| --- Log opened Sun Jun 22 00:00:21 2008 |
| 00:08 | | Shoukanjuu [~Shoukanju@Nightstar-27098.101.8.67.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 00:32 | <@Doctor_Nick> | YOU |
| 00:36 | < Shoukanjuu> | yeah, me |
| 00:36 | < Shoukanjuu> | This time with two hours of sleep to keep me running for another 2 da-*passes out* |
| 00:38 | <@Doctor_Nick> | that never works |
| 00:38 | | Shoukanjuu is now known as Shou|x_X |
| 00:38 | < Shou|x_X> | gonna go to best buy tomorrow |
| 00:38 | < Shou|x_X> | So I'm gonna start on my sleeping now |
| 00:52 | | McMartin [~mcmartin@Nightstar-2079.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #code |
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| 00:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | has anyone here used BRL-CAD? |
| 00:55 | < Vornicus> | No. Nor have I used brill cream. |
| 00:56 | <@Doctor_Nick> | who |
| 00:56 | <@McMartin> | o/~ Bryllcreem! A little dab'll do ya o/~ |
| 00:57 | <@McMartin> | Essentially, it was Crisco for your hair. |
| 00:57 | <@McMartin> | Responsible for the many crimes against hairstyle one found in the 30s through the 50s |
| 00:57 | <@Doctor_Nick> | dapper dan |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | Hmm. Who here has done I7 development? |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | Vorn has. |
| 00:58 | <@McMartin> | jerith has but isn't here. |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | Actually, I6 development will do here, too, since it's "I7 is emulating a piece of I6 that should have never been" that I want to complain about, but want calibration |
| 00:59 | < Vornicus> | heh |
| 00:59 | < Vornicus> | I've only done a very few things. |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | OK. So, the I6 phrasing is "Group 3 actions shouldn't exist" |
| 01:00 | <@McMartin> | In I7, this is "I am annoyed by the fact that most predefined actions for developer expansion always fail in the check phase, instead of in the report phase." |
| 01:06 | < Vornicus> | aha |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | Looking at it more closely, the distinction is between "Actions which are checked but then do nothing unless rules intervene" and "Actions which always do nothing unless rules intervene". |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | The latter should, imo, all be the former. |
| 01:11 | < Vornicus> | I never quite understood why the latter existed. |
| 01:11 | <@McMartin> | ANAICT, because they were easier to implement in I6. |
| 01:11 | <@McMartin> | I6 only had "before" and "verb implementation" - the "after" and "report" phases were folded by hand into the implementations. |
| 01:12 | < Vornicus> | aha |
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| 02:14 | <@McMartin> | Hooray, Group 3 actions abolished http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/if/i7ext/All%20Actions%20Checked.i7x |
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| 02:54 | <@Doctor_Nick> | wno |
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| 11:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 12:48 | <@UndeadAnno> | God damn it. God damn it to hell. This problem seems impossible for me to grok. |
| 12:48 | < Shoukanjuu> | Maybe you should stay up for days at a time |
| 12:48 | <@UndeadAnno> | No. |
| 12:49 | < Shoukanjuu> | More often than not, the calirty you gain from the loss of your sanity will help you on your way |
| 12:49 | < Shoukanjuu> | ...calirity? |
| 12:49 | <@UndeadAnno> | Clarity? |
| 12:49 | < Shoukanjuu> | That was what it was supposed to be XD |
| 13:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | See? Sleep messes you up. |
| 13:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | It is the bane of existence :O! |
| 13:03 | <@UndeadAnno> | I would certainly like the bothersome restriction of having to sleep removed, but so long that it impairs my thinking and bodily functions, I will continue to sleep 7 hours per day. |
| 13:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | Maybe that extra hour is all you need? I slept for 6 hours, and I'm still feeling exxhausted |
| 13:05 | <@UndeadAnno> | That's because you bloody skipped two days of sleep. |
| 13:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | I didn't skip two days of sleep, per se |
| 13:05 | <@UndeadAnno> | One undertimed session of sleep won't help you there. |
| 13:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | It's more like two days of sleep skipped me |
| 13:05 | <@UndeadAnno> | I am too old to pull all-nighters. |
| 13:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | Well, you can't be that old |
| 13:08 | <@UndeadAnno> | I'm 22 in four days. |
| 13:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | I turned 19 uh |
| 13:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | ...2 days ago? |
| 13:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | What day is it |
| 13:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | Sunday...yeeah, t wo days ago |
| 13:08 | <@UndeadAnno> | !day |
| 13:08 | < DiceBot> | It is Monday today. |
| 13:08 | <@UndeadAnno> | !date |
| 13:08 | < DiceBot> | It's 00:13:33, 23 June 2008 now. It's also Monday. |
| 13:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | Right, well, it's 8am on sunday HERE >_> |
| 13:09 | <@UndeadAnno> | The point is, however, that I'm old enough to have figured out that all-nighters are a bad idea. |
| 13:09 | < Shoukanjuu> | You figured that out a long time ago |
| 13:09 | < Shoukanjuu> | But you never acted on it. O: |
| 13:10 | <@UndeadAnno> | I did not. Stop godmodding. |
| 13:11 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oh, well. |
| 13:11 | < Shoukanjuu> | I'm n ot godmodding, I'm being an ass. There's a difference. Not much, but it's there. At least metaphysically >_> |
| 13:12 | <@UndeadAnno> | You're being a sleep-deprived godmodding ass. Go to sleep. |
| 13:13 | < Shoukanjuu> | Can't guarantee that I'll go to sleep, but I will stop annoying you |
| 14:22 | | ErikMesoy [~ejm@Nightstar-876.bb.online.no] has joined #code |
| 14:23 | < ErikMesoy> | My java compiler is telling me that I can't ask for "foo.length" because foo is a String and Strings don't have a "length". Am I forgetting the correct synonym or what? |
| 14:24 | <@UndeadAnno> | Whut. |
| 14:24 | <@UndeadAnno> | What kind of Java are you using? |
| 14:24 | <@UndeadAnno> | My Java has String lengths. |
| 14:24 | < ErikMesoy> | Whichever one comes with Ubuntu. It's never done this before. |
| 14:25 | < ErikMesoy> | This may be simply because I never asked for String lengths, though. |
| 14:25 | <@UndeadAnno> | Check its documentation, specifically the method summary for String. |
| 14:28 | < ErikMesoy> | WTF. Checking the documentation seems to reveal that the Java compiler on this thing is a translation frontend for a C/C++ compiler. |
| 14:28 | <@UndeadAnno> | Download a REAL Java. |
| 14:29 | < Shoukanjuu> | Hehe |
| 14:29 | < ErikMesoy> | Sounds like a good idea. |
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| 17:05 | <@UndeadAnno> | Finally. I think I've arrived at the solution. |
| 17:06 | <@UndeadAnno> | Instead of having it iterate over process beginnings, it iterates over every discrete moment, thus obviating the need for finding out how to work in two separate processes. |
| 17:11 | <@UndeadAnno> | Yes! |
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| 17:11 | <@UndeadAnno> | A paper-simulation proves the solution to be valid. |
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| 18:01 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 21:14 | | * UndeadAnno WTFs at the results an apparently correct code brings up. |
| 21:15 | < Vornicus> | ?? |
| 21:15 | <@UndeadAnno> | I'm continuing to revise for a class, doing all the exercises all over again. |
| 21:15 | <@UndeadAnno> | Ah, I know. I've forgotten to state that the bastards can't go out of bounds. |
| 21:19 | | * UndeadAnno pwns that problem. |
| 21:21 | <@UndeadAnno> | Would anyone here know what a 'poker problem' or suchlike be? Given that we're supposed to be solving these things with constraint programming, I can only infer that it's a 'difficult problem'. |
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| 21:24 | < Vornicus> | I never heard of it. |
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| 21:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Off the top of my head I'd guess "find the highest scoring subset of cards in a poker hand", but it's not a term I've ever heard before. |
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| 22:22 | <@McMartin> | My guess is that it has something to do with bidding. |
| 22:27 | <@Serah> | My gues is that it has something to do with pudding. |
| 23:29 | <@Vornicus> | mmm, pudding. |
| 23:31 | | * McMartin headdesks at the Inform Cabal. |
| 23:32 | <@McMartin> | Well, OK, now that we've sorted *that* one out, I rather suspect cross-platform Windows/Linux SVN support will be a lot easier now. |
| 23:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 23:32 | <@McMartin> | Not that it was tough to begin with, but. |
| 23:32 | <@McMartin> | The Windows IDE developer has been breaking the line breaks based on two misconceptions |
| 23:32 | <@McMartin> | (a) Whatever the Mac IDE does should control |
| 23:33 | <@McMartin> | (b) Macs still use \r as their line break |
| 23:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oops. |
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| 23:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | (what do they use now?) |
| 23:34 | <@McMartin> | (\n, just like all other BSD-based systems) |
| 23:35 | <@McMartin> | And, as a result, since \r is not native to either platform, there was actually no setting of svn:eol-style you could use that would let you share across Windows and Mac. |
| 23:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 23:35 | <@McMartin> | As it happens, some piece of ugliness in the way Mac does mass directory writes means you can't easily integrate SVN into the Mac IDE anyway, but that's a separate point. |
| 23:35 | <@McMartin> | I don't know enough about the API to be clear on how it does it or what it does |
| 23:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Does it have a generic mechanism now for integrating version control, or is it SVN specific? |
| 23:35 | <@McMartin> | But SVN metadata is blown away every time you modify the source. |
| 23:36 | <@McMartin> | The idea here was that you'd set up an SVN repository that, when checked out, the IDE reads as a project. |
| 23:36 | | * ToxicFrog is kind of conflicted on line endings. On the one hand, \n is nice and easy to work with. On the other hand, \r\n is the strictly correct form. |
| 23:36 | <@McMartin> | If you're *just* on Windows or *just* on Linux, this actually works great. |
| 23:36 | <@McMartin> | TortoiseSVN modifies explorer so you can actually do a checkout or an update right from the "Open a previous project..." window. |
| 23:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | How is this different from just checking your project into SVN and using the working copy? |
| 23:37 | <@McMartin> | Because you can't do that now. |
| 23:37 | <@McMartin> | Not if you're working on different OSes. |
| 23:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 23:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | So it's not actually svn integration per se. |
| 23:37 | <@McMartin> | Because SVN will say "OH SHITS TEH LINE ENDINGZ0RZ" and die on at least one of them |
| 23:37 | <@McMartin> | And SVN will say *ded* on the Mac for reasons I don't understand. |
| 23:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought that features for controlling SVN from inside the I7 IDE were going on here, not just making it play nice with external SVN usage |
| 23:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now it makes sense. |
| 23:38 | <@McMartin> | There was brief talk of the former, and a quick correction that what was meant was the latter. |
| 23:39 | <@McMartin> | (There's also a batch of suggestions that seem to boil down to "just do what TADS 3 does", but since they're places where TADS 3 gets it right, this isn't really an issue) |
| 23:39 | <@McMartin> | And a few other things that seem intended to turn I7 into ADRIFT done right~ |
| 23:40 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:41 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | (A new "consultation document" is being prepared. People who - I think - submitted extensions or published sizable works in I7 over its history got given preview copies to comment on before it hits "press" |
| 23:42 | <@McMartin> | ) |
| 23:47 | < Vornicus> | So are you one of the people who got a preview copy? |
| 23:51 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, I mentioned earlier "Gee, I guess I'm part of that Cabal the ranters froth about now" |
| 23:51 | <@Kazriko> | heh |
| 23:52 | <@McMartin> | But I suspect it's due either to the volume of bug reports, or the five or six extensions I submitted, or WS being one of the earliest full-length I7 works published by someone not actively developing the system |
| 23:53 | <@McMartin> | And I have a sinking suspicion part of it was also to have sections where it says things like "We think this is nice, but that it is probably handlable via extension" to get us to *write* said extensions~ |
| 23:53 | < Vornicus> | heh |
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| 23:54 | <@McMartin> | Indeed, at least two extensions have been written already based on the discussion |
| 23:54 | < Vornicus> | of course. |
| 23:54 | <@McMartin> | But yeah, the "just do what TADS does" claims basically all involve parser disambiguation. |
| 23:55 | < Vornicus> | Parser disambiguation is Good. |
| 23:55 | <@Kazriko> | I'd try that with Ennesbot, but i'm the only one using it |
| 23:55 | <@McMartin> | One of the requests was for "does the player mean" rules to have the option "it is completely impossible." |
| 23:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | How does that differ from "no"? |
| 23:55 | <@McMartin> | That's not an option. |
| 23:55 | <@McMartin> | The lowest value at present is "it is very unlikely." |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 23:56 | <@McMartin> | Which will still default to it if it's around. |
| 23:57 | <@McMartin> | This spurred the additional suggestion from the people familiar with TADS to say "As long as you're doing that, you should also add 'it is not obvious', because it turns out to be necessary once you start making things heavily automated." |
| 23:57 | < Vornicus> | "take key: You don't have a big enough checking account to buy the island. Sorry." |
| 23:57 | <@McMartin> | That's not really the issue. |
| 23:57 | <@McMartin> | What you don't want is |
| 23:57 | < Vornicus> | :P |
| 23:57 | <@McMartin> | >E |
| 23:57 | <@McMartin> | (first unlocking the door) |
| 23:57 | <@McMartin> | (with the sunglasses) |
| 23:57 | < Vornicus> | heeee |
| 23:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pfft |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | Wearing the sunglasses, you find the door is an illusion! Yay! Puzzle solved! |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | <Designer> DAMMIT |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | "not obvious" is for "the player can mean this, but the parser will never automatically select it as a disambiguation" |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | For the "take key" example you give, that's exactly the sort of place to use "it is very unlikely." |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | completely impossible is for: |
| 23:58 | <@McMartin> | > DRINK |
| 23:59 | <@McMartin> | (the statue of Ponce deLeon) |
| 23:59 | <@McMartin> | You can't drink that. |
| 23:59 | < Vornicus> | pfff |
| --- Log closed Mon Jun 23 00:00:00 2008 |