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code logs -> 2008 -> Fri, 22 Feb 2008< code.20080221.log - code.20080223.log >
--- Log opened Fri Feb 22 00:00:49 2008
00:04 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2]
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03:15
<@McMartin>
Also, holy cow, Swing actually did what I wanted the first time I tried, and in the simplest manner possible.
03:15
<@McMartin>
Now to make it do what I *really* want, which will require some actual program logic.
03:19
<@McMartin>
(To wit, I want it to resize an image upon resizing its container. Which it is doing for the container.)
03:19
<@McMartin>
(Now to implement the resize an more properly the aspect-ratio preserver.)
03:19
<@McMartin>
(The resize is another "library does this for free" thing)
03:21
<@McMartin>
(Oh hey, so is aspect ratio preservation)
03:30
<@McMartin>
Success!
03:31
<@McMartin>
http://www.stanford.edu/~mcmartin/misc/blorple-4.png
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15:41 * Vornicus finds himself working on VornMoO again.
15:44 * Reiver has a suggestion for Vorn!
15:44
< Reiver>
You seem to have quite a few projects reliant on graphic engines and pathfinding and and and.
15:45
< Reiver>
Issit possible to create some form of common engine where you can bolt the quirks on afterwards, or is that not quite how it works?
15:48
< Vornicus>
That's not quite how it works.
15:48
< Vornicus>
In the end, the greatest common factor is SDL.
15:49
< Vornicus>
And even that isn't used for Settlers
15:49
< Vornicus>
Also, most of my games are rather different from each other.
15:49
< Reiver>
:(
15:50
< Reiver>
Pity.
15:50
< Reiver>
Mind, what I really want is a turn-based hex grid. 3D optional, but a large bonus~
15:50
< Vornicus>
you might be able to hack one out of Megamek
15:51
< Reiver>
...Actually what I sort of want is a DMTools with added rules being able to be bolted in. That would be handy.
15:51 * Vornicus fiddles. How fast can he put together some star arts.
15:52
< Reiver>
?
15:52
< Vornicus>
I have star location stuff, and I want to get it rendering.
15:56 * Vornicus therefore fiddles with Pygame.
15:57 * Vornicus says Fuck That Noise, raids the SEIV art.
16:01 * Vornicus examines, discovers that there's not enough stars in there.
16:03 * Vornicus remembers FreeOrion, raids that instead.
16:08
< Vornicus>
Jackpot.
16:08
< Reiver>
...Wait, there's already a MoO out there?
16:09
< Vornicus>
FreeOrion is... far from complete.
16:10
< Vornicus>
It's not playable.
16:10
< Vornicus>
Well, it's "playable", but it's not a game yet.
16:10
< Reiver>
?
16:11
< Vornicus>
It's essentially a tech demo of about half the stuff they'll need.
16:12
< Reiver>
So you want to write your own replacement instead of signing up?
16:12 * Reiver isn't critical; merely curious.
16:13
< Vornicus>
They're making somethng Big, along the lines of Galciv2
16:14
< Vornicus>
It doesn't look anything like MoO1, and I don't think it looks like MoO2 either.
16:17
< Vornicus>
Green white yellow red blue neutron.
16:18
< Vornicus>
...oh look, no green in FreeOrion's art. Cool.
16:19
< Vornicus>
Has orange and purple htough.
16:21 * Reiver ponders.
16:21
< Vornicus>
Yeeeeus?
16:21
< Reiver>
I always did like how MoO had relatively freeform jumps.
16:21
< Reiver>
(Everything else seems to insist on hexes these days.)
16:22
< Vornicus>
FreeOrion has star lanes, like SEIV
16:22
< Vornicus>
But no in-system travel, so it's purely star lanes for travel.
16:23
< Reiver>
...Then it's not realy MoO any more, is it.
16:23
< Vornicus>
it's really a very different game.
16:23
< Vornicus>
it has Civ-style tech tree.
16:23
< Reiver>
The whole thing was that you had that whole maximum range thing. I /liked/ that thing.
16:24
< Reiver>
...I do kind of like that.
16:25
< Reiver>
Though it has to be done very, very carefully.
16:25 * Reiver winces how many games come up with a 'civ-style tree' and then /fuck it up/
16:25
< Reiver>
Not least having some bastard child between Civ and SEIV.
16:26
< Reiver>
(AKA Civ-style discrete levels in a pretty tree... and then they go and make the branches 'weapons' 'propulsion' 'sheilds', etc.)
16:26 * Vornicus ponders. He knows of three styles of tech tree: MoO, with the six branches and free-form progression in each one, Civ, which is actually treeish, and SE, with individual techs and lots of levels in each one.
16:26
< Vornicus>
Reiver: like Galciv 2?
16:27
< Reiver>
(Wheras what I'd like is for each tree to be different, but ... if not everything, at least well rounded that one or two main focuses, with a dabble in a couple others, can do you well.)
16:27
< Vornicus>
FreeOrion seems to have Done That Bit Right
16:27
< Reiver>
((Not for MoO, I mean. They do things MoO style.))
16:27
< Vornicus>
Or at least their current tree is proper.
16:27
< Reiver>
Vorn: Not even that. That still had 'lasers' 'missiles' 'armor', etc.
16:28
< Reiver>
No, what I more mean is more like a racial choice, but based on your technology.
16:28
< Vornicus>
I don't quite see what you're getting at.
16:28
< Reiver>
Think of how SEIV organic and temporal techs work.
16:28
< Vornicus>
Okay.
16:29
< Vornicus>
What about it?
16:29
< Reiver>
Then have your trees working... sort of like that. You can be a Jack Of All Techs, or you can be a Tachyonic specialist. Or have studied in depth the art of magnetic feilds, and their requisite techs (Fusion, plasma, etc)
16:31
< Vornicus>
I... still don't quite see what you're getting at.
16:31
< Vornicus>
Or, rather
16:31 mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ
16:31
< Reiver>
The point being that I'm dumping most of my points into Electromagnetics, with sidelines into offshoot branches of Fusion Torch, Plasma Beam, eventually Plasma Torpedos, and finally Plasma Cannon.
16:31 * Vornicus tries [Fri 11:28:39] Reiver (AKA Civ-style discrete levels in a pretty tree... and then they go and make the branches 'weapons' 'propulsion' 'sheilds', etc.) <--- that. What's wrong with that.
16:32
< Vornicus>
Or, rather, what game does that?
16:32
<@ToxicFrog>
Reiver: how is that different from either tree or SE-style?
16:33
< Reiver>
I forget. It was, uh, pretty forgettable. >.>
16:33
< Reiver>
I think it's just a variation of trees.
16:33 * Reiver thinks.
16:34
< Reiver>
Civ-style games tend to fall into one of two main camps - a big web-type tree where it /looks/ like you have a choice in what to research, but really you need to research the whole lot at one level in order to get that crucial tech at later ones (No consscripts for j00, because you never learned cerimonial burial, bitch)
16:35
< Reiver>
Or you have a 'tree' that really isn't interconnected or branching at all, and at 1st level you get to research Weapon Tech (Branches into Laser Tech and Missile Tech, which then go to Laser Tech II, Missile Tech II, etc), Propulsion (Tactical X, Strategic X, /if you're lucky/), etc)
16:36
< Reiver>
So basically SEIV, but with it written out as a tree rather than a table, so to speak.
16:36
< Reiver>
What I am thinking is... a bitch to balance for one, but
16:37
< Reiver>
It's a tree where the branches you choose to focus on tend to give offshoots that mean that you can get by with a large chunk of your society relying on your one quirk.
16:38
< Reiver>
The Industrial player may not have sheilds, but by god he can churn out armor plating like its going out of fashion; whilst the Quantum Physics player's ships might be made of tinfoil but you have to /hit the buggers first/; etc.
16:38
< Reiver>
Sort of like, y'know how MoO, once you start pouring points into a specific tech, you get a whole spread of technology out of it, often quite diverse and varied?
16:39
< Reiver>
And quite a lot of it doing a pretty good job in several places (Weapons gives you stronger landing troops, but so does exoskeletons, and so does personal sheilds, and so does...)
16:39
< Vornicus>
Well, sorta, except that in MoO you still need to research in all fields to get anything even vaguely resembling a sane civ.
16:39
< Reiver>
(And the thing is, /you can get by without having all of them/ and /you didn't have to dump 50k into 'landing infantry technologies' to get them/.)
16:40
< Reiver>
Well, I grant you that. But then MoO was being fairly straightforward.
16:40
< Vornicus>
MoO is very straightforward.
16:40
< Reiver>
I guess what I'm after is a setup which deliberately allows you to go crazypants down a tech tree and neglect large swaths of it.
16:41
< Reiver>
Not 'cuz it does better than everything else, but because you're quite liking the Fancy Wismos it's giving you, and it's getting you enough spinoff tech that it's /good enough/, even if not perfect.
16:41
< Reiver>
One race invents the internal combustion engine; ends up with cruise missiles. Another race ended up going with electric cars - ended up with railguns.
16:42
< Reiver>
Does /that/ make more sense? >.>
16:42
< Vornicus>
Yes.
16:43
< Reiver>
The idea being that you end up working on a certain themed tech, and it happens to give enough offshoot techs that you can make a viable race out of it.
16:44
< Reiver>
Electromagnetic bottles may not be the perfect engine, but people fear your plasma cannon; tachyon drives may be all fancypants fast, sure, but they're a bit weak on defense, even if they /do/ weild tachyon cannon to needle you to death.
16:45
< Reiver>
And nobody, nobody, trusts the biologist who starts constructing orbital bombardment craft~
16:46 * Reiver shrugs. It's just an idea he's toyed with; not nessisarily a good one.
16:47
< Vornicus>
I like it.
16:48
<@jerith>
*necessarily
16:49
< Reiver>
The idea being partially to end up with, well, hostile races that are different to each other.
16:49
< Vornicus>
Reiver: how about the geologist that starts constructing them?
16:49
< Reiver>
Rather than everyone scaling the same tech tree in the same manner, if you will.
16:49
<@jerith>
Yay for debugging a problem that is not only highly arcane, but also /already solved/ in the dev branch.
16:50
< Reiver>
Vorn: That's not a matter of trust, that's a matter of pre-emptive strikes~
16:50
< Vornicus>
True~
16:51
< Reiver>
"It's just a terraforming tool!" "Yes, and you ruined my planet with it"
16:51
< Reiver>
"Ooops~"
16:51
< Reiver>
Along similar lines, you don't build specific facilities on your planets, like Galciv and SEIV. It's a touch more MoO, but with a few quirks in the idea.
16:52 * Vornicus really likes the MoO planetary improvements system.
16:52
< Reiver>
Basically you really need population. Population is the, well, Jack Of All Trades for a planet.
16:53
<@jerith>
This looks like a really interesting conversation that I should go back and read when my brain is working better.
16:53 * Reiver too. Would like, essentially, a refinement of it rather than something too different.
16:53
< Reiver>
So basically you can tell a high-pop planet to do /anytihng/, and it will do pretty good at it.
16:54
< Reiver>
Of course, if you tell it to industrialise, it will put its production towards building factories, which makes it really good at cranking out them spaceships or whatever.
16:54 * Vornicus does not, however, like its "yu just got a new tech! Would you like to rejigger all your planets to take advantage of it?"
16:54
< Reiver>
Tell it to put its resources towards research, and as part of that it will end up full of science labs and stuff.
16:55
< Reiver>
Thus you end up, eventually, with Research Planets, and factory Planets, but it's not because you spent time building factories on the things.
16:55
<@jerith>
I'd make it change tracks pretty slowly, though.
16:55
< Vornicus>
jerith: I think that's what he's aiming at.
16:55
<@jerith>
You can't take a planetful of engineers and turn them into scientists.
16:55
< Reiver>
And a well developed planet will have quite a few factories /and/ laboratories /and/ X /and/ Y...
16:56
<@jerith>
But you tweak education priorities and federal funding.
16:56 mode/#code [+oo Vornicus Reiver] by jerith
16:56
<@Reiver>
...At which point you can either throw /all/ your population at Building Spaceships, but you'd get far, far more value for your money by leaving 10% of them running the laboratories.
16:57
<@Reiver>
I guess its closer to 'manpower' than strictly 'laboratories'.
16:57
<@Vornicus>
And then of course you get situations like Trantor.
16:57
<@jerith>
If you throw accountants and scientists at shipbuilding, they'd do it badly.
16:57
<@Reiver>
?
16:57
<@jerith>
I like the idea of a funding slider which you can set.
16:57
<@Vornicus>
Where the opportunity cost of farming on-planet is high enough that you offload it to other planets.
16:58
<@jerith>
Based on this, the population slowly shifts.
16:58
<@Reiver>
jerith: And yet, you'd be amazed at just how fast an economy can respecc in a pinch, assuming its education levels etc are up to scratch.
16:58
<@Reiver>
(Now there's an interesting meter of whether you've been putting enough back into the planet~)
16:58
< Jeff>
Wait, I'm curious. Are we considering the plausibility of economies respecing in a vaccum, in reality, or as a game mechanic?
16:58
<@jerith>
You can force people into new roles (and I'd make this happen automatically for big shifts) but they'd do the new job badly until they retrained.
16:58
<@Reiver>
Vorn: Aha, yes.
16:58
<@Vornicus>
Jeff: game mechanic.
16:59
<@Reiver>
That actually gives me the other thought(s) I had with this system, where you're working more with sliders than buttons.
16:59
<@Reiver>
You build your warships custom-built etc, oh sure.
16:59
<@Reiver>
Civilian stuff, though, you merely set trade routes.
16:59
< Jeff>
Well, yes, I figured the end result would be a game mechanic.
17:00
<@jerith>
I'd give it about a decade to switch 50% from one track to another.
17:00
< Jeff>
I'm just curious as to what considerations we're giving to "real" economies here.
17:00
<@jerith>
Logarithmic change, though.
17:00
<@Vornicus>
Logistic.
17:00
<@Reiver>
Much like population, your density of civilian stuff tends to grow organically without intervention, and the ships involved tend to be roughly autoupgrading to a civilian-spec level of tech over time.
17:00
<@jerith>
Jeff: I think we're trying for a realistic "feel" here, if not realistic economics.
17:01
<@jerith>
Reiver: Interesting idea.
17:01 * Vornicus hunts around, finds his population growth modeller.
17:01
<@Reiver>
You can, of course, have Government Initiatives to encourage lots of civilian craft; or directly just build the craft yourself; but why bother when you can commandeer the things in times of war?~
17:01
<@jerith>
All military tech starts out classified.
17:02
<@jerith>
After a certain amount of time (accelerated by use), it declassifies.
17:02
<@Reiver>
This gets around the bit that always bugged me in SEIV/SEV/GalCiv: There's No Space Ships Out There Unless You Build 'Em.
17:02
<@jerith>
You can declassify immediately.
17:02
<@Reiver>
Which, okay, warships fine
17:02
<@Reiver>
But, y'know, what about the Minions?
17:02
<@Vornicus>
http://vorn.dyndns.org/~vorn/mooclone/pop_growth.py <--- my MoO population growth modeller. Growth rate depends on the product of the current population, and the remaining unused resources.
17:02
<@Reiver>
...Ehhhh.
17:02
<@jerith>
Declassified tech is available to civilians, but your enemies have a much easier time of reverse engineering it, too.
17:03
<@Reiver>
One thing to be careful of, jerith, is you want each individual set of rules to be relatvely simple. You can overcomplicate things, but it just makes it overwhelming for a human to track. Even the simplest system can have great depth.
17:03
<@jerith>
So if you keep a tight rein on your tech, you can stay ahead of the curve longer but your economy can't take full advantage of it.
17:04 * Reiver twitches re: Reverse Engineering. That'll have to be carefully done, in a game where each player can have radically different tech trees.
17:04
<@jerith>
Reiver: I'm in favour of complex rules with sensible defaults.
17:04 * Vornicus is in favor of simple rules, turned up to 11.
17:04
<@jerith>
I want to be able to play the game on easy mode without worrying about 90% of the knobs.
17:04
<@jerith>
I want those knobs to be there for the 10th and 100th games I play.
17:04
<@Reiver>
jerith: Civililation succeeded because each set of rules was simple in its intuitiveness.
17:05 * Vornicus likes having only a very few knobs, but such that very careful manipulation makes it possible to get some crazy effects.
17:05
<@Reiver>
But there were enough, and they /interacted such/, that it became very complex.
17:05
<@jerith>
True.
17:05
<@Reiver>
The complexity should be in the interactions, not the underlying rules.
17:06 * Reiver is with Vorn, he thinks.
17:06
<@Reiver>
Also!
17:06
<@jerith>
I think my classified stuff works with a different game system, though.
17:06
<@Reiver>
Speaking of things-just-happen-darnit
17:06 * Vornicus also notes that the simple rules turned up to 11 is how the universe works.
17:06
<@Reiver>
It would, aye. And may even have a place as a security thingy.
17:06
<@jerith>
Vorn: Except the simple rules are at a much lower level.
17:07
<@Reiver>
Planets have Morale. This is partly cultural, partly proximity to other planets, partly popularity, partly local conditions.
17:07
<@Vornicus>
True.
17:07
<@Reiver>
If morale gets dangerously low, you start running the risk of revolts, and if /really/ bad, revolutions.
17:08
<@Reiver>
But there's another, more insidious effect at hand: Planets with low morale don't fight as well.
17:08
<@jerith>
Re: morale: Some things (bread and circuses) increase morale quickly but for a short period of time.
17:08 You're now known as TheWatcher[afk]
17:09
<@jerith>
Others (civil rights) are much slower to act, but more solid.
17:09
<@Reiver>
...Give me a moment. I think you're getting ahead there.
17:09
<@Reiver>
Y'see, rather than the "I throw my population at your population" mechanic of ohgodsomany games, your planets can be assinged military troops (Shifting combat population around, basically), and will also, if morale/popularity remains high, feild their own bloody militias.
17:09
<@jerith>
I'm just throwing out ideas as they come to me.
17:10
<@Reiver>
When invading, it's these enemy infantry that you have to fight.
17:10
<@Reiver>
So, essentially, if the planet is strongly loyal towards you, you have to kill off a not insubstantial portion of the planet, as its populace rises up against ze oppressors
17:10
<@jerith>
You can choose to nuke from orbit, but then you kill infrastructure as well as soldiers.
17:11
<@jerith>
Umm, which "you"?
17:11
<@Reiver>
...but if it's a backwater planet you'd been neglecting and hadn't even put a garrison on, it may well simply go 'meh' or even 'hooray', and let the invaders in via the front door.
17:11
<@jerith>
If you're the liberator rather than the conqueror, you'll take the planet rather more easily.
17:11
<@jerith>
How much politics do you want?
17:12
<@Reiver>
Er. s/you, you/you, they/
17:12
<@jerith>
Because this morale stuff is definitely getting toward political rather than merely logistical/economic
17:12
<@Reiver>
Internal politics and policies are to affect things as much as external diplomacy.
17:12
<@jerith>
Cool.
17:12
<@Reiver>
Diplomacy itself is relatively straightforward, though.
17:13
<@jerith>
You'd want a few knobs for internal policies.
17:13
<@Reiver>
The morale stuff is, perhaps, better put as 'loyalty/popularity'.
17:13 * jerith thinks.
17:14
<@jerith>
Okay, you want a "whatever /you/ want to do" knob on the planetary control thing.
17:14
<@Reiver>
Incidentally, bombing a planet will increase its resolve against you (the aggressor) who did so. ...up until you've bombed it /enough/, at which point it pretty much collapses.
17:14
<@Reiver>
People get really angry when you drop rocks on them.
17:14
<@Reiver>
Drop enough, and they just beg for it to stop. <g>
17:15
<@jerith>
This lets you have a free market economy which is less easily bent to your will, but improves morale.
17:15
<@Reiver>
'course, you've just comitted genocide anyway, so you might not be too popular in general.
17:15
<@Reiver>
Works. That's the sort of thing I'd have, yes.
17:15
<@jerith>
You can also allocate resources and taxes such that you have an implicit communist/socialist/capitalist scale.
17:16
<@Reiver>
Wartime economies tend to batten down the hatches right quick, but you get fatigue eating away at the efficiency over time unless the war stays heavy. (People will put up with it longer if the war is /real/. But again, after a certain point, you simply risk exhaustion and collapse.)
17:16
<@jerith>
Yeah.
17:16
<@jerith>
You may want to model wealth scales on the plaets, too.
17:17
<@Reiver>
And the fleet thing is significant - for one, it means that shipyards that aren't building warships are /not/ 'sitting idle', per se.
17:17
<@jerith>
Socialism gives you much more morale with the poor (while you have money for it, at least), capitalism with the rich.
17:17
<@Reiver>
No, when you're not using shipyards, the civilians are.
17:17
<@Reiver>
...actually that's a pretty good way to model the military collapse thing.
17:18 * jerith ponders.
17:18
<@Reiver>
Fight for too long, using up the shipyards and commandeering the civilian fleets, and you end up having to either directly finance a Liberty-ship type operation, or your economy will collapse all of itself.
17:18
<@jerith>
I've been leaning toward civilian and military shipyards being separate, but that's only really necessary with my classified tech idea.
17:19
<@jerith>
But treat "shipyards" there as "general space-going infrastructure" and you have the same thing.
17:19
<@Reiver>
That's what I was thinking, aye.
17:20
<@jerith>
Only without the military guys having to throw half-built yachts out of their berths when they want to build battlecruisers.
17:20
<@Reiver>
And, just like everything else, it's a matter of capacity and priority.
17:20
<@Reiver>
A planet left to its own devices will potter along developing all aspects of its economy relatively evenly.
17:20
< Jeff>
"Liberty-ship type operation"?
17:20
<@jerith>
More like "sorry, sir, the Navy just bought all the parts".
17:20
<@Reiver>
A planet with a directive will focus on that area, and potter along in that.
17:21
<@Reiver>
Jeff: See also, WWII merchant ship class vessel.
17:21
<@jerith>
Reiv: I'd give planets a cultural bias toward something.
17:21
< Jeff>
I'm afraid that data is not in my endocortex. Would you care to expand it?
17:21
<@Reiver>
A planet with a directive and a /funding injection/, is how you 'build' facilities directly.
17:21
<@jerith>
A planet that has been building ships for a long time will want to continue doing so whether you tell them to or not.
17:21
<@Reiver>
Though again, there's only so much you can fund; or rather it may well be an exponential price tag.
17:22
<@jerith>
Some planets may have prestigious universities and therefore be biased toward research.
17:22
<@Reiver>
Jeff: During WWII there was the battle of the atlantic - essentially, it was a war between how fast the Allies could build ships and how fast the Germans could sink them.
17:23
<@jerith>
Anyways, I must go hunt down some food and then go home for the evening.
17:23
<@jerith>
I'll be back laterish.
17:23
<@Reiver>
The Liberty-class ships were basically cheap, mass-mass-mass-produced transport ships used to ship supplies to the UK.
17:24
<@Reiver>
Standardised so that dockyards could just churn them out.
17:25
<@Reiver>
Significant in that this was a wartime, government project.
17:25
< Jeff>
How should the commander be alerted that his economy is collapsing?
17:25
<@Reiver>
Done mostly because most of the civilian shipping kept getting sunk.
17:25
< Jeff>
Or is this one of the games that indirectly models that founding principle of Discordianis?
17:25
< Jeff>
m.
17:26
<@Reiver>
With any luck, it should be immedediately apparent.
17:26
<@Reiver>
As you find over time that you /just don't have enough ships/ to get A to B in time for you to C.
17:27
<@Reiver>
Also loss reports, etc. >.>
17:27
<@Reiver>
Now, the main reason I have civilian ships being modeled like this at all, is so that a) you don't have magic teleportation of supplies from A to B, b) they can be commandeered, and c) so they can be /shot at/.
17:27
< Jeff>
What I'm worried is that someone will see that their economy is collapsing and the money they're getting per turn is falling, but have no idea why.
17:29
<@Reiver>
End Of Month Report: Combat Losses - 197KU Civilian Shipping~
17:29
<@Reiver>
(197 KiloUnits, fwiw)
17:30
<@Reiver>
(Whatever a Unit is. It doesn't really matter much, though. >.>)
17:30
<@Reiver>
Also the report should have nice pretty percentages.
17:31
<@Reiver>
% transportation efficiency (stuff able to get to where it wanted to go), % transportation losses (piracy, corruption, hostile action), %overall popularity, etc.
17:32
<@Reiver>
Though possibly it'd be even better if those were a set of pretty map overlays.
17:32
<@Reiver>
So the trade routes where ships are dying get progressively bolder red; while planets that aren't getting trade successfully also light up red or orange or whatever.
17:33
<@Reiver>
You can thus tell at a glance where troublespots are in trade, or loyalty/morale, or flick on the military overlay and see where your troops are and how happy they are to be there, &etc.
17:34
<@Reiver>
Actually that's not a bad idea - size of the spot for scale, colour for status.
17:34
<@Reiver>
Thus if you have a big red dot, you've got a big planet that's getting very angry at you; suggest deploying guardsmen now before you need to deploy drop infantry marines later. >.>
17:35 * gnolam slaps Reiver.
17:35
<@gnolam>
Small k for kilo. :P
17:35
<@Reiver>
Okay, okay.
17:35
<@Reiver>
Vacuums~
17:36
<@Reiver>
bah, everyone uses the big one these days anyway~
17:41 GeekSoldier|work [~Rob@Nightstar-9493.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #code
17:41 AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.57.ns-4950] has quit [Ping Timeout]
17:44 GeekSoldier|work is now known as GeekSoldier
17:48 AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.57.ns-4950] has joined #Code
17:48 mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ
17:52
<@McMartin>
Small k is 1000, big K is 1024.
17:53
<@Vornicus>
though ISO insists that hte latter is Ki
17:53
<@Vornicus>
Think it's ISO anyway
17:53
<@McMartin>
I prefer that to the horrific KibiBytes
17:53 * McMartin gives his RAM gigantic anime eyes and megacephaly
17:53
<@McMartin>
Chibibytes!
17:54
<@Vornicus>
hee
17:54 * AnnoDomini needs to set Vornicus' nick some colour. It looks like a monologue too much.
17:54
<@Vornicus>
ah, iec
17:55
<@ToxicFrog>
McMartin: the two are the same.
17:55
<@ToxicFrog>
According to IEC, "kilobyte" is 10^3 and "kibibyte" is 2^10
17:55
<@McMartin>
SI says "k" for "kilo", full stop.
17:56
<@McMartin>
big K according to SI is Never Right.
17:56 * Vornicus eyes.
17:56
<@Vornicus>
"The quoted capacity of 3 1/2 inch HD floppy disks is 1.44 MB, where MB stands for 1000 times 1024 bytes. The total capacity is thus 1,474,560 bytes, or approximately 1.41 MiB."
17:57
<@ToxicFrog>
McMartin: so, to me, it makes sense to use k for power-of-10 kilo and K for power-of-2.
17:57
<@McMartin>
... then we don't disagree.
17:58
<@ToxicFrog>
Indeed.
17:59 * Vornicus fiddles with Pygame, tries to remember how to get it going.
18:05 * Vornicus thinks he just succeeded.
18:10
< GeekSoldier>
voodoo seems to work for that, Vorn.
18:11 * ToxicFrog rummages through his music collection
18:24
<@ToxicFrog>
AS has some interface issues.
18:24
<@ToxicFrog>
But it is fun.
18:35 You're now known as TheWatcher
18:50
<@McMartin>
The biggest interface issue at the moment seems to be switching between mouse and keyboard control mid-track
18:50
<@McMartin>
Well, when you aren't Double Vision.
18:55 * Vornicus fiddles, turns his star generator into an iterator function, convinces it to do that... now, to figure out how to get the other bit going.
19:03
<@ToxicFrog>
I mean more the way it presents my music in totally random order.
19:03
<@McMartin>
Aha.
19:03
<@ToxicFrog>
This makes finding a specific track way harder than it should be.
19:04
<@McMartin>
Yeah, I made a specific directory for "stuff to feed to AudioSurf"
19:04
<@ToxicFrog>
In-game I have no problems, but I play mouse exclusively.
19:04
<@McMartin>
But then, that's in large part because my *real* music collection is on an ext3 drive~
19:04 * McMartin nods
19:04
<@ToxicFrog>
So is mine.
19:05
<@ToxicFrog>
However, it's also SMB-exported as M: on my gaming machine.
19:05
<@McMartin>
For some of the faster songs, Keyboard's perfect lane precision is a bonus.
19:05
<@McMartin>
"Is on an ext3 drive on the same system as the one playing AudioSurf"
19:05
<@ToxicFrog>
(and back when it was a dual boot, it was mounted as L: using the windows ext2 drivers)
19:05
<@McMartin>
(Aha. Yeah, I don't trust XP with my /home =P)
19:06
<@ToxicFrog>
That reminds me. What does "no shoulder" mean in a ship description?
19:06
<@McMartin>
That there are only three lanes instead of five.
19:06
<@McMartin>
Essentially, there is no escape from the onrushing blocks.
19:07
<@McMartin>
On shouldered levels you have the option of going all the way to one side or the other and simply not hitting anything.
19:07
<@McMartin>
Since "hit no grey blocks" is good for a 30% score boost on Pro and Elite, they remove the ability to just sit out the hard bits of the song.
19:08
<@McMartin>
Though Mono Pro's ability to jump lets you do controlled skips, anyway.
19:18
<@ToxicFrog>
Oh.
19:18
<@ToxicFrog>
I didn't realize you could move to the outer edges of the track like that, so I never did.
19:19
<@McMartin>
It's a crutch, imo~
19:20
<@McMartin>
(Says the guy who essentially plays nothing but Mono Pro and gets lolpwnt with any of the multicolors)
20:05 Pi-2 is now known as Pi
20:09 * Vornicus ...gets his starmap renderer working.
20:10
<@Vornicus>
Holy shit that's cool.
20:11
<@ToxicFrog>
It's always nice when that happens.
20:13
<@Vornicus>
http://vorn.dyndns.org/~vorn/mooclone/render.py <--- the code. Oh god it's ugly.
20:15
<@Vornicus>
http://vorn.dyndns.org/~vorn/mooclone/star_art.zip <--- the art. I stole it from FreeOrion.
20:16
<@Vornicus>
You'll need Pygame installed to run it.
20:17
< GeekSoldier>
very nice.
20:17
<@Vornicus>
Also it doesn't respond to anything yet.
20:17
< GeekSoldier>
yeah, I saw that.
20:19
<@jerith>
Nice.
21:43 gnolam is now known as Wernher_von_Braun
21:44 Wernher_von_Braun is now known as gnolam
21:57 * TheWatcher ponders
21:57
<@TheWatcher>
Idly, is rafb.net run by anyone in here?
21:57
<@Vornicus>
No.
21:57
<@TheWatcher>
Hm. Right
21:58
<@Vornicus>
Why?
22:02 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2
22:02 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2]
22:04
<@TheWatcher[T-2]>
*shrug* curious, mainly. I tend to be vaguely wary of pastebins. Just me.
22:06 You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ]
22:14 * Vornicus does battle with mouse events.
22:15
<@McMartin>
Which library?
22:15
<@Vornicus>
Pygame.
22:16
<@Vornicus>
This shouldn't be too hard. Really the thing I have to do battle with is, how do I translate the mouse events into the actual commands?
22:16
<@McMartin>
That's much harder
22:17
<@McMartin>
Becuase you're going to have to write your own widget library. =P
22:17
<@gnolam>
Ah. The non-trivial problem.
22:18
<@Vornicus>
Well, it's not widgets at this point
22:18
<@Vornicus>
it's a thing that I have to pan and zoom over.
22:19
<@McMartin>
That's basically invisible widgets. It's a bunch of layers of rectangles each of which intercept mouse move and click events.
22:23 * Vornicus has to figure out, first, what the various buttons /are/
22:26 * Vornicus puts in a debug thing. Oh, god that's cool.
22:30 * Vornicus examines. lmb, mmb, rmb, wheelup, wheeldown.
22:32
<@Vornicus>
then there's "activeevents", which look to be stuff like mouse leaving or returning, and gaining and losing focus.
22:35
<@McMartin>
Nod
22:42 * Vornicus doesn't think he needs to handle any of those.
22:42 AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.57.ns-4950] has quit [Ping Timeout]
22:43 AnnoDomini [AnnoDomini@83.21.57.ns-4950] has joined #Code
22:43 mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ
22:44
<@Vornicus>
Yeah, I can't think of any situations where I do.
22:51 * Vornicus wonders how you do 'throw'
22:59 GeekSoldier is now known as GeekSoldier|bed
23:18
<@McMartin>
"throw"?
23:18
<@McMartin>
Like, a really fast drag?
23:22
<@Vornicus>
throw: drag, and release the button while moving the mouse.
23:23
<@Vornicus>
With dragging equal to panning.
23:23 * Jeff just went to an engineering job fair.
23:23
<@Vornicus>
What then happens is that you impart the velocity of the drag to the thing you're panning.
23:24
< Jeff>
So, it turns out, at a job fair, people won't actually tell you they're a military contractor until you've already given them your resume.
23:47
<@McMartin>
Heh
23:47
<@McMartin>
Well, they can't force you to take the job.
23:49 * Vornicus fiddles. Needs to refactor a lot of this.
--- Log closed Sat Feb 23 00:00:56 2008
code logs -> 2008 -> Fri, 22 Feb 2008< code.20080221.log - code.20080223.log >
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