukanjuu saves twenty dollars by using tape and printerpaper |
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| 15:07 | <@gnolam> | Hey, Armadillo Aerospace actually got their lander working. |
| 15:12 | | * gnolam stabs Windows Update with a dull dagger. |
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| 15:21 | | * Shoukanjuu messily sews Windows Update up, leaving the dagger blade inside |
| 16:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Shoukanjuu: tape and printer paper? |
| 16:45 | < Shoukanjuu> | When I grow up, I wanna be just like Mecgyver : > |
| 16:45 | < Shoukanjuu> | Macgyver* |
| 16:49 | < Shoukanjuu> | I had no care for warranties, especially because I bought it on ebay, used |
| 16:49 | < Shoukanjuu> | No warranty here ?\o_?/? |
| 16:50 | < Shoukanjuu> | So I located what the so called "Magic key" did |
| 16:50 | < Shoukanjuu> | Two sensors is all that is needed :/ I taped one down because it wasn't near anything in particular |
| 16:50 | < Shoukanjuu> | and the other, since it was on the power, I just pushed down with paper and taped over the paper to keep it there |
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| 16:51 | < Shoukanjuu> | And then I saw that people already do this. |
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| 17:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Shoukanjuu: and you already have the requisite boot disc? |
| 17:20 | < Shoukanjuu> | TF: Naturally. |
| 17:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Handy. |
| 17:21 | < Shoukanjuu> | I bought it with a fliptop, thinking that that was all I would need. |
| 17:22 | < Shoukanjuu> | Surely it would come with everything you would need to do this. No, not at all. |
| 17:23 | < Shoukanjuu> | Instead of admitting my fault and buying the rest of the stuff, I just found ways around it |
| 17:29 | | Bobsentme [Bobsentme@Nightstar-25923.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 17:29 | < Bobsentme> | Need help with a PRNG on an extra credit assignment, when someone gets the chance. |
| 17:29 | < Bobsentme> | I've got this so far: |
| 17:29 | < Bobsentme> | srand(time(NULL)); |
| 17:29 | < Bobsentme> | Winning_Number= (int)rand() % 36; |
| 17:30 | < Bobsentme> | because I'm not sure how to modify the rand() equation to pull a more random set of numbers from 0 to 36 without screwing up the equation. |
| 17:30 | < Bobsentme> | Any help would be appreciated. |
| 17:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | What is it you're after? |
| 17:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | You want to write a better PRNG to replace rand() with? |
| 17:37 | < Bobsentme> | Something to help randomize the numbers a bit more than system time, I think. |
| 17:37 | <@gnolam> | That will only affect the seed, not the randomness of the numbers themselves. |
| 17:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Quitoe. |
| 17:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | *quite. |
| 17:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although you might want to use (s)random rather than (s)rand, assuming that you're targeting POSIX rather than C89 |
| 17:38 | < Bobsentme> | Aaaaaand now you've lost me. |
| 17:38 | | * Bobsentme is writing this for Extra Credit in C programming class. |
| 17:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which one of us, and when? |
| 17:38 | <@gnolam> | As for your question: at least with GNU's libc, the lower bit randomness of rand() is pretty bad (well, all of rand() is bad - if you want a decent PRNG, just go download a Mersenne Twister), so you might want to shift its return a bit to the right before the modulo. |
| 17:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | gnolam: actually, glibc rand uses the same algorithm as random() |
| 17:39 | <@gnolam> | Yes? |
| 17:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | NOTES |
| 17:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | The versions of rand() and srand() in the Linux C Library use the same random number generator as random(3) and srandom(3), so the lower-order |
| 17:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | bits should be as random as the higher-order bits. However, on older rand() implementations, and on current implementations on different systems, |
| 17:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | the lower-order bits are much less random than the higher-order bits. Do not use this function in applications intended to be portable when good |
| 17:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | randomness is needed. |
| 17:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | No shifting needed. |
| 17:40 | <@gnolam> | Is random() even in POSIX? I seem to remember it being completely non-standard. |
| 17:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | 4.3BSD, POSIX.1-2001 |
| 17:40 | <@gnolam> | Ah. New addition. :) |
| 17:40 | < Bobsentme> | Ok, so library for random is...? |
| 17:41 | < Bobsentme> | I'm using the standard stdlib.h for rand. |
| 17:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | #include <stdlib.h> and you should be good to go |
| 17:41 | <@gnolam> | What platform are you targeting, BTW? |
| 17:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | *if* you are on a POSIX.1 system. |
| 17:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you're targeting, say, windows, all bets are off. |
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| 17:41 | < Bobsentme> | Windows systems. Just using a console window. |
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| 17:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | O. |
| 17:41 | <@gnolam> | I'm assuming MinGW. Then what I said about bitshifting holds. |
| 17:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | What development environment? |
| 17:42 | < Bobsentme> | Bloodshed Dev-C/C++ compiler. |
| 17:42 | < Bobsentme> | Turbo C in class. |
| 17:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is mingw based. Ok. |
| 17:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 17:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, in that case we should probably stick to ANSI. |
| 17:42 | < Bobsentme> | Ok. |
| 17:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, as gnolam says, right shift before modulus. |
| 17:43 | < Bobsentme> | so...add 1 to random number? |
| 17:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, right shift. |
| 17:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | The >> operator. |
| 17:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Have you used the shift operators before? |
| 17:44 | < Bobsentme> | nope. |
| 17:45 | < Bobsentme> | I saw a few of those when researching this problem. Not sure how/why they're used. |
| 17:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | You are aware how numbers are stored internally, I hope? As byte sequences, which are themselves bit sequences? |
| 17:46 | | * Bobsentme nods |
| 17:46 | < Bobsentme> | First thing we covered. |
| 17:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. (x >> n) is the value of x, with all the bits moved n places to the right. |
| 17:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | 0x12345678 >> 12 is 0x00012345 |
| 17:47 | < Bobsentme> | interesting. |
| 17:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | << is the same thing, except it shifts left instead of right. |
| 17:47 | < Bobsentme> | ok. |
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| 17:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | The issue with rand that the man page talks about is that the low order bits are much less random than the high order |
| 17:48 | < Bobsentme> | ok. |
| 17:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Eg, high randomness -> 0x12345678 <- low randomness |
| 17:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | So the suggestion is to use right shift to discard the low-order bits, demoting the high-order ones into their place and using those. |
| 17:49 | <@gnolam> | Since only the lower order bits will matter after the modulo. |
| 17:49 | < Bobsentme> | Quite frankly, that seems genius to me. |
| 17:50 | < Bobsentme> | But how do I know how many to shift it? |
| 17:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | sizeof(int) will get you the size of an int on that system. |
| 17:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | (in bytes) |
| 17:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you want n bits, shift (sizeof(int)*8 - n) to the right. |
| 17:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Make sense? |
| 17:52 | < Bobsentme> | Yes! |
| 17:53 | < Bobsentme> | Thank you |
| 17:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pity you aren't targeting linux, then we could just say "read /dev/urandom" |
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| 17:53 | < Bobsentme> | Yeah, i'm noticing that windows has a severe lack of programming options. |
| 17:54 | < Bobsentme> | Well...easy ones, anyways. |
| 17:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | But given the constraints...this isn't ideal, but it's reasonably portable and compensates for the most glaring deficiency in rand() |
| 17:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Windows actually has a rather large and well-developed API. |
| 17:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, it's different from everything else on earth; code using it is completely nonportable. |
| 17:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's also very poorly documented, IME. |
| 17:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and then there's the systems hungarian, and the penchant for one function that does everything and takes twelve arguments...) |
| 17:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | The typical way one deals with this is to either use ANSI C89 or C99, the lowest common denominator and thus the most portable (which is what we're doing here); use POSIX and target Cygwin or MSYS rather than windows directly; use another compatibility library like SDL; write seperate versions; or just abandon portability. |
| 17:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Constraining ourselves to ANSI C89 is rather cramped, but has the advantage of working goddamn everywhere. |
| 17:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, almost everywhere. |
| 17:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | There are some embedded systems that are missing <stdio.h>, for example. |
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| 18:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Windows programming looks harder than it is because of the initial setup cost, I think. *nix systems tend to come with a toolchain and developer documentation, or can install same with a single gesture. |
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| 18:07 | | * Bobsentme nods |
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| 19:46 | < Bobsentme> | For the record: 245 lines of code to write a Roulette game program. |
| 19:47 | < Bobsentme> | And that's without determining black / white. |
| 19:47 | < Bobsentme> | err..black/red. |
| 19:47 | < Vornicus> | Black/Red is then just a 246th line. |
| 19:47 | < Bobsentme> | (It does, however, let you bet on odds/even) |
| 19:48 | < Vornicus> | well, okay, probably mroe than that. |
| 19:48 | < Bobsentme> | yes. |
| 19:48 | < Bobsentme> | WAAAY more than one line. |
| 19:48 | < Vornicus> | But, the important question: what language? |
| 19:48 | < Bobsentme> | C |
| 19:48 | < Vornicus> | aha. |
| 19:48 | < Bobsentme> | Now, quick question: Do Pointers count as local variables? |
| 19:49 | < Bobsentme> | (one of the rules for this extra credit assignment is to use only local variables) |
| 19:50 | < Bobsentme> | Also, not sure Pastebin's limits, but I'd be happy to paste bin this if anyone wants to point out flaws of my code. |
| 19:50 | < Vornicus> | I hope so. But honestly for Roulette I'd have a const global table of structs defining the various possible outcomes. |
| 20:05 | | mode/#code [+v Bobsentme] by gnolam |
| 20:07 | <@gnolam> | Shoot. |
| 20:07 | <+Bobsentme> | thanks |
| 20:08 | <+Bobsentme> | http://rafb.net/p/nD57qp21.html |
| 20:14 | < Vornicus> | s/Evan/Even/ |
| 20:14 | <+Bobsentme> | doh. |
| 20:15 | <@gnolam> | The first thing that comes to mind is that a void main() is illegal. :P |
| 20:15 | < Vornicus> | yeah, in C it should be int main |
| 20:16 | <+Bobsentme> | teacher is actually teaching us that void main (void) is proper. (I understand it's illegal everywhere else, but teacher insists this is right for her class) |
| 20:16 | <@gnolam> | And I personally find anonymous prototypes hideous, but eh, taste varies. |
| 20:16 | <@gnolam> | Your teacher is wrong. |
| 20:17 | | * Bobsentme nods. |
| 20:17 | < Vornicus> | And yeah, I have to agree with gnolam on the anonymous prototypes too |
| 20:18 | < Vornicus> | Mainly because the caller needs more context than the type of the input. |
| 20:18 | <+Bobsentme> | Anonymous meaning the int %function (int) lines? |
| 20:18 | < Vornicus> | Yeah. |
| 20:18 | < Vornicus> | compare: |
| 20:18 | < Vornicus> | int Figure_Winnings(int,int,int,int,int,int); |
| 20:18 | <+Bobsentme> | ok, that is yet another unfortunate teaching from C programming class. |
| 20:18 | <@gnolam> | Also, the *SingleNumPTR and *DozenPTR pointers in main are unused and unnecessary. |
| 20:18 | < Vornicus> | int Figure_Winnings(int Dozen, int Winning_Number,int Total_Winnings, int BetType, int BetAmt, int SingleNum); |
| 20:21 | <@gnolam> | And srand(time(NULL)) should be called just once, at the start of the program. Not for each rand() call. |
| 20:21 | < Vornicus> | Bruce Schneier can van eck phreak Waldo on every page from three bookshelves away. |
| 20:21 | <+Bobsentme> | ? |
| 20:21 | <+Bobsentme> | wow, I've seen people go crazy over code, but didn't mean to send vorn over the edge with mine. |
| 20:22 | <@gnolam> | Bruce Schneier knows Alice and Bob's shared secret. |
| 20:22 | <@McMartin> | What is this, Bruce Scneier Facts? |
| 20:23 | < Vornicus> | Actually yes. |
| 20:25 | <+Bobsentme> | Alright, fixed. |
| 20:25 | | * Bobsentme is considering himself done with this, as he's already lost 7 hours to it (and had a damn fun time doing it, but still) |
| 20:29 | | * Bobsentme is away: Chores! |
| 20:29 | <+Bobsentme> | Thanks guys. |
| 20:29 | <+Bobsentme> | as always, your input/output is appreciated. |
| 20:43 | <@AnnoDomini> | Vornicus: Vornwiki down. Anno sad. :( |
| 20:45 | < Vornicus> | fixed |
| 20:48 | <@AnnoDomini> | Thank you. |
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| 21:05 | | * Vornicus fiddles with KB. |
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| 22:05 | | * Vornicus gets his first results back from his data analysis, discovers that KB does in fact guarantee that all 14 spells are available for purchase. |
| 22:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | I don't know how to make codes for dynamic memory addresses. |
| 22:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | [/woe] |
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| 22:20 | | * ToxicFrog eyebrows at Shou |
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| 22:23 | < Shoukanjuu> | Star Ocean is filled with DMA. SP, EXP, money...I don't remember it being this hard for anything else |
| 22:23 | < Shoukanjuu> | Then again, I don't remember making codes and finding out that nobody else made them, toto, either |
| 22:23 | < Shoukanjuu> | too* |
| 22:24 | < Shoukanjuu> | Eitherway, I'm exhausted. |
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| 23:06 | | * Vornicus quietly makes 320 files for testing. |
| --- Log closed Sun Oct 26 00:00:10 2008 |