| --- Log opened Sat Aug 16 00:00:39 2008 |
| 00:06 | | AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@Nightstar-29087.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: I like my random encounters like I like my tea and my women - deadly.] |
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| 08:05 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| 09:09 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 11:56 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by ChanServ |
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| 13:12 | | * TheWatcher stabstabstab subversion |
| 13:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Why it can't sat svn:keywords on files by default I don't know |
| 13:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Or set it, even. |
| 13:31 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-2037.A163.cust.bahnhof.se] has joined #Code |
| 13:31 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 14:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because SVN is terrible~ |
| 14:02 | <@TheWatcher> | :P |
| 14:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | That said, what's an svn:keywords? |
| 14:04 | <@TheWatcher> | It's a property that makes svn do keyword substitution ($Id$, $Rev$, $Date$, etc) |
| 14:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 14:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hang on, I know I left my flamethrower around here somewhere. |
| 14:06 | | * jerith offers a vat of napalm. |
| 14:07 | <@TheWatcher> | (without it you need to issue `svn info <target>` for each file you want to obtain that sort of thing for. Which I suppose is fine if you are using an IDE that talks subversion, or using a subversion wrapper, but it's a pain if you want at-a-glance info from the files.) |
| 14:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...wow. This win98 torrent is from the days when segments were conventionally made small enough to fit on a floppy. |
| 14:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Why're you grabbing win98? |
| 14:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | To run it in a VM for purposes of playing Wing Commander. |
| 14:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Really I should have done this years ago, but I never thought of it until McM suggested it last night. |
| 14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Aaah |
| 14:11 | <@jerith> | Is WC not a DOS game? |
| 14:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, but my install floppies are, unsurprisingly, no longer usable. |
| 14:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, the windows version (the WC: Kilrathi Saga rerelease of the first three games) has much better music. |
| 14:17 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 14:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Augh wtf |
| 14:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | win98 installs a web server by default? |
| 14:19 | <@jerith> | win98 /has a webserver/!? |
| 14:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | So the installer claims. |
| 14:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's one of the optional components, installed by default. "Lets you host a website directly from your desktop!" |
| 14:23 | < Consul> | I've had people ask me why they can't host their e-commerce site like that. |
| 14:23 | < Consul> | There's another group that wonders whether Amazon.com is hosted at GoDaddy or iPowerWeb. |
| 14:24 | < Consul> | I've always wondered why so many of the IT pros I knew were bald. |
| 14:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, wonder no molre |
| 14:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. I could totally use this VM for playing Ultima Underworld and whatnot as well. |
| 14:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not sure how well it'll handle pure DOS, though |
| 14:29 | < Consul> | The latest is trying to import 750 or so megs of info into a MySQL database table, something it should be able to handle on a dedicated server. |
| 14:29 | < Consul> | Five hours later, they had to cancel the import. |
| 14:30 | < Consul> | Turns out that table has over 40 indexes on it. |
| 14:32 | | * ToxicFrog throttles win98 |
| 15:12 | | * ToxicFrog starts throttling virtualbox as well |
| 15:49 | | Derakon [~Derakon@Nightstar-25129.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: And poof! I am gone.] |
| 16:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | It installs! |
| 16:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | FINALLY |
| 16:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | After I disabled EVERY PERIPHERAL PIECE OF HARDWARE in the VM! |
| 17:10 | <@jerith> | Why does a VM have peripheral devices? |
| 17:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Virtual sound card, USB controller, network card, etc |
| 17:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, it won't boot if Pacifica support is enabled. |
| 17:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which makes me sad, because turning it off is a very noticeable performance hit. |
| 17:16 | <@jerith> | :-( |
| 17:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | SB16 installed and working! |
| 17:29 | | Netsplit DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net <-> Blargh.CA.US.Nightstar.Net quits: @Kazriko |
| 17:29 | | Netsplit over, joins: Kazriko |
| 17:29 | | mode/#code [+o Kazriko] by ChanServ |
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| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: so, here's how the VirtualBox experiments went |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | First of all, I'd forgotten how awful win98 is. |
| 18:52 | <@McMartin> | Is Pacifica one of the hardware-virtualization-support things? |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. AMD-V. |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for how it works with VB itself...if Pacifica is enabled, it installs fine but does not boot. |
| 18:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | If it's disabled, it installs very slowly, boots very slowly, and is basically unusable for anything but simple file management. And even that is slow. |
| 18:53 | <@McMartin> | Yesh, VBox has only incomplete support for those right now |
| 18:53 | <@McMartin> | That's odd. |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | Generally, the claim was (and my experience matched, albeit on Intel) that without the support it went quite fast. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, getting video working properly (ie, more than 16 colors) is like pulling teeth. |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | Hm. |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | So, I haven't tested this on an AMD box |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | Mind throwing Knoppix at it? |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Have you tested it with win98? |
| 18:54 | <@McMartin> | No; I don't have Win98. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because the word on the forums is that win9x support is a side effect, not something they actively support, and thus all the optimizations are for modern OSes |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's also no Guest Support for win9x, at all. |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is part of why getting display etc working properly is such a pain: no VB-supplied drivers for the virtual hardware. |
| 18:55 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, but I can run Knoppix and Ubuntu at full speed without turning Guest Support on at all - setting the OS to "unknown". |
| 18:56 | <@McMartin> | I've been meaning to try FreeDOS/4DOS/7DOS/etc. on it to see how it runs Tyrian, actually. |
| 18:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Well, I'll see if I have a suitable liveCD handy |
| 18:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | I note that it also complains that video performance in bit depths other than 32 will not be optimal |
| 18:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | And WC1 and 2 use, what, 8-bit colour? |
| 18:57 | <@McMartin> | Well |
| 18:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | (oh yeah, and fullscreen support is not actually usable as such. It gives me 320x240 in the center of the screen surrounded by black.) |
| 18:57 | <@McMartin> | (That's 'cause it's using SDL as a backend. ;_;) |
| 18:58 | <@McMartin> | Though I believe making that work better is vaguely on their list |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | (so even if the performance issues were fixed it wouldn't actually be playable) |
| 18:58 | <@McMartin> | 2.0 is scheduled for release in like two weeks. |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | I may try again when that happens, then |
| 18:58 | | * McMartin has only been using the raw SDL backend, too, which he had to hack on a bit to make it usable |
| 18:58 | <@McMartin> | Because the "escape from input capture" key is right-control, which doesn't exist on my MBP |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's configurable, at least in the windows version - file->preferences->input |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | What video backend it uses isn't, though. |
| 18:59 | <@McMartin> | It's configurable in the Qt version on all versions. |
| 18:59 | <@McMartin> | But my workstation doesn't have a commercial Qt license at present. |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 19:00 | <@McMartin> | ... something just struck me. How much does Win9x do in real mode? |
| 19:00 | <@McMartin> | Because it's no better than Dosbox whenever it has to cut to that. |
| 19:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Good question. |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have no idea. |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nor do I know how much of Wing Commander is still real mode. |
| 19:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | I do know it uses DirectX 2. |
| 19:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. End result: VB 1.6 is not suitable for win98 in general, nor for wing commander in specific; I will try again when 2.0 is released. |
| 19:06 | <@McMartin> | Noted |
| 19:07 | <@McMartin> | I'd be obliged if you could also check to see if it's actually that it's not suitable for *AMD*s. |
| 19:07 | <@McMartin> | But yeah, no worries atm |
| 19:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I'm re-downloading puppy and I'll give that a shot in a moment |
| 19:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then I need to run |
| 19:09 | <@McMartin> | (Some of the optimizations even in 1.6 involve running stuff in Ring 3 without context switches and the claim was that on *Intel* chips this resulted in superior performance with the virtualization extensions *off* because there were fewer "real" context switches) |
| 19:09 | <@McMartin> | (That resulted in a lower priority for full HW-V support) |
| 19:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, puppy appears to be running at full speed, although the X.org autoconfigurator totally lost its shit when I tried running it |
| 19:10 | <@McMartin> | Heh. |
| 19:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | xvesa mode is indistinguishable from native, if anything it might be a bit faster because it doesn't have much weird stuff to detect. |
| 19:10 | <@McMartin> | OK, so, not an AMD thing, then. |
| 19:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's with Pacifica enabled. |
| 19:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Let's see how it performs with it turned off. |
| 19:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Without it, it is detectably, but not significantly, slower. |
| 19:12 | | * McMartin nods |
| 19:12 | <@McMartin> | That lends credence to the "Win9x kernel is real-mode" theory, then. |
| 19:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's still pretty much as good as native, it just takes a a few seconds longer to do the autoprobe and whatnot. |
| 19:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 19:13 | <@McMartin> | If that's true, then my initial suggestion of using a VM to run it was fundamentally misguided. |
| 19:13 | <@McMartin> | Most VMs go out of their way to fail to support real-mode~ |
| 19:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Heh. |
| 19:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've heard reports of VMWare running 98 well, but have never tried it. |
| 19:13 | <@McMartin> | It's one of the few that might. |
| 19:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways, I'm off to immerse myself in a chlorine solution. Later. |
| 19:13 | <@McMartin> | Xen won't. Pretty sure Parallels wont. MS Virtual PC might. |
| 19:14 | <@McMartin> | VMWare sticks a shitload of crap all through your kernel, though. |
| 19:14 | <@McMartin> | VBox and Xen are the only ones with truly clean uninstallers. =P |
| 19:38 | | * Kazriko ponders kvm |
| 19:39 | <@Kazriko> | doesn't have much of an uninstaller, since it's now in the official kernel... |
| 21:18 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Hm. Any way to convince Firefox that whenever there is white on a webpage I want to see, say, #DDDDDD instead? |
| 23:19 | | * TheWatcher eyes 'if(search_item != require_write ? write_paths.end() : search_paths.end()) {', winces vaguely |
| 23:21 | <@McMartin> | Huh. It's been a long time since this channel has been Vornless. |
| 23:23 | <@TheWatcher> | I think he's in Michigan ATM |
| 23:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was actually going to suggest he use vbox for gaming. |
| 23:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then I remembered he's on a PPC, which kind of negates the purpose. |
| 23:27 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, that's no good |
| 23:28 | <@McMartin> | Also, 3D support for all VMs sucks more than a little at present. |
| 23:29 | <@McMartin> | And when it doesn't, it tends to talk directly to the graphics cards, bypassing the host OS's drivers |
| 23:29 | <@McMartin> | Which is, you know, kind of asking for it |
| 23:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 23:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was thinking stuff like TA, which works in software entirely |
| 23:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 23:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | I wonder if Dwarf Fortress would work better in v-box running win2k than in wine. |
| 23:36 | <@McMartin> | I bet 2k, being NT-based, has a protected-mode kernel. |
| 23:36 | <@McMartin> | Does DF still require OpenGL though? |
| 23:38 | <@McMartin> | Hah |
| 23:38 | <@McMartin> | "A cute, graceful post-apocalyptic mute gay cowboy romance shooter." |
| 23:38 | <@McMartin> | That's pretty much the most accurate capsule description, too. |
| 23:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Wate |
| 23:42 | <@TheWatcher> | DF required opengl?! |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | TO render its text. |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | As quads. |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | Many, many individual quads. |
| 23:42 | <@TheWatcher> | uh-huh |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | The sysreqs were insanely high at least during the Boatmurdered era. |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | Maybe he's fixed it since. That put me off it at the time, though. |
| 23:43 | <@McMartin> | Kids these days don't learn how to use framebuffers. |
| 23:43 | | * TheWatcher shakes his cane at them |
| --- Log closed Sun Aug 17 00:00:49 2008 |