| --- Log opened Thu Apr 19 00:00:53 2007 |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | 15:58 <@McMartin> You can do getattr to test if a method is defined.. |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | 15:58 < pst> ah |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | 15:58 <@McMartin> And to do reflective dispatch, which is always fun. |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | 15:58 < eli> or hasattr, iirc |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | 15:59 <@geordan> don't use hasattr three times in a row though |
| 00:02 | < Attilla> | Hee |
| 00:04 | < Vornicus> | sad |
| 00:05 | <@Serah> | Silly. |
| 00:05 | | Mahal [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 00:05 | | mode/#code [+p] by Vornicus |
| 00:06 | | mode/#code [-p] by Vornicus |
| 00:06 | | * Vornicus missed |
| 00:08 | < Janus> | Raise the lid next time |
| 00:09 | | * Janus ducks. |
| 00:10 | | * Vornicus throws Janus out the airlock. |
| 00:11 | | Mahal [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has joined #Code |
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| 00:16 | < MyCatVerbs> | +p? |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Private. Shows up in LIST but the channel name is masked out. |
| 00:18 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hrmn. Wouldn't "shows a usercount of exactly 1 on LIST" be the quickest (safest?) way of deflecting bots' attentions? |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...no? |
| 00:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | Nobody really seems to bother throwing spambots at empty channels. >_> |
| 00:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, first of all, most bots that don't prioritize high-user-count channels instead go for whatever channels show up first in list. |
| 00:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Furthermore, a channel with one person in it is by definition not empty. |
| 00:21 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oooh. Hence #oubliette |
| 00:21 | < Vornicus> | Which is why oub works - we have fiddled our dictionary walker to make oub first. |
| 00:26 | < Janus> | ... why do advertising bots have such poor grammar when they advertise? |
| 00:27 | < MyCatVerbs> | They're programmed by humans with bad grammar? |
| 00:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Or downloaded by scriptkiddies with piss-poor grasps of the English language? |
| 00:29 | < Vornicus> | They're also advertising mostly to lamers |
| 00:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Can't afford to appear too much cleverer than your target market, I guess. |
| 00:31 | < Janus> | That explains political campaigns. |
| 00:33 | < Attilla> | ZING |
| 00:33 | | * MyCatVerbs hugs Janus. |
| 00:33 | | * Janus wiggles~ |
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| 04:48 | | * ToxicFrog eyes the printf man page |
| 04:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | "Supporting OS calls required: close fstat isatty lseek read sbrk write" |
| 04:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, I can see write and maybe isatty and lseek, but...close? sbrk? |
| 04:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | IT'S ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE |
| 04:53 | <@McMartin> | ? |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | The program that will get me two weeks of DVR time. |
| 04:54 | <@McMartin> | Sweet. |
| 04:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, it's not alive ENOUGH! I need a merry-go-round that can level a small village! |
| 04:54 | <@McMartin> | ...whut |
| 04:54 | | * ToxicFrog ponders whether to work on the string interpolation library or the MDB loader first |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | I synced with the GG101 buffer this morning, then read the entirety of GGA. |
| 04:55 | <@McMartin> | Aha. |
| 04:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | It may have affected my thought patterns slightly. |
| 04:55 | <@McMartin> | I still need to do that. |
| 04:55 | | * McMartin has the first book here. |
| 04:55 | | * McMartin cues "Lava Shelter", because all really quality villain hideouts are inside volcanoes and have lava defense systems. |
| 04:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | New Lava Reef mix? |
| 04:56 | <@McMartin> | No, it's a Shadow level |
| 04:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 04:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | To me, Orias, and we shall plunder the internet! |
| 04:57 | <@McMartin> | ? |
| 04:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | For the soundtrack. |
| 04:58 | <@McMartin> | Oh, right. |
| 04:58 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, the soundtrack as a whole has its moments but it varies widely. |
| 04:58 | <@McMartin> | And unlike the Heroes soundtrack isn't packed with spoilers, particularly. |
| 04:58 | <@McMartin> | I did find it kind of odd that they put all the credit-roll themes first, though. |
| 04:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | I can just tell Orias "go fetch Shadow the Hedgehog music" and check on it half an hour later. It's good to be a programmer. |
| 04:59 | <@McMartin> | I think my top tracks are Waking Up, Chosen One, Digital Circuit, Sky Troops, Mad Matrix, and Lava Shelter. |
| 04:59 | <@McMartin> | The first two are credit-rolls (for Neutral and Semi-Hero, respectively.) |
| 04:59 | | * ToxicFrog decides that the string interpolation library gets priority, because (1) it's easy to write (2) it's more useful to this project in specific and (3) it's useful to several of my other projects, notably Spellcast34 |
| 04:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...Spellcast3, even. |
| 05:00 | | * McMartin wanders off to give the PS2 a workout. |
| 05:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | I should raid the local Microplay for copies. |
| 05:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | PS2 vs Cube version, thoughts? |
| 05:01 | <@McMartin> | I'm the only person with a copy that I know. I have the PS2 version. |
| 05:01 | <@McMartin> | There are bits of the game that seem to be there for the express purpose of showing off that they have in fact fixed the near-gamekilling bugs in Heroes. |
| 05:01 | <@McMartin> | And in the PS2 version, at least, they are indeed fixed. |
| 05:02 | | * McMartin ran into no physics bugs when playing Shadow, just a handful of terrible game design choices. |
| 05:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | The PS2 also has an Inherently Superior controller. |
| 05:03 | <@McMartin> | Indeed |
| 05:03 | | * McMartin heads off for Icoage. |
| 05:03 | | * ToxicFrog attempts to steal McM's copy of Ico with the power of his mind |
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| 05:31 | | * ToxicFrog determines that GHDL is broken not because the page format has changed again, but because the SQL backend is hosed. |
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| 13:12 | <@Vornicus> | http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html <--- when you need to write perfect code. |
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| 15:40 | | * ToxicFrog ponders that. |
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| 15:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | (1) is an incredible pain in the ass, but despite that should be standard as it is in digital systems. |
| 15:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | (2) and (3) are, in my experience, standard operating procedure. |
| 15:41 | <@Vornicus> | 3, I've never seen done to nearly the extent suggested. |
| 15:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Maybe not to the same extent, but (3a) is version control and (3b) is bug tracking. |
| 15:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | (1) is, I think, perhaps the most important. It's also the most unpleasant. ;.; |
| 15:43 | <@Reiver> | Which is why it never happens, and coders everywhere botch code. :) |
| 15:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | (hell, func specs are made of woe and spiders, an they're just a pale of shadow of what this describes) |
| 15:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | It does hilight an interesting inconsistency, though. The hardware team has complete blueprints before the first trace is laid. |
| 15:44 | <@Reiver> | Code teams should have the same. |
| 15:44 | <@Reiver> | But they prefer to figure it out as they go... |
| 15:45 | <@Reiver> | ...Or at worst, are simply assumed they will. |
| 15:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, yes. The advantage over the hardware team that this has is that if the program is wrong, we haven't just destroyed N hundreds of dollars worth of hardware. |
| 15:45 | <@Vornicus> | Indeed, modern programming trends aim at fast prototyping and YAGNI - worry about it later, sort of stuff. |
| 15:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | YAGNI? Yet Another ### ### ###? |
| 15:45 | <@Vornicus> | You Aren't Going To Need It |
| 15:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 15:46 | <@Vornicus> | Don't write a line of code until you have a place for it in your system. |
| 15:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. I think what encourages this lack of blueprints is that testing and changing the program is (at least perceptually) free - it costs nothing but time, whereas getting the hardware design wrong means you now have a bunch of expensive paperweights. |
| 15:47 | <@Reiver> | The last article looks at that. |
| 15:47 | <@Vornicus> | --on the other hand, hardware teams have simulators, too - given a blueprint, I can set up a program that pretends it is that blueprint and figures out timing. |
| 15:47 | <@Reiver> | "Just a software problem." |
| 15:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: that, I think, looks at something different. |
| 15:47 | <@Reiver> | Yes and no. |
| 15:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | The general /acceptance/ of poor software. |
| 15:47 | <@Reiver> | "Software can be fixed" |
| 15:47 | <@Reiver> | Is part of the acceptance. |
| 15:47 | <@Vornicus> | That last chunk is "Don't Release Beta Software, You Fucktards" |
| 15:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm, true. |
| 15:47 | <@Reiver> | Vorn: I daresay a space rocket was not running on beta software. |
| 15:48 | <@Reiver> | But I suspect it wasn't written to the NASA standard either. ;) |
| 15:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for blueprint simulators - true. And you can't do that with the software blueprint; you have to actually lay code before you can test it. |
| 15:48 | <@Vornicus> | indeed. |
| 15:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | I suppose it could be argued that the code is the blueprint, and the program/kernel/etc generated from it is the implementation, but I'm not so sure of that; they're the same thing expressed in different forms, which a blueprint is not. |
| 15:49 | <@Reiver> | I don't think normal coders are used to the idea of having blueprints at all. |
| 15:50 | <@Reiver> | I... I really like the idea. |
| 15:50 | <@Vornicus> | Well, we do have a sense of where we want to go |
| 15:50 | <@Reiver> | It seems the best and most logical way to do things. |
| 15:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | They are, just not to the degree of detail of, say, hardware blueprints. |
| 15:50 | <@Reiver> | -- Unfortunately I'm also organisationally impaired, so I can't do it myself to save myself. |
| 15:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Design docs, functional specs -- it's a difference of degree, not kind. |
| 15:50 | <@Vornicus> | And because of the mutability of software, you can change them even after it's all "done". Too bad you're likely to break shit when you do. |
| 15:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | I like the idea too, in theory. However, writing them is a different sack of monkeys. |
| 15:51 | | * ToxicFrog rocks out to the Sonic Heroes soundtrack |
| 15:51 | <@Vornicus> | Right now all I really know about the Geoscape section of XDefense is that it needs a globe. |
| 15:52 | <@Vornicus> | and that it needs buttons. |
| 15:52 | <@Reiver> | I could write up a sort-of spec. |
| 15:52 | <@Reiver> | But I doubt any of us are organised enough to care about working that out until it's done. >.> |
| 15:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | I tend to spec out the design of what I'm writing before I lay code, often in this very channel, but not to blueprint levels of detail. |
| 15:52 | <@Vornicus> | It would be good to know what you want displayed on the geoscape, what layers there are, etc. |
| 15:52 | | Ev3 is now known as Serah |
| 15:53 | <@Vornicus> | if you could slam an approximate list together that would be nice. |
| 15:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which, for that matter, brings me to ResFile. |
| 15:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Operations: load-file save-file add-chunk remove-chunk get-chunk get-comment set-comment |
| 15:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes? |
| 15:54 | <@Vornicus> | Looks good. |
| 15:54 | <@Vornicus> | ...edit-chunk? |
| 15:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Chunks are objects in their own right. |
| 15:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the meaning of "edit" differs depending on the nature of the chunk. |
| 15:55 | <@Vornicus> | ok |
| 15:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thus, altering a chunk is a matter of using get-chunk and modifying the object, or inserting a new object overtop of the old one with add-chunk |
| 15:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. Some way to iterate over all the chunks in a file would be nice too, I think. |
| 15:57 | <@Reiver> | We want: |
| 15:57 | <@Vornicus> | Reiver: Wiki it |
| 15:57 | <@Reiver> | I will |
| 15:57 | <@Reiver> | Radar overlay, which in my opinion should be a sort of shaded circle. How do I describe that? |
| 15:57 | <@Vornicus> | "a shaded circle" |
| 15:57 | <@Reiver> | You know. Like... circles with transparerency. |
| 15:57 | <@Reiver> | OK! |
| 15:57 | <@Vornicus> | If you want a border, say "with a border" |
| 15:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would have said "translucent" mysel |
| 15:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | But either works. |
| 15:59 | <@Reiver> | -- I'm not sure as to borders. |
| 15:59 | <@Reiver> | They sound prettier, but functionally are not needed. |
| 15:59 | <@Vornicus> | It's easier to see where a range ends if it has a border. |
| 16:00 | | * Reiver breaks out his art tool. |
| 16:00 | <@Reiver> | Word, brutha. |
| 16:00 | <@Vornicus> | You and AB, I tell you. |
| 16:00 | <@Vornicus> | Go get Inkscape. It makes SVGs. |
| 16:00 | <@Reiver> | I'd like something better. |
| 16:01 | <@Reiver> | But inkscape sucks balls. |
| 16:01 | <@Reiver> | And doesn't even wash them first. |
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| 16:29 | <@Vornicus> | We really should put together a dedicated wiki and svn. |
| 16:31 | < AnnoDomini> | Oh, speaking of wikis, Vorn. Yours appears to have a bug in the text formatting parser. |
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| 16:31 | <@Vornicus> | Anno: moin sucks. I tried to encourage a move to mediawiki which sucks less, but that didn't end up happening. |
| 16:31 | < AnnoDomini> | Ah. |
| 16:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | But mediawiki sucks also. |
| 16:33 | <@Vornicus> | MCV: not as bad as Moin. |
| 16:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Or at least you'd believe so from wikipedia. Though I've heard they don't actually use an awful lot of the updates and improvements that've been made upstream? Iono. *shrug* |
| 16:34 | <@Vornicus> | Wikipedia is an incredible mess. |
| 16:34 | <@Reiver> | Vorn: Do you still have that wiki of yours? |
| 16:34 | <@Reiver> | We could port what we have over. |
| 16:35 | <@Reiver> | We don't have much yet, so it's safe for the moment. |
| 16:35 | <@Vornicus> | http://vorn.dyndns.org/~vorn/vornwiki |
| 16:35 | <@Vornicus> | oop, I think that's wrong |
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| 16:35 | <@Vornicus> | ...gah, that sorta actually works, which is bad! |
| 16:35 | <@Vornicus> | http://vorn.dyndns.org/vornwiki/Main_Page |
| 16:37 | <@Vornicus> | Though that is way out of date, iirc |
| 16:38 | <@Vornicus> | and does not have all the awesome things that the newest version has |
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| 20:38 | <@Vornicus> | [Thu 13:36:04] MSminion #define five 2+3 |
| 20:38 | <@Vornicus> | [Thu 13:36:11] MSminion #define six 11-five |
| 20:38 | <@Vornicus> | [Thu 13:36:18] MSminion print five*six |
| 20:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's what () are for. |
| 20:40 | <@Vornicus> | yeah |
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| 20:48 | | * AD[Laptop] blinks. That's either a very creative work around to an error I don't see, or something made to break the compiler. |
| 20:49 | < AD[Laptop]> | !roll 2+3*11-2+3 |
| 20:49 | < KarmaBot> | [AD[Laptop]] 2+3*11-2+3 = 36. |
| 20:49 | < AD[Laptop]> | Interesting. |
| 20:51 | <@jerith> | It would appear to be a demonstration on the pitfalls of C preprocessor macros. |
| 20:51 | <@jerith> | s/on/of/ |
| 20:51 | < Attilla> | Depends how you put the brackets |
| 20:51 | < Attilla> | I mean |
| 20:51 | < Attilla> | !roll (2+3)*(11-2+3) |
| 20:51 | < KarmaBot> | [Attilla] (2+3)*(11-2+3) = 60. |
| 20:51 | < Attilla> | Also |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | Attilla: Sure, but in Pi's code there are no brackets. |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | The idea is that each step looks reasonable in isolation. |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | But combine them and they're not. |
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| 20:53 | < Attilla> | True |
| 20:53 | | * Janus concurs. |
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| 20:57 | < Attilla> | So how are you, oh two-faced one |
| 20:59 | < Janus> | Bearing peachs on this branch, sour grapes on that. Yourself, silly hun? |
| 21:00 | < Attilla> | I'm okay, i'm in the calm before the storm. |
| 21:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Attilla: well, properly bracketed it becomes (2+3)*(11-(2+3)) |
| 21:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | And we get the correct answer of 30. |
| 21:02 | < Attilla> | Yeah, I know but messing around with brackets is the spice of life. |
| 21:05 | < AD[Laptop]> | You should learn Lisp, Attilla. :P |
| 22:09 | < MyCatSleeps> | Provided you're not forced into it, you will probably enjoy learning Lisp, Attilla. |
| 22:09 | < MyCatSleeps> | Also, nuts to syntax, precedence rules and all that horsecrap. All hail Lisp and Smalltalk. \o/ |
| 22:15 | < MyCatSleeps> | Oh and Forth. Yay, postfix notation. |
| 22:15 | < Attilla> | Heh. Maybe i'll look it up. |
| 22:15 | <@gnolam> | Just don't go near Common Lisp. |
| 22:16 | <@gnolam> | Choose any other dialect. Just not CL. |
| 22:16 | <@gnolam> | Personally I prefer Scheme. |
| 22:16 | <@McMartin> | Well |
| 22:16 | <@McMartin> | CL is for when you need library support. |
| 22:16 | < MyCatSleeps> | Scheme's good. Common Lisp is large and hairy enough to be useful, at the expense of being large and hairy. |
| 22:16 | <@McMartin> | You only need library support for Lisp when you're a professional Lisp programmer, which you aren't |
| 22:16 | < MyCatSleeps> | How many other widely used dialects are there, anyhoo? |
| 22:17 | <@gnolam> | CL is for when repeatedly pounding yourself in the face with a claw hammer just isn't /enough/. |
| 22:17 | <@McMartin> | CL and Scheme are pretty much it, and Scheme is rarely seen outside of educational contexts. |
| 22:17 | <@McMartin> | Haskell isn't a Lisp dialect. |
| 22:18 | <@gnolam> | Who mentioned Haskell? |
| 22:20 | <@McMartin> | Me. |
| 22:21 | < MyCatSleeps> | McMartin: no it isn't, but then it's somewhat easier to wrap one's head around, albeit less powerful for want of metaprogramming. |
| 22:22 | | * AD[Laptop] waits for McMartin to make a question about Haskell, now that he's predicted to will have be doing it? |
| 22:22 | <@gnolam> | Well, fits into the "rarely seen outside of educational contexts" category. |
| 22:22 | < MyCatSleeps> | And can't HOF usually be optimized down to metaprogramming by partial evaluation? |
| 22:23 | < MyCatSleeps> | ...can it? |
| 22:26 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:27 | | MyCatSleeps is now known as MyCatVerbs |
| 22:28 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 22:37 | | MyCatVerbs is now known as MyCatEats |
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| 22:41 | | MahalSLEP is now known as Mahal |
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| --- Log closed Fri Apr 20 00:00:53 2007 |