| --- Log opened Mon Sep 29 00:00:49 2008 |
| 00:04 | <@gnolam> | T-minus 5 minutes and finally some rocket footage now. |
| 00:04 | <@gnolam> | Oop, wrong channel. |
| 00:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | I'm interested now. |
| 00:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | Rocket footage, you say. |
| 00:06 | <@gnolam> | SpaceX Falcon 1 launch attempt #4. |
| 00:07 | <@gnolam> | I'm watching the webcast at http://www.spacex.com/webcast.php |
| 00:07 | < Shoukanjuu> | I see. |
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| 04:24 | < Consul> | Looks like my DSP project might have taken on a new and interesting direction. |
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| 04:26 | < Consul> | And it's probably stupid of me to even try what I'm about to try, but I stopped caring. |
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| 12:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | When the pink terror raises his fist, even the strong tremble in fear. |
| 12:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | Hehe, Kirby in the arena. |
| 14:10 | <@McMartin> | I? |
| 14:10 | <@McMartin> | Kur'bii, the Devouring Pink! |
| 14:10 | <@McMartin> | When the stars are right, he shall arise, from where he slumbers |
| 14:10 | <@McMartin> | In the Land of Dreams, beyond all Thought and Sanity |
| 14:10 | <@McMartin> | I?!!! |
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| 14:28 | < Shoukanjuu> | There's a Meta Knight game thing. |
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| 14:34 | < Shoukanjuu> | It's pretty much playing through the ENTIRE GAME...with Metaknight |
| 14:34 | < Shoukanjuu> | Cutscenes have Metaknight instead...and there's al evel accessible only by him o: |
| 14:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | Well, that was fun. Took me an entire hour to complete XD |
| 14:42 | | * TheWatcher ponders |
| 14:43 | <@TheWatcher> | I think that, aside from Saturday, I have spent over 8 hours a day, each day, for the last 10 days, coding in perl. |
| 14:44 | <@TheWatcher> | I keep getting the feeling I should be looking over my shoulder to catch sight of the terrible tentacled monstrosities from beyond I may have unleashed. |
| 14:45 | < Shoukanjuu> | Or perhaps raptors. |
| 14:45 | < Shoukanjuu> | Did you unleash raptors? I'd rather fight horribly tentacled monstrosities than raptors. |
| 14:45 | < Shoukanjuu> | I mean, they're raptors. How do you fight them? |
| 14:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | What is the Refactor Tractor, anyways |
| 14:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 14:46 | < Shoukanjuu> | Refactor tractor? >_> |
| 14:46 | <@gnolam> | Something I sorely need right now. |
| 14:47 | <@gnolam> | TheWatcher: In his house at R'lyeh, Larry Wall lies dreaming. |
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| 14:52 | < Vornicus> | ToxicFrog: I don't know, it's something jerith did a few weeks ago |
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| 15:17 | < Shoukanjuu> | Error code 0 v_V |
| 15:18 | < Shoukanjuu> | I wish he'd have told me that before he tried to fix it |
| 15:19 | < Shoukanjuu> | Grandpa couldn't move anything to his windows partition, so he started deleting things in it...V_v |
| 15:20 | < Shoukanjuu> | I just reinstalled XP because he completely ruined it, and he showed me the error he got when trying to move the file over |
| 15:20 | < Shoukanjuu> | "Error Code 0" |
| 15:21 | < Shoukanjuu> | That is to say, file is too damned big V_V |
| 15:23 | < Shoukanjuu> | I'm pretty sure it's 'cause it's FAT32 |
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| 16:34 | <@AnnoDomini> | WHAT THE FUCK OPEN OFFICE! |
| 16:34 | <@AnnoDomini> | It randomly deleted most of the tables in this document. ;_; |
| 16:34 | <@gnolam> | A common reaction. |
| 16:35 | <@AnnoDomini> | I spent HOURS typing them up. |
| 16:35 | <@AnnoDomini> | Now all I have is a PDF of that document with the tables. |
| 16:35 | < Shoukanjuu> | ....Damn x_x |
| 16:35 | <@AnnoDomini> | But now I'm not sure I want to retype that, just so OO can lose them again. |
| 16:36 | <@gnolam> | Can't you copy+paste them from the PDF? |
| 16:36 | < Shoukanjuu> | Or is the PDF more picture and less text? >_> |
| 16:36 | <@AnnoDomini> | Wait, it seems the tables are still here. |
| 16:37 | <@AnnoDomini> | Only their vertical size was set to 0. |
| 16:37 | < Shoukanjuu> | ....how the...fuck? |
| 16:37 | <@AnnoDomini> | How the fuck do I resize them back to normal? |
| 16:37 | < Shoukanjuu> | See, this is why we need neural interfaces |
| 16:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | Can you do that manually? Or maybe select the cells... |
| 16:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | Well, try to, I guess |
| 16:38 | <@AnnoDomini> | What cells? There is NOTHING to click. |
| 16:38 | <@gnolam> | AnnoDomini: Shift-select the row numbers. |
| 16:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | Yeah, that's whatt I'm thinking |
| 16:38 | <@gnolam> | Then go format->row->height. |
| 16:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | Or would the row numbers be gone, too? |
| 16:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | gnolam: But I cannot select the TABLE. |
| 16:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | There is a big white space where it was supposed to be. |
| 16:39 | < Shoukanjuu> | Hmm. |
| 16:39 | < Shoukanjuu> | Maybe....Undo? >_> |
| 16:40 | <@AnnoDomini> | Undo what? I didn't DO anything. |
| 16:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | Well something did something to do that |
| 16:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | You could, perhaps, if there was a table |
| 16:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | Select a cell on each side of the cells that have vertical 0 |
| 16:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | shift clicking |
| 16:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | Selecting the ones, and fixing it that way |
| 16:41 | < Shoukanjuu> | But you said no table |
| 16:41 | < Shoukanjuu> | So... >_> |
| 16:42 | <@AnnoDomini> | It seems doing something to the table and then undoing it restores it. |
| 16:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | And then it breaks again? |
| 16:42 | <@AnnoDomini> | I've found a way to select the damned things, though it doesn't look like I'm selecting them. |
| 16:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | Well, yeah. |
| 16:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | But the fact is that they ARE selected, even if you cant' see them |
| 16:44 | <@jerith> | The Refactor Tractor is the metaphorical tool used to haul blocks of code around while refactoring on a grand scale. |
| 16:45 | <@jerith> | If you're hacking in fewer than four files simultaneously, you're not riding the refactor tractor. |
| 16:47 | < Shoukanjuu> | It doesn't sound like ramblings of old men, now. \o/ |
| 16:52 | <@jerith> | Am I a rambling old man? |
| 16:53 | <@AnnoDomini> | gnolam: Does OO have a keyboard combination for capitalizing, like Word's Shift+F3? |
| 16:54 | < Shoukanjuu> | Jerith: No, I just missed the topic change abotu the refactor tractor, and it sounded to me like something that came from the mind of a rambling hobo. Now that I can see that the name is warranted not only by what it does, but HOW it does it, it's no longer rambling. |
| 16:55 | <@jerith> | I think the term was invented by a coworker of mine. |
| 16:55 | < Shoukanjuu> | Is HE a rambling old man? |
| 16:55 | < Shoukanjuu> | :P |
| 16:55 | <@jerith> | I grumbled about having to refactor a massive chunk of Java and he told me I was riding the refactor tractor. |
| 16:55 | < Shoukanjuu> | Hehe |
| 16:56 | <@jerith> | He only has a few months on me, but he's a rambling old man. |
| 16:57 | | * Shoukanjuu nods |
| 16:57 | <@jerith> | I, of course, am enthusiastic and in my prime. |
| 16:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | Awesome. |
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| 19:20 | <@Doctor_Nick> | WERE ALL GOING TO FUCKING DIE |
| 19:26 | <@gnolam> | Eventually. |
| 19:27 | <@EvilDarkLord> | And only some of us are going to caps lock hell. |
| 19:27 | < Shoukanjuu> | Meat bags >_> |
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| 20:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Heh. |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, my CIS*4150 prof requires all assignments to be handed in by SVN. |
| 20:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | We each get our own SVN repo, we submit stuff by putting it in tags/<assignment-name>/ |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | After finishing A1, I did the following submit message: |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tagged assignment 1. |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sidenote: SCREW YOU, SVN, and your half-hearted excuse at a tagging mechanism, and your |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | habit of vomiting ".svn" folders across the ENTIRE WORKING TREE and whining constantly |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | if you forget to add a directory before operating in it. |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I can't even use git-svn all the time, because I need to "tag" (insofar as what you |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | do in svn can be called tagging) things. |
| 20:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, I just needed to vent a little :) |
| 20:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Figuring no-one would ever read the commit body, just the one-line summary. |
| 20:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | At the end of class today, she stopped me on the way out... |
| 20:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...to say that it was the best commit message she's read in a while, as most people just do one-liners (if anything), and she appreciates a good rant. |
| 20:19 | < Shoukanjuu> | Ask her out once you're not in her class anymore? :D |
| 20:19 | | * Shoukanjuu double thumbs up |
| 20:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 20:23 | < Shoukanjuu> | No? >_> |
| 20:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | One moment. |
| 20:23 | < Shoukanjuu> | It's a joke, don't ellipse at me x_X |
| 20:24 | | * ToxicFrog steps out, rummages through the storage closet, and comes back with what at first appears to be a futuristic torture device but on closer inspection turns out to be a reified Perl interpreter |
| 20:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hold still, this will only hurt for a few hours... |
| 20:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Bwahahaha |
| 20:26 | <@TheWatcher> | That is evil. I approve. |
| 20:43 | < Shoukanjuu> | ... |
| 20:44 | | * Shoukanjuu plagues TF with spreadsheets that have height and width at 0. |
| 20:44 | < Shoukanjuu> | cells with* |
| 20:57 | <@gnolam> | ToxicFrog: heh. |
| 21:00 | | * gnolam is also starting to acquire some dislike of SVN. |
| 21:01 | <@gnolam> | Although our SVN repos are our own. We simply send in diffs against r1. |
| 21:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | My main objection is that the insistence on a single, linear history kills both branching and tagging in the face. |
| 21:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | So you have this half-assed workaround using directories with names-by-convention. |
| 21:14 | <@McMartin> | Having spent far too much time with CVS, I refuse to see this as a disadvantage. |
| 21:14 | <@McMartin> | Nothing says <3 like having commits fail half-completed and with half of the change committed. |
| 21:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | How do you mean? |
| 21:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I'm using git here as my basis for comparison, not CVS, as I've never used the latter) |
| 21:16 | <@McMartin> | CVS does not have a linear history. |
| 21:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | (git stores commits as nodes in a digraph, so a branch is a seperate line of development, not a seperate directory, and you can easily diff and merge between them; similarly, a tag is a pointer to a single commit) |
| 21:16 | <@McMartin> | CVS does not, in fact, realize that different directories are part of the same repository. |
| 21:16 | | * gnolam shudders. |
| 21:16 | <@gnolam> | CVS. |
| 21:16 | | * gnolam shudders again. |
| 21:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 21:17 | <@McMartin> | This means that the locks are not repository level |
| 21:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's, um |
| 21:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | what? |
| 21:17 | <@McMartin> | This means that there is no linear history, and that commits can collide. |
| 21:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | I also think we're using the term "linear history" in different ways |
| 21:17 | <@McMartin> | I think you're assuming far, far, too much for baseline requirements for a concurrent versioning system. |
| 21:18 | <@McMartin> | I'm using linear history to mean "it is possible to uniquely identify a point in the repository's evolution." |
| 21:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. Both SVN and git have this. |
| 21:18 | <@McMartin> | Yes., |
| 21:18 | <@McMartin> | SVN is, very, very explicitly, CVS with the epic fail removed. |
| 21:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, in SVN, each commit has exactly one descendant, the commit after it, repository-wide. |
| 21:18 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 21:19 | <@McMartin> | For CVS, replace "commit" with "file" and you'll see why a lot of people don't consider this that awful. |
| 21:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | This means that there is no actual concept, at the tool level, of a branch |
| 21:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | And while such a thing isn't a requirement for a useful version control system, I find it to be very, very useful. |
| 21:19 | <@McMartin> | This strikes me as no more intrinsically terrible than the fact that the C library has no actual concept of a socket, preferring "file". |
| 21:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Likewise, it's useful to be able to express tags as "this commit over here" rather than "this pile of hardlinks, which may or may not actually manifest as hardlinks on any client system" |
| 21:20 | | * McMartin prefers to express tags as "Revision #X", outside of the system. |
| 21:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | The use case here is being able to say "checkout v1.1" without recalling what revision number corresponds to that release. |
| 21:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, it's not necessary. But it's ice. |
| 21:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | *nice. |
| 21:21 | <@McMartin> | (For added horror, SVN is the fourth in a series of revision control systems that were "my predecessor with the epic fail removed" - CVS's predecessor was even worse) |
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| 21:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | (RCS and SCCS?) |
| 21:21 | <@McMartin> | (Yes. Neither of which allow concurrent versioning.) |
| 21:22 | <@McMartin> | (which is to say, exactly one person is allowed to be working on the repository at a time.) |
| 21:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | But yeah. Part of this is fundamentally different design philosophies. SVN is, as you say, CVS with the fail removed; git and the other DCVSes are "let's see if we can come up with something better at the concept level than the SVN family" |
| 21:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Personally, I think they succeeded, and much prefer the way git structures its repositories. |
| 21:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | And since I'm used to branches and tags, when I have to work in SVN which can't even fake them well, it chafes. |
| 21:26 | <@McMartin> | CVS actually has better tag support than SVN. |
| 21:27 | <@McMartin> | Removing tags and branch markers was an explicit design choice because hey the system knows what directories are now, dirmoves will cover it. |
| 21:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | "branch markers"? |
| 21:28 | <@McMartin> | I forget how CVS did branches but they were distressingly similar to mere tags. |
| 21:29 | <@McMartin> | You could also have a tag not correlate with any ever actually existing repository snapshot. |
| 21:29 | <@McMartin> | Whether that's a horrific design flaw or a necessary feature depends a great deal on who you ask. =P |
| 21:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 21:30 | <@McMartin> | (UQM had a fight over this, actually) |
| 21:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | git sort of has the former (a branch is, like a tag, a pointer to a commit; however, it's "the latest commit in this line of descent", not "this specific commit"). |
| 21:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | It doesn't have the latter; a tag or branch always points to a valid commit, unless you've manually taken apart and damaged the repository or your filesystem is failing or something. |
| 21:31 | <@McMartin> | In CVS, you can associate tags with individual revisions of files. There is no global revision number, so checking out a tagged version is "give me every file that has this as a tag at the revision that tag lives at." |
| 21:31 | <@McMartin> | And you can shift that per file if you find a show-stopper later. |
| 21:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 21:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Git doesn't do the whole per-file revision thing, and having used both it and p4 (which does), I think I prefer per-commit. |
| 21:33 | <@McMartin> | OH GODS YES. |
| 21:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | (p4 at least does have a way to say "the state of the entire repository as of this commit": the changelist number) |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | IIRC, in SCCS, you had to check out and lock the whole repository while you were doing your edits |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | In RCS, you could instead lock only the files you were working on ++ |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | Then CVS is RCS but it handles conflicts for you 90% of the time. |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | But one that happened, file-level locking stopped being a feature. |
| 21:34 | <@McMartin> | s/one/once/ |
| 21:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | My dad swears by lock-modify-unlock over copy-modify-merge, on the grounds that merge can (and sometimes does) get it wrong, and only really works for line-oriented text anyways. |
| 21:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | And for LMU to be feasable, you really do need more granularity than "the entire repo". |
| 21:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | (although his dream is for it to be more granular than per-file; he wants a code-aware VCS that can lock at, say, the method level) |
| 21:38 | <@McMartin> | It can work with paragraph-oriented text as well, but all of these statements are basically true. |
| 21:39 | <@McMartin> | But yes. SVN is part of a chain of revision control systems each built on fixing the then-perceived epic fail of their immediate predecessors, while also as much as possible not breaking any of their scripts. |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have occasionally toyed with implementing a locking system for git. |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | It has a hook system, which is permitted to reject attempted operations, so... |
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| --- Log closed Tue Sep 30 00:00:08 2008 |