| --- Log opened Thu May 01 00:00:46 2008 |
| 00:50 | | Roscoe [~glorfinst@69.229.199.ns-22118] has joined #code |
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| 06:19 | | darksun [~ds@122.167.177.ns-13275] has joined #code |
| 06:25 | < darksun> | hello all |
| 06:26 | < Shoukanjuu> | Morning |
| 06:26 | < darksun> | hi shoukanjuu |
| 06:27 | <@McMartin> | Thus breaking 13 hours of silence |
| 06:27 | < Shoukanjuu> | Always nice |
| 06:28 | < Shoukanjuu> | I wonder if the guitar hero peripheral for the wii is recognized as a classic controller |
| 06:28 | < Shoukanjuu> | I could make my own peripheral :O |
| 06:30 | < Shoukanjuu> | Next on When Cutting Plastic to Make Your Own Ikaruga Model: we'll see eexactly how bad Shou messed up his dimensions and what became of it! |
| 06:30 | | * Shoukanjuu needs to learn to buy things from people who know what they're doing instead of screwing around with things he can't |
| 06:33 | <@Vornicus> | THat's an important skill. |
| 06:34 | < Shoukanjuu> | It was fun while it lasted, though |
| 06:34 | < Shoukanjuu> | I want to buy one of the models, but I couldn't find them anywhere, at least, not where I can understand the moonspeak |
| 06:35 | <@Vornicus> | CRAZY MOON LANGUAGE |
| 06:37 | < Shoukanjuu> | I mean seriously. |
| 06:37 | < Shoukanjuu> | Have you played Ikaruga? ALL of Treasures' games are works of art |
| 06:37 | < Shoukanjuu> | Especially Ikaruga :/ |
| 06:37 | <@McMartin> | You sprinkle the kitten with the iron filings, and then tie the buttered toast to its back, butter side up. |
| 06:37 | <@McMartin> | Then you drop it into the reaction chamber of the dynamo laser. The conflicting forces of kitten and toast cause it to spin in the chamber, providing your laser cannon with unlimited power. |
| 06:37 | <@McMartin> | That said, Ikaruga really didn't do it for me. |
| 06:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | ...Chef Brian aside, I need an Ikaruga model D: |
| 06:38 | <@McMartin> | I enjoyed G5 quite a bit more. |
| 06:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | We've had this conversation before. :P |
| 06:38 | <@McMartin> | Which was also Treaasure |
| 06:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | No PS2 ;_; |
| 06:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | Wait |
| 06:38 | <@McMartin> | And, uh, We Don't Talk About Stretch Panic. |
| 06:38 | < Shoukanjuu> | There's something to be said when G5 sparked four different things in my head ending with Gradius 5 |
| 06:39 | <@McMartin> | Gradius 5 was the intended reference, though. |
| 06:39 | < Shoukanjuu> | That's what I thought |
| 06:39 | < Shoukanjuu> | It couldn't have to do with medical supplies, Apple computers, or some trashy laser mouse |
| 06:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | Not in that particular order |
| 06:40 | | * McMartin goes back to tuning Blorple's performance. |
| 06:47 | < Shoukanjuu> | hobbyfan has something where apparently you have to request it...there's like 7 requests needed to put them in production ;_; |
| 06:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ikaruga was both shiny and entertaining until the horrible rape occurred. |
| 06:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sadly, that was about five minutes into the game. |
| 06:51 | <@McMartin> | Nah, it's at least not until level 3 |
| 06:51 | <@McMartin> | "There is no 'wall' polarity, sadly." |
| 06:51 | < Shoukanjuu> | S++. |
| 06:51 | < Shoukanjuu> | Chapter 4 took me the longest... |
| 06:51 | < Shoukanjuu> | Chapter 4 is horrible rape. |
| 06:52 | < Shoukanjuu> | In hard mode? |
| 06:52 | <@McMartin> | Chapter 4 was the point where I stopped being amused. |
| 06:52 | < Shoukanjuu> | In any mode |
| 06:52 | <@McMartin> | Which is too bad, because Chapter 5 is awesome. |
| 06:52 | < Shoukanjuu> | Hell yeah :3 |
| 06:52 | <@McMartin> | That said |
| 06:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | For me it was 5 minutes, but I'm not very good at shmups. |
| 06:52 | < Shoukanjuu> | You made it through a sixth of the game. |
| 06:53 | < Shoukanjuu> | Good job. |
| 06:53 | <@McMartin> | The Japanese are no longer allowed to use the word "Metempsychosis." It either doesn't mean what they think it means, or it *does* and they need to mean something else. |
| 06:53 | < Shoukanjuu> | Better than a lot of people, I assure you. |
| 06:53 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oh? |
| 06:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | My sister and I spent a while handing the controller back and forth and not getting past the second stage before eventually deciding to play Einhander instead. |
| 06:53 | <@McMartin> | "Chapter 5: In which our heroes are sped into the afterlife." |
| 06:53 | <@McMartin> | Granted, this is accurate |
| 06:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Where I can at least make it to stage 4~ |
| 06:54 | <@Vornicus> | mmm, Einhander. |
| 06:54 | < Shoukanjuu> | I was under the impression that metempsychosis was the belief of reincarnating into an animal or anythiong else, realluy |
| 06:54 | | darksun [~ds@122.167.177.ns-13275] has left #code [] |
| 06:54 | <@McMartin> | But I would humbly suggest that since this also involves becoming an unforgettable legend, perhaps "apotheosis" might be more appropriate. |
| 06:54 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oooh. |
| 06:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Einhander is awesome and I will beat it someday dammit |
| 06:55 | <@McMartin> | Metempsychosis has a certain aura of "Level 5: In which the player character will fucking die" |
| 06:55 | < Shoukanjuu> | BattleToads is awesome and I wiull beat it someday dammit |
| 06:55 | <@McMartin> | BattleToads is buggy |
| 06:55 | <@McMartin> | I beat Einhaender |
| 06:55 | | * Vornicus determines that Shou is On Drugs. |
| 06:55 | <@McMartin> | The last level is so worth it |
| 06:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Einhander is not nearly as brokenly sadistic as BattleToads. |
| 06:55 | <@Vornicus> | And, yes. |
| 06:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's merely very difficult. |
| 06:55 | <@Vornicus> | I too will beat it someday dammit |
| 06:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | This difficulty is exacerbated by the lack of level select, so each time stage 4 rapes me I have to play through the first three again. |
| 06:56 | < Shoukanjuu> | I beat Contra without the Code. |
| 06:56 | <@McMartin> | But have you beaten Contra 4? |
| 06:56 | < Shoukanjuu> | Yes. |
| 06:56 | <@McMartin> | Impressive. I haven't managed to do so except on Easy. |
| 06:56 | < Shoukanjuu> | Where I don't know if the Code works on that or not, I have beaten it, as well. |
| 06:56 | < Shoukanjuu> | I can't beat it on hard. |
| 06:57 | <@McMartin> | Of course, after that I spent all my time on the challenges until they were made of pure bullshit. |
| 06:57 | <@McMartin> | I am thinking specifically of the "don't hurt the hostages" levels where the only weapons available are the cluster bomb and the laser. |
| 06:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 06:57 | <@McMartin> | And with the buggy wall-collision mechanics. =P |
| 06:58 | <@McMartin> | Contra 4's difficulty does not scale well. |
| 06:58 | <@McMartin> | I can beat Easy on one credit. |
| 06:58 | <@McMartin> | I can't beat level 2 on Normal, the next level up. |
| 06:58 | <@McMartin> | There are 10 levels. |
| 06:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | I can't beat level 2 on Hard |
| 06:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | I think it was level 2... |
| 06:58 | < Shoukanjuu> | The Lab and then outlying waterfall |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | Yup. Level 2. The one where you occasionally have unavoidable enemies fall from the ceiling and kill you because it spawned inside a wall instead of inside the tunnel where you'd get warning. |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | "IT MAKES IT HARDER" IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR NOT BETA-TESTING |
| 06:59 | <@McMartin> | Ahem. |
| 07:00 | < Shoukanjuu> | Mario Kart Wii is so delightfully sadistic. |
| 07:00 | <@McMartin> | It is important, note, to draw a distinction between sadism and mere criminal negligence. |
| 07:00 | < Shoukanjuu> | 12 players at once is not merely racing 11 others |
| 07:00 | <@McMartin> | Battletoads is deep into the negligence zone. |
| 07:01 | <@McMartin> | Since one of the levels refuses controller input. =P |
| 07:01 | < Shoukanjuu> | It's racing against 11 others, who, at any given time, have 7 among them with Blue shells. |
| 07:01 | < Shoukanjuu> | XD |
| 07:01 | <@McMartin> | That, right there, says "We actually never bothered playing our own fucking game. Please give us money for it anyway!" |
| 07:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | That sounds like it's cheating. |
| 07:01 | < Shoukanjuu> | Cheating? No. |
| 07:02 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 07:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | In a Nintendo game? |
| 07:02 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oh, wait |
| 07:02 | <@McMartin> | IIRC, it works out to "unwinnable except as 2P in single-player mode." |
| 07:02 | <@McMartin> | The TAS should say what it is. |
| 07:03 | < Shoukanjuu> | wtflol XD |
| 07:03 | <@McMartin> | I give you Prince of Persia for "brutally difficult but actually designed that way." |
| 07:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean the abundance of blue shells in Mario Kart Wii. |
| 07:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | I still need to finish PoP. |
| 07:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | I should see if I can get it working on PSP. |
| 07:04 | <@McMartin> | I really, really enjoyed PoP1. |
| 07:04 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Prince of Persia is among the Best Games. |
| 07:04 | <@McMartin> | PoP2, however, was lame. =P |
| 07:04 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Yes. |
| 07:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | Didn't get aroudn to playing them |
| 07:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | I need a Ps2... |
| 07:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | But the 360 has Ikaruga in the Live arcade |
| 07:04 | <@McMartin> | Too many gimmicks, and no distinction between What Kills You and What's Necessary To Solve Puzzles. |
| 07:04 | <@McMartin> | PoP1 and 2 were for, like, the Amiga. |
| 07:04 | < Shoukanjuu> | It's N intendo Hard? |
| 07:05 | <@McMartin> | No, Nintendo Hard that distinction is easy. |
| 07:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | Oh, thooose. |
| 07:05 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 07:05 | <@McMartin> | Everything kills you. |
| 07:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | Not the newer ones :O |
| 07:05 | < Shoukanjuu> | XD |
| 07:05 | <@McMartin> | The newer ones are excellent as well. |
| 07:05 | <@McMartin> | Well, 1 and 3. |
| 07:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | The newer ones are PoP 4 through 6 |
| 07:05 | <@McMartin> | But mostly 1. |
| 07:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of those, 4 and 6 are excellent. |
| 07:05 | <@McMartin> | 6 is better designed, but 4 is fundamentally the better game overall. |
| 07:06 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | You have 60 minutes, 12 levels of mazes and fighting, and no mercy. |
| 07:06 | <@McMartin> | There is mercy! |
| 07:06 | <@McMartin> | Infinite lives! |
| 07:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | Sounds lieke my mother's house! |
| 07:06 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Well, okay. |
| 07:06 | < Shoukanjuu> | Zing! |
| 07:06 | <@McMartin> | Shou, I am totally never visiting for tea. |
| 07:06 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | ...yeah. |
| 07:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ooo. There's an SNES version. |
| 07:06 | <@McMartin> | It's a Bad Port |
| 07:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | You get 2 hours, but there's 20 levels. |
| 07:06 | <@McMartin> | They added boss fights. |
| 07:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh ;.; |
| 07:07 | <@McMartin> | It utterly violates the spirit. |
| 07:07 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | The best version, so far as I am aware, is the Mac version. |
| 07:07 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 07:07 | <@McMartin> | This is also the one that appears as the secret level in 4. |
| 07:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | How does the Sega Master System port compare? |
| 07:07 | <@McMartin> | It's probably pretty close to the original Apple ][ version. |
| 07:08 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | (the original game has, um, essentially 4 boss fights - the Skeleton, the Fat Man, the Mirror, and the Vizier) |
| 07:08 | <@McMartin> | (All of which are beatable without having taken the sword on level 1.) |
| 07:09 | <@McMartin> | (I don't consider any of them truly bossfights.) |
| 07:09 | <@McMartin> | (The SNES one has them in the R-Type sense) |
| 07:09 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | (...I think I need to try that, eventually. How the crap are you supposed to do that, anyway?) |
| 07:09 | < Shoukanjuu> | I realize how young I am, now. |
| 07:09 | <@McMartin> | (Check GameFAQs) |
| 07:09 | <@McMartin> | (Look for the one the describes "RUNTHROUGH") |
| 07:10 | <@McMartin> | (As opposed to "walkthrough", lol) |
| 07:10 | <@McMartin> | (Generally you trick people into traps or into getting crushed by bricks) |
| 07:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | (so it's pacifist in the Nethack sense rather than the Lytha sense) |
| 07:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. The Sega MegaCD version looks like my best bet for portable PoP, since it's apparently a straight port of the Mac version. |
| 07:12 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | (yeah, you can't win without killing Jafar at least, and I don't think it's possible to get past the Fat Man without killing him.) |
| 07:12 | <@McMartin> | (Is he the level 1 guard?) |
| 07:13 | <@McMartin> | (You can vault over him, IIRC) |
| 07:13 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | No, The Fat Man is in, iirc, 5? |
| 07:13 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | He's big and fat, and if you get close, he bounces you away. |
| 07:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | I actually have the Mac version kicking around somewhere, but it's only playable on Durandal. |
| 07:14 | <@McMartin> | Hm. I vaguely remember that |
| 07:14 | <@McMartin> | But I recall 5 and/or 6 being the really short stage. |
| 07:14 | <@McMartin> | One being the NO YUO one where either the Mirror or the Fat Man dumps you back in the dungeon |
| 07:14 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | THe Mirror. |
| 07:15 | <@McMartin> | But I remember rationing my time and suddenly having an extra ten minutes. |
| 07:15 | <@McMartin> | ("Must beat each stage in 5 minutes or less!") |
| 07:15 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | First you fight the Fat Man, and then you get to the end and the Mirror forces you to drop into the pit. |
| 07:15 | <@McMartin> | (30 seconds later...) |
| 07:15 | <@McMartin> | Man, the Mirror was such a great way to get motivation. |
| 07:15 | <@McMartin> | THAT WAS MY POWERUP, RARGH |
| 07:16 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Anyway, slep. |
| 07:16 | <@McMartin> | Very yes. |
| 07:16 | < Shoukanjuu> | Night xD |
| 07:17 | <@McMartin> | Blorple is at code freeze for 0.4 |
| 07:17 | <@McMartin> | More or less |
| 07:17 | <@McMartin> | Except for text changes like "Now I am version 0.4" |
| 07:17 | | * McMartin changes that when he updates the installers. |
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| 15:01 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 15:20 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | Hey, um |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | What's wrong with this html? |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | <table> |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | <tr bgcolor="#eeeeff"> |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | <td> </td><td> </td><td colspan="3" align="center"> Saves </td><td> </td> |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | </tr> |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | </table> |
| 15:59 | <@C_tiger> | Reiver, colspan = 3 needs columns on other rows, I think. |
| 15:59 | <@Reiver> | Aha? |
| 15:59 | <@Reiver> | And what does that mean? |
| 15:59 | | * Reiver apologises, but is horribly rusty at HTML tables. |
| 16:01 | <@Reiver> | oh, right |
| 16:01 | <@Reiver> | Well this is the code as full |
| 16:01 | <@Reiver> | http://pastebin.com/d17bff29d |
| 16:02 | <@C_tiger> | You specify 7 virtual columns in the Saves row but only 6 in every other row. |
| 16:02 | <@Reiver> | ...ah-hah |
| 16:03 | <@Reiver> | So I need to ditch a column? |
| 16:03 | <@C_tiger> | Actually maybe not, I can't count... |
| 16:03 | <@C_tiger> | sorry. |
| 16:03 | <@Reiver> | heh, np |
| 16:03 | <@Reiver> | ...weirdass, wtf? |
| 16:03 | <@C_tiger> | Let me actually test the code. |
| 16:03 | <@Reiver> | I segregated the top of the table (that bit above) from the rest of it |
| 16:04 | <@Reiver> | The rest of it worked fine. I elected to just go with that. |
| 16:04 | <@Reiver> | ...If I delete the top table fragment, the bottom code breaks? WTF? |
| 16:05 | <@C_tiger> | actually your table works fine for me. |
| 16:05 | <@Reiver> | I'm starting to wonder if it isn't a bug in LJ. |
| 16:05 | <@Reiver> | (Yeah, I'm trying to post a table to LJ. It's the first of various other places, so.) |
| 16:06 | <@C_tiger> | I can't say I've tried LJ. |
| 16:06 | <@Reiver> | Idly: Is there any way to make a single full row bolded? |
| 16:06 | <@Reiver> | Without <b></b> in every cell? >.> |
| 16:07 | <@C_tiger> | You might be able to stick the <b> after the <tr> and the </b> before the </tr> |
| 16:07 | <@C_tiger> | really you should be using styles |
| 16:07 | <@C_tiger> | but I don't know if LJ supports them. |
| 16:09 | <@C_tiger> | <tr style="font-weight: bold"> |
| 16:10 | <@C_tiger> | Also, anyone with white-on-black as their default colors is going to hate you. |
| 16:10 | <@Reiver> | Refresh? |
| 16:11 | <@Reiver> | And, uh |
| 16:11 | <@Reiver> | /I/ have white-on-black. >.> |
| 16:11 | <@Reiver> | Though I may darken that background color on second thought~ |
| 16:12 | <@C_tiger> | then why are you specifying light grey for one of your background colors? |
| 16:13 | <@Reiver> | Because it looked nice at the time. |
| 16:13 | <@Reiver> | Then I realised that maybe it didn't. >.> |
| 16:14 | <@C_tiger> | My rule is that if you're speccing any background color to also specify the text color. |
| 16:14 | <@C_tiger> | so make the whole table black on white. |
| 16:18 | | * Reiver nod. |
| 16:18 | <@Reiver> | ...oh I see what I did there |
| 16:18 | | * Reiver fixes it, is happy again. Wonders vaugely if it's possible to tell LJ to use the users Style Colours for the background; suspects that would make it unreadable anyway. |
| 16:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think that it will do so if you simply don't specify a background color at all. |
| 16:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is to say, it will use both the user's style and text colors, so it's a non-issue. |
| 16:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Don't override colors unless you know you have to. |
| 16:20 | <@Reiver> | Hrm. Then I guess I need to find a better way of delineating the background. |
| 16:21 | | * Reiver had been hoping for the Alternating Background Row Colours effect. |
| 16:27 | <@Reiver> | ...is there any easy way to make a table have a single pixel wide border? |
| 16:27 | <@Reiver> | Instead of that weirdass padding thing it insists on doing? |
| 16:29 | | * Reiver would much prefer to be using CSS, here, but the medium he will be posting this to, he's lucky it supports HTML. ¬¬ |
| 16:30 | <@McMartin> | New version of I7 out on the downloads page |
| 16:44 | <@McMartin> | Last and thoroughly least, but in response to a genuine bug report form, code added to protect NI from the "Year 2038" bug. This is the point at which 32-bit integer representations of time in non-leap-seconds since January 1 1970 begin to overflow. NI itself handles time correctly, but it uses C library calls on all its platforms which follow Unix conventions |
| 16:44 | <@McMartin> | (includingon Windows), which means they tbehave incorrectly on computers whose system clock is set to later than 2038. Work progresses but there is as yet no agreed solution to the Year 2038 bug. When there is, we will recompile NI against the improved C libraries then existing. In the mean time, users are advised to avoid time travel beyond 18 January 2038. |
| 16:46 | <@jerith> | Win. |
| 16:50 | | Vornicus-Latens [~vorn@Admin.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 16:53 | <+Molgorn> | Idly, is there a better solution to the knapsack/thief problem than working out value per unit weight and then running a greedy algorithm over it? |
| 16:55 | <@Reiver> | ...heh |
| 16:55 | <@Reiver> | We just did that in alograthms yesterday |
| 16:55 | <@Reiver> | Whether or not you want to get into dynamic programming or not is another matter entirely~ |
| 16:57 | < Vornicus-Latens> | mmmm, greedy algorithm |
| 16:58 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 17:27 | <@McMartin> | Mol: What do you mean by "better"? |
| 17:27 | <@McMartin> | "More practical" or "Lets you pack in more stuff"? |
| 17:29 | <+Molgorn> | The latter |
| 17:29 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 17:29 | <@McMartin> | You can exhaustively try all possible orderings, using exponential time. |
| 17:30 | <@McMartin> | Bin-Packing is one of the This Shouldn't Be That Hard But It Is problems like Traveling Salesman. |
| 17:31 | <@Reiver> | Dynamic programming lets you reduce that exponential time, doesn't it? |
| 17:31 | <@McMartin> | No. |
| 17:31 | <@Reiver> | Or does it just make the exponential more efficient? |
| 17:31 | <@McMartin> | The latter. |
| 17:31 | <@McMartin> | It lets you say "Oh, I already checked this." |
| 17:31 | | * Reiver was staring blankly at an overexcited lecturer going on about order-1 lookups into Arrays making things more efficient, etc. |
| 17:31 | <@McMartin> | Well, it does. |
| 17:32 | <@McMartin> | Because otherwise it's *even worse* |
| 17:32 | <@Reiver> | Ah-hah |
| 17:32 | <@McMartin> | IIRC, Dynamic lets you drop a factor of n^2. |
| 17:32 | <@McMartin> | 2^n / n^2 is still 2^n. |
| 17:32 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 17:32 | <@Reiver> | But a hell of a lot nicer for small values~ |
| 17:32 | <@Reiver> | ('small') |
| 17:32 | <@Reiver> | Thank you. In two hours, he didn't manage to get that point across right. >.> |
| 17:33 | <@Reiver> | (Though frankly he is... ehhh, how to put it. He is possibly one of the best lecturers in the university.) |
| 17:33 | <@Reiver> | (But he's one of their crappiest teachers.) |
| 17:34 | <@Reiver> | He knows the stuff he teaches to the point where he walks into the classroom with nothing but a whiteboard marker and can talk for two hours, and stop only because the clock told him to. The downside to this, of course, is that he walks into a lecture theatre with nothing but a whiteboard marker, and...~ |
| 17:34 | <@Reiver> | AKA: Trying to keep up with him is a rather frantic affair. |
| 17:35 | | * Reiver tends to struggle at this style of teaching, given his memory impairment issues. |
| 17:36 | <@Reiver> | And my notetakers have no idea what bits they need to be taking down, because he leaps from topic to topic and it's hard to tell what's anecdote vs crucial, and impossible to write the whole lot down verbatim. |
| 17:36 | <@Reiver> | So, uh, yeah. *shrug* |
| 17:36 | <@Reiver> | And on that cheery note, I'm going to bed |
| 17:37 | <@Reiver> | Nini~ |
| 17:57 | <@McMartin> | "The Inform project's main goal for 2008 is to publish the entire core Inform code base, beginning in April |
| 17:57 | <@McMartin> | 2008 with public drafts of Appendices A and B, approximately 600pp of material. These use only the simplest |
| 17:58 | <@McMartin> | form of LP where tangling is minimal, and the reader needs no previous experience of the genre." |
| 18:00 | | * Vornicus eyes that |
| 18:01 | <@McMartin> | I7 is written in CWEB. |
| 18:01 | <@McMartin> | Except the CWEB compiler didn't scale to 120kloc |
| 18:01 | <@McMartin> | So he had to modify it. |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | Also, my WIP is smaller on the new one |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | Though I had to destroy most of one of the extensions because it DFW. |
| 18:02 | <@McMartin> | (5T18 almost completely replaces the underlying I6 library) |
| 18:05 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 18:22 | | Vornicus [~vorn@ServicesOp.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
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| 18:24 | | mode/#code [+o Vornicus] by ChanServ |
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| 19:09 | <@McMartin> | So, yes |
| 19:09 | <@McMartin> | Regarding the new I7 |
| 19:09 | <@McMartin> | This is legal: |
| 19:09 | <@McMartin> | Section 2 - New Endgame Options (in place of Section SR2/12 - Final question options in Standard Rules by Graham Nelson) |
| 19:09 | <@McMartin> | This makes me very happy indeed. |
| 19:10 | <@Vornicus> | woot |
| 19:11 | <@McMartin> | Both of those things, actually |
| 19:11 | <@McMartin> | (1) that you can use a table to make new endgame options |
| 19:11 | <@McMartin> | (2) that sections are replacable by name |
| 19:13 | <@McMartin> | Here's how you used to need to do this: http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/if/WS/source_8.html |
| 19:15 | <@McMartin> | Also switch/break/continue, also privately-named objects. |
| 19:15 | <@Vornicus> | ;_; |
| 19:16 | <@McMartin> | On the other hand, as one of the extensions my WIP uses also does this, I'm going to have to rewrite that extension from scratch. |
| 19:18 | <@McMartin> | Also released with 600 pages of annotated versions of the Standard Rules and the I6 underpinnings thereof. |
| 19:23 | <@Vornicus> | of course they release a new one right after I download the old one. |
| 19:24 | <@McMartin> | It's the 15th anniversary of Inform! |
| 19:24 | <@McMartin> | Also the WWW in general. |
| 19:24 | <@Vornicus> | Wooyt |
| 19:27 | <@McMartin> | "As this release was being prepared... in London, Heathrow Terminal 5's state-of-the-art automated baggage system went live... in London, Heathrow Terminal 5's state-of-the-art automated baggage system began to fail, with many cancellations...and in Milan, 15,000 items of lost luggage arrived from Heathrow Terminal 5's state-of-the-art automated baggage system, so that they could be sorted by human beings instead." |
| 19:29 | <+Molgorn> | Yes, it was a fascinating trainwreck |
| 19:29 | <+Molgorn> | Quite a feat given that it's an airport, not a railway terminus |
| 19:30 | <@McMartin> | (The creator of Inform is British) |
| 19:30 | <@McMartin> | Also, quick check: "publicly" or "publically"? |
| 19:30 | <@McMartin> | There are claims this is a US/UK split, but everyone I've asked seems to have seen both. |
| 19:31 | <@McMartin> | (And my first impulse is the nominally UK version =P) |
| 19:31 | <+Molgorn> | I try to avoid either, since they both sit ill on my eye |
| 19:31 | <@McMartin> | That's why I wear glasses. |
| 19:32 | <+Molgorn> | Publically if either, though |
| 19:32 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, likewise |
| 19:32 | <@McMartin> | I just about only use it in the context of "publically available" |
| 19:32 | <+Molgorn> | I could see why it might be a US/UK split, though, given the similar issue with jewellery |
| 19:33 | <@McMartin> | Correct US is "jewelery", imo |
| 19:33 | <+Molgorn> | yes |
| 19:33 | <+Molgorn> | or jewelry, I see a lot |
| 19:34 | <@McMartin> | I claim that one's wrong~ |
| 19:39 | < Shoukanjuu> | jewelry is seen much more than jewelery |
| 19:39 | < Shoukanjuu> | But I was taught that it was the second one |
| 19:39 | | * Vornicus says fuck this noise, takes over the world and mandates Lojban. |
| 19:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | So, it's a misspelling....>_> |
| 19:40 | | * Shoukanjuu transmits signal then |
| 19:48 | | * Molgorn get signal |
| 19:49 | | * Shoukanjuu is him! |
| 19:49 | | * Shoukanjuu inquires on the state of your day |
| 19:49 | | * Shoukanjuu assures that he owns all the bases. |
| 19:55 | | * Shoukanjuu calls attention to the fact that your destruction is nigh. |
| 19:58 | | * jerith assumes his role as Vorn's Minister of Making Things Right and delivers unto Shoukanjuu a warning that Internet Memes are Sacred. |
| 19:59 | | * Shoukanjuu shuts up ._. |
| 19:59 | <@jerith> | Well, that was easy. |
| 20:00 | | * jerith tries his hand at revoking religion. |
| 20:00 | | * Shoukanjuu that's not going to happen, sorry XD |
| 20:06 | <@jerith> | I started with Sweden. It'll be a while before I get to the Theocratic States of America. :-P |
| 20:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | That sucks. |
| 20:08 | < Shoukanjuu> | Hurry up, will you? XD |
| 20:30 | | * McMartin checks |
| 20:30 | <@McMartin> | Hey, we don't have an official religion. |
| 20:30 | <@McMartin> | You missed Britian, though. |
| 20:30 | <@McMartin> | Britain, too |
| 20:33 | | * Shoukanjuu gets dot eater for chapter 4. |
| 20:33 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Truly? Look at the de facto religious affiliation requirement for political office. |
| 20:34 | <@McMartin> | "De facto" is a fun word. |
| 20:34 | <@jerith> | Two words. But still fun. |
| 20:34 | <@McMartin> | It is, in particular, the antonym of "de jure". Which is what "official" means. |
| 20:34 | <@McMartin> | And yes, the de facto test is that you have to be Protestant. |
| 20:35 | <@McMartin> | Except now it's "you have to be Christian" since we elected a catholic. |
| 20:35 | <@McMartin> | You have to be a man, too, and white. |
| 20:35 | <@jerith> | Not so much. |
| 20:35 | <@McMartin> | Odds are Very Good one of those will mysteriously never be spoken of again. |
| 20:35 | <@McMartin> | Unless McCain wins the election, in which case it will be claimed as such. |
| 20:35 | <@jerith> | Two of the leading presidential candidate are female and black. |
| 20:35 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | Funny, that. |
| 20:36 | <@jerith> | Well, a sort of muddy brown. |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | "De facto" means "it hasn't happened yet" |
| 20:36 | <@jerith> | Indeed. |
| 20:36 | <@McMartin> | And on the religious side, by the usual definitions, a religious outsider (and Catholics *are* - look at the wackos surrounding McCain rant about Papists and the Whore of Babylon) can and have won the Presidency. |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | Hindus have won congressional seats. |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | Muslims have too. |
| 20:37 | <@McMartin> | No wiccans yet. Proof of discrimination? |
| 20:37 | <@jerith> | But if you consider poll results, far more people will eliminate candidates because they are atheists (or, to a lesser extent, not Christian) than will eliminate blacks or women. |
| 20:38 | <@jerith> | Some states are saner than others. |
| 20:38 | <@McMartin> | I was unaware that the two options were "atheist" and "Fundamentalist Christian". |
| 20:39 | <@McMartin> | This is also colored by the fact that a large number of people who have never met atheists (they're thin on the ground) seem to think that becoming an atheist requires one to accept all of fundie doctrine and then choose explicitly not to serve that God. |
| 20:39 | <@jerith> | Compare the distribution of religion among holders of elected offices and the country in general. |
| 20:39 | <@McMartin> | 80% Christian populace, much higher in places. |
| 20:39 | <@jerith> | They're not so thin on the ground, actually. |
| 20:39 | <@McMartin> | Almost always higher than 50%. |
| 20:40 | | * Shoukanjuu hasn't played Ikaruga is too long |
| 20:40 | <@McMartin> | Self-described atheists are less than 5% of the US, if memory serves. |
| 20:40 | <@McMartin> | And they concentrate, and where they aren't concentrated, they hide. |
| 20:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | Mm-hmm |
| 20:40 | < Shoukanjuu> | People are still afraid of others who are different |
| 20:40 | <@jerith> | I don't think it's hiding so much as unconcern and lack of large-scale organisation. |
| 20:41 | <@McMartin> | Organized atheists have invariably been as bad as the most obnoxious of fundies. |
| 20:41 | <@jerith> | I don't particularly advertise my atheism. but I don't really hide it, either. |
| 20:41 | < Shoukanjuu> | jerith: have you seen good ole christian boys beat the hell out of someone who was NOT christian? |
| 20:41 | < Shoukanjuu> | I have |
| 20:41 | <@jerith> | Shoukanjuu: I am ostensibly Jewish. I have been beaten up fro that reason. |
| 20:42 | <@jerith> | *for |
| 20:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | See? that, too |
| 20:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | If you aren't christian, you're wrong, despite what freedom of religion implies |
| 20:42 | <@jerith> | Not so much in South Africa, though. |
| 20:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | Becasue it's not t he government that controls the people, that's not what they are for |
| 20:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | Perhaps. Anyway, I'm going to the bookstore |
| 20:42 | < Shoukanjuu> | bbiab |
| 20:43 | <@McMartin> | Shou: For the record, try "Freedom of speech includes freedom from speech" and see how far you get~ |
| 20:43 | <@jerith> | Our government is full of idiots, but at least there's no dominant religious affiliation. |
| 20:43 | < Shoukanjuu> | Free to believe whatever you want to belive as long as you can settle for getting your ass kicked in the process |
| 20:43 | <@jerith> | And that is the problem. |
| 20:44 | <@McMartin> | jerith: Christianity is a supermajority in the United States. When you sort that out into large blocks of representatives, the local majority will be larger than the individuals. |
| 20:44 | <@jerith> | Here it's all racial discrimination. |
| 20:44 | <@McMartin> | This is a fundamental trait of FPTP systems. |
| 20:44 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Hence the (loose) de facto religious requirements on officebearers. |
| 20:44 | <@McMartin> | jerith: Right, so, if everyone were voting based on race, and each administrative unit were 55% one race, you'd get a 100% "racial requirement" |
| 20:45 | <@jerith> | Indeed. |
| 20:45 | <@McMartin> | As it happens, people don't vote directly on religion, so the point you're trying to make fails. |
| 20:45 | <@jerith> | Which is what more or less happens here. |
| 20:45 | <@McMartin> | The fact that more people would vote a black, convicted felon, homosexual into office than an atheist -- as polls generally show -- is hostility towards atheists specifically, not a requirement you be a specific creed. |
| 20:46 | <@McMartin> | Most of that hostility is misguided. |
| 20:46 | <@jerith> | A large number of people (based on a poll I cannot currently find, but that seemed fairly well done) /do/ discriminate based on religion. |
| 20:46 | <@McMartin> | But you aren't going to legislate it away. |
| 20:46 | <@McMartin> | You're stating that as if it were self-evidently a bad thing, and it's not. |
| 20:46 | <@jerith> | I don't want to. legislation in these areas is invariably a bad idea. |
| 20:47 | <@McMartin> | OK, so "discrimination" in the US has an overtone of "You can sue them for denying you service" |
| 20:47 | <@McMartin> | It implies "We don't serve blacks or Irish" |
| 20:47 | <@McMartin> | And similar. |
| 20:47 | <@McMartin> | Meanwhile, since I'm actually totally fine with campaigning against somebody on the grounds that they're, say, a Scientologist, it would be wildly hypocritical to say atheists get to be immune. |
| 20:48 | <@McMartin> | Especially since being The Wrong Kind Of Christian gets you stigmatized already. |
| 20:48 | <@McMartin> | Which kind is The Wrong Kind varies by region. |
| 20:48 | <@jerith> | I disagree. You're against scientology because it's a cult with its own agenda. |
| 20:48 | <@McMartin> | And the Southern Baptists aren't? |
| 20:49 | <@jerith> | Not to the same extent, IMHO. |
| 20:49 | <@McMartin> | Great. Who gets to make that decision? |
| 20:49 | <@McMartin> | At the moment, the answer is "each voter individually". |
| 20:49 | <@jerith> | But such organisations are invariably more organised than atheists. |
| 20:50 | <@McMartin> | You're essentially proposing a religious test of your own. |
| 20:50 | <@McMartin> | Just with the bit flipped. |
| 20:50 | <@jerith> | McMartin: The problem isn't so much that the system is broken (it is, but I don't have a solution), it's that the populace is broken. |
| 20:50 | <@McMartin> | Astonishingly, this is rarely a winning line of argument. |
| 20:51 | <@McMartin> | "You all are criminally deranged subhumans. Give me power so that I can put you all in your place" |
| 20:51 | <@McMartin> | The organized atheists in San Diego mostly tried to demolish state monuments. |
| 20:51 | <@jerith> | McMartin: I'm proposing that you discriminate against agendas rather than religions. |
| 20:51 | <@jerith> | Or the lack thereof. |
| 20:51 | <@McMartin> | Right. |
| 20:51 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Really? |
| 20:51 | <@McMartin> | So, that's not what an official religion is. |
| 20:52 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. Mostly stuff from the mission era and battle memorials which involved crosses. |
| 20:52 | <@McMartin> | OMG CHRISTIAN, CAN NOT HAS |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | That's silly. |
| 20:52 | <@McMartin> | The state responded by selling the land to the Mormons. |
| 20:52 | <@McMartin> | Nevertheless. |
| 20:52 | <@McMartin> | I'm perfectly willing to campaign against avowed atheists on the grounds that they are avowed atheists, despite being openly agnostic |
| 20:53 | <@jerith> | On the other hand, spending public funds on overtly religious things in a secular country strikes me as wrong. |
| 20:53 | <@McMartin> | Because in my experience, avowed atheists in politics want to fight retributory culture wars. |
| 20:53 | <@McMartin> | Define "overtly religious" |
| 20:53 | <@jerith> | Um. Can't think of a concrete example offhand. |
| 20:53 | <@McMartin> | There's a point where demographics starts dictating, and for things like "Closed on Christmas Day" we're well past that point. |
| 20:54 | <@McMartin> | "Enough people will be taking this day off for religious reasons that we won't be able to function. Bye." |
| 20:54 | <@jerith> | Wasn't there supposed to be a National Day of Prayer or something? |
| 20:54 | <@McMartin> | Uh, if so, it is not widely observed. |
| 20:54 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Sure, but that should not be legislated. |
| 20:54 | <@jerith> | It's up to the business. |
| 20:54 | <@McMartin> | It doesn't need to be to be public funds. |
| 20:55 | <@McMartin> | Governemnt agencies. |
| 20:55 | <@McMartin> | The Post Office. |
| 20:55 | <@McMartin> | etc. |
| 20:55 | <@jerith> | We have a fast food place which is inconveniently closed over lunch time on a Friday. |
| 20:55 | <@McMartin> | If you decide you're going to either close on Christmas or pay holiday wages for people who *do* work then, you're spending public funds on a religious purpose. |
| 20:56 | <@jerith> | Not really. |
| 20:56 | <@McMartin> | And if someone tries to campaign against that, I'm going to laugh at them. |
| 20:56 | <@McMartin> | If the White House landscapers buy a Christmas tree, that's spending public funds on a religious purpose. |
| 20:56 | <@McMartin> | Or if they host an Easter Egg hunt. |
| 20:56 | <@McMartin> | Frankly, I consider both of those, plus All Hallow's Eve, to be secular holidays now. |
| 20:56 | <@jerith> | There's a difference between giving people the day off on a day celebrated as a holiday by most of the population and funding the building of churches. |
| 20:57 | <@McMartin> | Churches are tax-exempt and have been for ages, with one exception. |
| 20:57 | <@McMartin> | The "no official religion" clause is that all churches are tax-exempt, not just the Presbyterians. |
| 20:58 | <@McMartin> | The gray area here is when churches also run charities and try to integrate with public funding. |
| 20:58 | <@McMartin> | Which is a point where reasonable people can disagree, but most abuses of this in the US have been cases of blatant graft, not evangelization. |
| 20:59 | <@McMartin> | To strawman your counterexample, rebuilding efforts in Katrina should not care whether or not the structures being rebuilt were churches or houses. |
| 20:59 | <@McMartin> | s/in/after/ |
| 21:00 | <@jerith> | McMartin: True. |
| 21:00 | <@McMartin> | Also, more seriously, if the Religious Right had as much power as they claimed and thought they did, Huckabee would have won the R nomination handily, and he got destroyed. |
| 21:01 | | * jerith takes a few minutes to go to bed, will return when the other laptop has booted and the usual evening ablutions are complete. |
| 21:13 | | * jerith returns. |
| 21:40 | <@McMartin> | http://www.adobe.com/openscreenproject/ |
| 22:10 | | * Shoukanjuu got the remaining Sword of Truth novels |
| 22:11 | <@McMartin> | OK. |
| 22:11 | <@McMartin> | The latest release of my application is written. |
| 22:11 | <@McMartin> | Release, then document, or document, then release? |
| 22:11 | | * McMartin is thinking release, document, announce. |
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| 23:22 | < Shoukanjuu> | Mario Kart Wii is so much more forgiving when you're playing again other people. *nodnod!* |
| 23:34 | | Jeff [~JPL@Nightstar-12594.dsl.sndg02.pacbell.net] has joined #code |
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| 23:58 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| --- Log closed Fri May 02 00:00:53 2008 |