| --- Log opened Sun Sep 21 00:00:31 2008 |
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| 00:33 | < Consul> | What's the difference between a frame-based application and a dialog-based one? I get what frames and dialogs are, I just wish I had some examples... |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | AIUI, when a frame-based app needs to tell you something, it adjusts the layout of its main window to accomodate more or fewer frames |
| 00:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | A dialog-based one will spawn a seperate window (a dialog) |
| 00:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | But this is just guessing based on the names, IANAUID |
| 00:36 | < Consul> | Well, I'll go dialog-based, then. |
| 00:37 | < Consul> | Hrm... "Create and use pre-compiled header." |
| 00:38 | < Consul> | I don't know what the hell makes me think I can do this, but nobody else is. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | That speeds up compilation by creating binary forms of the header files which are used by the compiler. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think. |
| 00:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Setting up a C/++ project in an IDE? |
| 00:43 | < Consul> | Yeah |
| 00:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | A GUI C/++ project, even? |
| 00:44 | < Consul> | But I think I'm going to use QT instead of wxWidgets. |
| 00:44 | < Consul> | If I even decide to do it. |
| 00:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | You have chosen wisely. |
| 00:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | wxWidgets is not a GUI library; it is a library for testing build-time error reporting on a wide variety of systems. |
| 00:45 | < Consul> | Heh |
| 00:49 | < Consul> | And of course, there's no AMD64 build of the latest Puredata for Ubuntu. |
| 00:52 | < Consul> | I spent a lot of time hunting down a build for the latest VLC for Ubuntu 64 today, and it still won't play the video part of Dirac files. |
| 00:52 | < Consul> | And that's one program I certainly do not feel like trying to build myself. |
| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | 64-bit on Ubuntu is kind of pain, because it can't automatically handle 32-bit apps for you |
| 00:53 | < Consul> | Sadly, though, Linux is far ahead of windows on 64-bit support. |
| 00:54 | < Consul> | Still a long way to go, though. |
| 00:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | One of the reasons I like Fedora is that the 64-bit version will seamlessly handle 32-bit libraries and whatnot for running a mixed 32/64 system |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | As far as video files go, you might try mplayer |
| 00:58 | < Consul> | Well, I specifically wanted to check out Dirac. |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | So far, Fedora has the best 64/32-bit hybridization I've experienced. |
| 00:58 | < Consul> | Is there a KDE version of Fedora? |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | Fedora classically installs both. |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | You have to go out of your way (as I do) to not install KDE. |
| 00:58 | < Consul> | I really like Kubuntu on all other counts. |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | With the new "spin" |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | thing Fedora's doing, there may be a KDE-centric spin |
| 00:59 | | * McMartin checks. |
| 00:59 | < Consul> | But yes, for a 32/64 hybrid system, it's lacking. |
| 00:59 | | * McMartin has been running Fedora 64-bit for the past three or four releases. |
| 00:59 | < Consul> | Gentoo did a mixed system pretty well, overall, once you could get the damn thing installed. |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | There are occasional hiccups where 32-bit apps are installed by accident and produce resolution failures later. |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | But if you erase the .i386 package and reupdate the problem consistently goes away. |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | Libraries are always set up to go both ways. Getting a 32-bit only program to compile is generally as easy as adding CFLAGES=-m32 before make. |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | That said, Fedora 10 is coming out very soon |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | A quick check shows that the LiveCDs have GNOME and KDE spins, and the Install Media does both. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | Well, actually "All Three", because Fedora!XFCE is much less GNOME-y than Ubuntu's. |
| 01:06 | | * McMartin also ponders. "Hey, wait a second!" |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | I have a massive virtualization infrastructure on every computer I own. |
| 01:06 | | * McMartin grabs the KDE version of Fedora 10 Alpha. |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hee |
| 01:15 | < Consul> | I really hate not being a developer trying to debug build problems. |
| 01:16 | < Consul> | ./configure: line 8298: syntax error near unexpected token `SINF,' |
| 01:16 | < Consul> | ./configure: line 8298: `AST_EXT_LIB_CHECK(SINF, m, sinf)' |
| 01:16 | < Consul> | The configure script was made with autoconf, by the way. |
| 01:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | What are you trying to build? |
| 01:19 | < Consul> | I think I know why packages like this are so far behind in version in the distros, because the package maintainers are ready to kill someone by the time they finally get it working at all. |
| 01:19 | < Consul> | Puredata 0.40.3 |
| 01:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 01:20 | < Consul> | Actually, Puredata 0.40.3 Extended |
| 01:20 | < Consul> | The only build offered on the web site is for Ubuntu 32-bit. |
| 01:23 | < Consul> | I just wish I knew enough about build scripts to know why a syntax error is being thrown at all. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Autoconf is full of spiders. |
| 01:24 | < Consul> | Well, it's all I have to work with. |
| 01:24 | < Consul> | Miller Puckette decided that that was the build system for him. |
| 01:25 | < Consul> | I don't why I'm bothering with all this, anyway. I have no MIDI input on my soundcard because the Emu1212 driver for ALSA is in a perpetual state of unfinished. |
| 01:26 | < Consul> | The audio output is also only 16-bit instead of 24 (though the input works at 24). |
| 01:26 | < Consul> | Unfortunately, decent sound cards with Linux support are expensive as hell, and other cards with good Linux support sound like crap (I'm looking at you, M-Audio). |
| 01:29 | < Consul> | If Mark Shuttleworth wants to spend his millions on improving Linux, device drivers would be a great start. |
| 01:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sound is definitely one of Linux's weaker aspects. |
| 01:33 | < Consul> | It's weak in Windows, too. They just manage to hide it behind some curtains. |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not just device drivers; there's numerous incompatible sound systems - /dev/dsp, ALSA, OSS, ESD... - most of which do not play nicely with others, and few programs let you choose which one they use. |
| 01:33 | < Consul> | A third-party company finally had to invent a low-latency solution for audio drivers so anything could get done at all. |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least on windows there is *one* API you use for sound, and it mostly works. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | You are unlikely to have a situation where, say, you can't have you music player and your web browser running at the same time with sound because one uses ALSA and the other uses OSS. |
| 01:34 | < Consul> | Two: WDM and ASIO are separate systems. |
| 01:34 | < Consul> | ASIO == the third-party solution. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | That doesn't really invalidate my point; ASIO is a third-party, special-purpose system used by few applications. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whereas the ones I listed are all more or less official, come standard on most distros, and any system will have a more or less even mix of applications using each one. |
| 01:37 | < Consul> | I'm about ready to abandon Linux for music production. |
| 01:37 | < Consul> | I don't know what else I'd rather use, but something that works would be nice. |
| 01:38 | < Consul> | I know I don't want to deal with commercial software DRM. |
| 01:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would in fact probably say that sound is Linux's weakest aspect. |
| 01:39 | < Consul> | But being locked out of expensive software thanks to three reloads of the system is even worse. |
| 01:39 | < Consul> | It all fucking sucks. |
| 01:39 | <@Vornicus> | Sound is really bad in Linux, yes |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's what bittorrent is for. |
| 01:40 | < Consul> | It's either "we treat you like a fucking criminal" or "we treat you like a fucking imbicile." |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | If they're using fucked up DRM/activation schemes, they are clearly deeply opposed to the idea of receiving your money; why give it to them? |
| 01:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now, as for music production software in general, I thought that was part of the reason you are writing this? |
| 01:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | You could always just retarget it. |
| 01:42 | < Consul> | Wow, now PD can't get the sample rate correct. What a great system. |
| 01:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hell, the core library should be completely platform-independent. |
| 01:42 | < Consul> | I just want to make music. |
| 01:42 | < Consul> | That's always only been my goal. |
| 01:42 | < Consul> | I just thought maybe I could learn something and improve my geek credentials by writing some of my own stuff. Clearly I was wrong. |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | You get discouraged way too easily. |
| 01:43 | < Consul> | I want to make music. |
| 01:43 | < Consul> | That's all I ever cared about. I got distracted from the real goal. |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | It seems like every other day you are going "I AM A COMPLETE FAILURE AS A PROGRAMMER AND A HUMAN BEING". |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | That said. |
| 01:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you don't actually like programming, but just want to make music, your best bet is to get an existing, high-quality software for that, hit it until the DRM falls off, and use that, if such exists. |
| 01:46 | < Consul> | That leads me to my other issue: money. |
| 01:47 | < Consul> | I may complain a lot, but the fact is, I'm stuck, and like every artist in history who was forced to create with very limited resources, well, I'll do what I can, with what I have. |
| 01:48 | < Consul> | That won't keep me from griping about it, though. |
| 01:48 | < Consul> | Griping is its own art form, anyway. |
| 01:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | True. |
| 01:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | I admit I'm somewhat morally flexible in this sort of thing. Don't have enough money to buy $EXPENSIVE_PROGRAM? Download it. If later on you have enough money to buy it, you should do so, but in the meantime it's not like you're costing them a sale. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | (exception to buy-it-later: companies who are utter cockbags. If your program is full of DRM, I probably won't use it in the first place, but even if I do you can fuck right off.) |
| 02:01 | < Consul> | Linux continues to lack aps I would consider basic and essential to solid music production. There's also nobody doing serious DSP R&D. |
| 02:01 | < Consul> | And I've brought this up time and again, and nobody cares. |
| 02:02 | < Consul> | It's like everyone is happy with the current broken state. |
| 02:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Most of the music guys are probably on OSX. |
| 02:03 | < Consul> | No, I'm talking the Linux Audio Developers group. |
| 02:04 | < Consul> | I think they've become disillusioned and given up, though, a lot like me. |
| 02:04 | < Consul> | ALSA has turned out to be an almost-swindle, with no support or help given to people wanting to make new drivers (I have a first-hand account of that one). |
| 02:05 | < Consul> | Someone I've talked to at length in person about the issue. |
| 02:07 | < Consul> | Thus, the damaging message continues to propagate: "If you don't have the money to buy what the *industry* thinks are the right tools, you don't deserve to make music." |
| 02:08 | < Consul> | Linux leaves people feeling cold and frustrated, so they're stuff paying out thousands for DRM-laden software. |
| 02:08 | < Consul> | s/stuff/stuck |
| 02:10 | < Consul> | Nothing I can do about it, though. Unless I can find myself a coder I can really partner with, there will be no good and usable software synthesis on Linux. |
| 02:10 | < Consul> | And even then, who knows? |
| 02:11 | < Consul> | Fuck it, I'm just making myself depressed now. |
| 02:12 | < Consul> | I'm going for a walk. |
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| 19:33 | < Consul> | Blargh. Now I need to make a new cable for my right monitor. (That would be audio monitor.) |
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| 22:11 | | * Shoukanjuu makes an unholy splice for Consul. |
| 22:14 | < Consul> | He who controls the splice controls the Universe? |
| 22:15 | < Shoukanjuu> | More like he who controls the splice has sound |
| 22:15 | < Shoukanjuu> | But I like yours better |
| 22:18 | < Consul> | I knew this cable was going to die soon anyway. It was the first one I had made. |
| 22:18 | < Consul> | The first one is always trouble. |
| 22:21 | < Shoukanjuu> | Yeah. Every once in a while, it works well and doesn't break for a long time |
| 22:24 | < Shoukanjuu> | Getting lucky, I suppose. I can make stuff work, I just can't make it work great. So I end up buying something instead. This is what I get for not messing around with it more. |
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| 23:44 | <@McMartin> | Hey, TF |
| 23:45 | <@McMartin> | Do you recall offhand the Stuff nfrotz Still Needed? |
| 23:45 | <@McMartin> | Properly parsing the color command line args was one, I know. |
| 23:45 | <@McMartin> | But I thought there were a few more. |
| 23:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nothing I can think of offhand, or at least, nothing I reported |
| 23:46 | <@McMartin> | SourceForge!frotz is stalled. Again. So I'm renewing nfrotz development. |
| 23:46 | <@McMartin> | oh I remember now. |
| 23:46 | <@McMartin> | Unicode input. |
| 23:47 | <@McMartin> | Which will be 47 different kinds of bitch. |
| 23:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 23:47 | <@McMartin> | curses is so very aptly named. |
| 23:48 | | * McMartin is kind of tempted to make a Windows Console version of Frotz too, Just Because He Can, but making the Makefiles not utterly suck is probably more important |
| 23:48 | <@McMartin> | Assuming I can convince the curator to allow gmake extensions. |
| 23:49 | <@McMartin> | If I can't, I may instead write a python script to autogenerate the Makefiles. |
| 23:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | ??~ |
| 23:50 | <@McMartin> | My terminal font is too small to even turn that into strokes. |
| 23:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 23:50 | <@McMartin> | So feel free to translate~ |
| 23:50 | <@McMartin> | Especially since I can't read Japanese in the first place. |
| 23:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | kentou, "good luck", with connotations of "said to one who is going into battle" |
| 23:51 | <@McMartin> | First I have to convince him to actually commit all the changes since the last release ;_; |
| 23:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | ;.; |
| 23:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even more appropriate, then~ |
| 23:51 | <@McMartin> | Which are quite extensive and in dire need of doing |
| 23:51 | <@McMartin> | (These include things like blorb support, which is more or less necessary if you want to play *any game at all released after 2006*) |
| 23:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought nfrotz already had blorb support, and furthermore, that you were its curator |
| 23:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or do you mean "commit the changes made to nfrotz to mainline frotz"? |
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| 23:53 | <@McMartin> | I mean mainline frotz's dev trunk had it, and did it better than nfrotz's. |
| 23:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 23:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | But its release branch didn't. |
| 23:53 | <@McMartin> | Indeed |
| 23:54 | <@McMartin> | nfrotz's approach is to lead the entire program and all supporting graphics and music into the interpreter RAM and then modify some pointers. |
| 23:54 | <@McMartin> | This is, to put it mildly, less than ideal |
| 23:54 | <@McMartin> | s/lead/load/ |
| 23:54 | <@McMartin> | It also then, IIRC, also links in the entirety of the C Babel tools. |
| 23:54 | <@McMartin> | I might have cut out the non-Z stuff but I don't think I did. |
| --- Log closed Mon Sep 22 00:00:41 2008 |