| --- Log opened Thu Mar 22 00:00:51 2007 |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://forums.gaspowered.com/viewtopic.php?t=5729 |
| 00:49 | <@Vornicus> | yiboo |
| 00:59 | | ReivClass is now known as Reiver |
| 01:03 | <@Vornicus> | How good /are/ the SupComm AIs? |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pretty good. I can beat them consistently, unlike the Starcraft AIs, but the Starcraft AIs cheated and the SupComm ones don't. |
| 01:10 | <@Vornicus> | wait |
| 01:10 | <@Vornicus> | they don't cheat? |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | No. |
| 01:10 | <@Vornicus> | /miracles/ |
| 01:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, unlike the OTA AIs, they will use nukes, counter-nukes, superunits, and so forth. |
| 01:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | The AI does do some odd things with artillery that look like cheating at first, but this is actually a bug in the unit AI; player-controlled artillery does the same thing. |
| 01:12 | <@Vornicus> | What's the artillery do? |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Prioritizes the most dangerous targets (ACU, other artillery, shields, factories, etc) on radar, even if you haven't scouted to determine which of those identical blips is the high-priority one. |
| 01:13 | <@Vornicus> | oho. |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think this was first reported when someone noticed their Mavor kept firing at the same <unscouted radar return>, which turned out to be the enemy commander. |
| 01:15 | <@McMartin> | Hee |
| 01:15 | <@McMartin> | So, planning on fixing that this summer?~ |
| 01:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | I really don't know. They like me, but it's a logistical nightmare and, potentially, a financial one as well. |
| 01:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | What with them being based in Seattle and me in Guelph. |
| 01:20 | <@McMartin> | True enough. |
| 01:20 | <@McMartin> | How long do you have to decide? |
| 01:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unless they plan on doing it remotely - I know at Bluecoat we have one guy who lives in Toronto and who I've never seen because he phones in to the meetings and uses the VPN for all his work. |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have at least until I hear back from them. Last I heard my resume had been forwarded to the head of coredev with a recommendation. |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, rephrase. |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | As far as talking to them goes, that's at least how long I have. |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | As far as planning my summer, I have until the end of the first week in april. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | The way I figure it'll probably go down is that they won't stun me with large wads of money for a summer internship, at which point I politely decline on the grounds that I need to make tuition for at least one more year and we talk again when I graduate. |
| 01:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | (which still leaves me with a choice between SHODAN and Project Scorpius. Argh.) |
| 01:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | If they do offer a concussive salary, it's agonizing soul-searching time. |
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| 01:24 | <@Vornicus> | "concussive salary" |
| 01:25 | <@Vornicus> | That's a good term. |
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| 03:20 | < Reiver> | TF: The only reason the OTA AIs couldn't use nukes/counternukes was a bug in how buildable weapons worked. |
| 03:20 | < Reiver> | Just for the record. >.> |
| 03:22 | < Reiver> | As for Seattle... pity internships don't pay, eh? >.> |
| 03:22 | <@Derakon> | Internships pay in experience and opportunities. |
| 03:22 | <@Derakon> | And sometimes they actually do pay in money too. |
| 03:22 | <@Derakon> | Or at least a living stipend. |
| 03:23 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, but TF needs to earn living + next year's tuition. |
| 03:23 | <@Derakon> | That's a bit trickier. |
| 03:25 | < Reiver> | Much. |
| 03:25 | < Reiver> | To say nothing of the flight. >.> |
| 03:26 | <@Derakon> | Well, the company usually pays for transportation and housing. |
| 03:26 | <@Derakon> | Hmm...I wonder if my team'll get an intern this year. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | If the company pays for transport and housing I can get by on $4000/mo or so. |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although the logistical difficulties would still be nontrivial. Getting Durandal and Orias to seattle in particular. |
| 03:34 | <@Derakon> | $4000/month? |
| 03:34 | <@Derakon> | What are you *doing*? |
| 03:35 | < Reiver> | Der: He needs to earn tuition, remember? |
| 03:35 | <@Derakon> | Ahh, right. |
| 03:35 | < Reiver> | (Don't ask me how he was earning $4000/mo with a summer job, but I think I want his job.) |
| 03:35 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 03:36 | <@McMartin> | Working for the university tends to make them waive tuition, too |
| 03:36 | <@McMartin> | OK, I'm still in lab, and I should go home. |
| 03:36 | | * McMartin proceeds to do so. |
| 03:36 | <@Derakon> | Seeya in a bit. |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: systems development and large software portability at a company that I've been working summers at since 2001. |
| 03:38 | < Reiver> | That's... wow. |
| 03:38 | < Reiver> | I mean. |
| 03:39 | < Reiver> | US$52k a year equivalent, as a summer job? |
| 03:39 | | * Reiver dies of envy. |
| 03:39 | <@Derakon> | You forgot taxes. |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that's before taxes. |
| 03:39 | <@Derakon> | I think $4k/month equates to a salary of roughly $75k/year. |
| 03:39 | <@Derakon> | Oh, before. |
| 03:39 | < Reiver> | Der: I'll be lucky to make NZ$52k a year once I've graduated. |
| 03:40 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 03:40 | <@Derakon> | Where do you live, TF? |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I note that I worked my way up through the ranks, starting at this company as a web developer when I was still in high school. |
| 03:40 | < Reiver> | TF: That's... still an unholy crapload. O.o |
| 03:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since then I've gone from web dev to admin tool dev to dev tool dev to systems programming. |
| 03:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: Guelph, Ontario. |
| 03:41 | <@Derakon> | Mm. I have no idea what the cost of living is like there. |
| 03:41 | <@Derakon> | For that matter, I've no idea what the cost of living is like in NZ. |
| 03:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Rent here is anywhere from $200-$600/month depending on how nice a place you want and how close to the university. I have a big room in a nice house three blocks away, so it's just under $500. |
| 03:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Food prices are reasonable, public transit is free for university students. |
| 03:42 | <@Derakon> | Not bad. |
| 03:42 | <@Derakon> | I'm paying $1k/month rent, but I live in the middle of downtown. |
| 03:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm quite some distance away from downtown, but within easy walking distance of the university, the grocery store, and the mall. |
| 03:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | And from the university I can take a bus and be downtown in <20 minutes. |
| 03:44 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, I'm getting rather tired of city life. Thing is, my *job* is in the middle of downtown. So either I can live here, suffer, and have an easy commute, or not live here, have a slightly nicer place to live, and suffer a nasty commute. |
| 03:44 | <@Derakon> | You have to go a *long* way away to get vaguely reasonable housing costs, though. |
| 03:47 | | Reiver is now known as ReivOut |
| 03:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | If I work here, I'd either be working on Project Scorpius at Bluecoat, in which case I carpool with Matt, who lives five minutes away and is also on the coredev team. |
| 03:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or on SHODAN at the university, in which case I just walk. |
| 03:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Bluecoat implies carpool rather than bus because it's in the next city over) |
| 03:48 | <@Derakon> | Don't suppose you saw my recent LJ post? ¬.¬ |
| 03:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nyet. |
| 03:48 | <@Derakon> | It's me ranting about what I hate about cities, more or less. |
| 03:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah, yes. |
| 03:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Guelph, while still a city, doesn't really feel like one, at least in the southern areas around the university. |
| 03:51 | <@Derakon> | University towns I can generally handle. |
| 03:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indeed, it's green on satellite view. |
| 03:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the university has an extensive arboretum. |
| 03:51 | <@Derakon> | I'm just really sick of grids, cement, tarmac, and very carefully plantered grass and trees. |
| 03:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | The gardens are small, though. |
| 03:51 | | * Derakon wants a goddamn lawn. |
| 03:52 | < ReivOut> | www.waikato.ac.nz |
| 03:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | We know not of these "grids" you speak of~ |
| 03:52 | <@Derakon> | Streets laid out in grids. |
| 03:52 | < ReivOut> | The bits of our university that aren't grass are lakes. ¬¬ |
| 03:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, yes, I know that. |
| 03:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | But the part of guelph I live in has some bizarre road layouts. |
| 03:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | They aren't quite non-euclidean like some roads in Waterloo, though. |
| 03:52 | < ReivOut> | (Well. There are also concrete walkways and the occasional building too, but it's all mostly grass~) |
| 03:53 | <@Derakon> | What about the roads in the Milkman Conspiracy? ¬.¬ |
| 03:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not quite that bizarre. |
| 03:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | OTOH, milkman conspiracy was euclidean. |
| 03:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | In waterloo, it's possible - I have done this - to start out heading west, turn 270? clockwise and end up heading east. |
| 03:56 | < ReivOut> | |
| 03:57 | < ReivOut> | I think you got a measurement wrong. Somewhere. |
| 04:02 | <@Derakon> | This is Waterloo as in the Psychonauts level? |
| 04:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, as in the city. |
| 04:06 | <@Derakon> | Ah. |
| 04:19 | | * McMartin likes grids because they mean he can navigate. |
| 04:21 | | * ToxicFrog locates blast door, applies head |
| 04:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | WHY |
| 04:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | WHY WHY WHY |
| 04:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | WHYYYYYYYYYYYY |
| 04:21 | <@Derakon> | Fnord. |
| 04:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | do people have such an unhealthy obsession with translating things into XML? |
| 04:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's someone in the "Lua in the console" thread asking for a function to translate UnitBlueprint tables into XML. |
| 04:24 | <@McMartin> | XML is what you translate things from. |
| 04:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 04:25 | <@Stark> | on the other hand if he's trying to import them into another system, he might have an XML setup all ready to go. |
| 04:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | I made a post that can basically be summed up as "they're already in a format which Inherently Superior for both computer and human manipulation; it will take a fucktonne of convincing me that your cause is just before I write this function" |
| 04:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because, well, I could write it in about five minutes, but I wouldn't be able to live with myself afterwards. |
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| 04:30 | <@McMartin> | It should be possible to write a function to dump arbitrary Lua data structures into XML (or as rows in a relational database, even) in like five minutes. |
| 04:30 | <@McMartin> | Lua!Hibernate would be more fun than Lua!XML. |
| 04:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lua!Hibernate is either a five minute project or a three month project that doesn't work, depending on how you define it. |
| 04:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Everything except function closures, threads, and userdata you can trivially persist and restore from inside lua. |
| 04:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | For those latter three, there's an existing library, except that as far as I can tell it DFW on anything but the most trivial test cases. |
| 04:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | It was something I looked into when I was just starting work on libsurtr. |
| 04:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | But, yeah, dumping Lua data structures is just "iterate over this table, using sprintf() and recursive calls to yourself as needed" |
| 04:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | And if you dumped it as a table declaration, restoring it is assert(loadstring("return "..buf))() |
| 04:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | (if you dumped it as a function declaration, you don't even need the "return " on the front, but this only works if you trust the communication channel) |
| 04:38 | <@McMartin> | Hibernate isn't just persistence, it's persistence in a relational database so that you can have other apps play with it too. |
| 04:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, Hibernate is an actual format/library? |
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| 04:41 | | * ToxicFrog looks it up |
| 04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Shiny, but I'm not going to try binding a Java library to Lua. That way lies madness. |
| 04:42 | <@McMartin> | Oh, I didn't mean actually binding Hibernate itself |
| 04:42 | <@McMartin> | I meant "doing what Hibernate does for Java, for Lua" |
| 04:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 04:46 | <@McMartin> | Lua on Lines! |
| 04:47 | <@Stark> | Is there a web framework for Lua? |
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| 15:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus-Latens: as in, a library for building webapps with it? |
| 15:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Probably. |
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| 16:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | How well does Cygwin stack up against MSYS, please? I remember Cygwin being reasonably slow on my crappy old hardware, but can't for the life of me remember what MSYS was like, nor any meaningful comparison 'twixt the two. |
| 16:50 | <@gnolam> | I see no reason to use Cygwin. |
| 16:51 | <@gnolam> | The overhead is... significant. |
| 16:55 | < MyCatVerbs> | Is MSYS friendlier? |
| 16:55 | < MyCatVerbs> | I'm tempted to poke Colinux instead, for the sake of POSIX_ME_HARDER. ¬_¬ |
| 17:04 | <@gnolam> | It's not as bloated. |
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| 17:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Err. |
| 17:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Performance-wise, the Cygwin overhead is negligible. |
| 17:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Install-size-wise, Cygwin is huge; around 1GB fully installed. |
| 17:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Distribution-wise, Cygwin-built programs have cygwin1.dll as a dependency, and possibly some other DLLs depending on what libraries they use. |
| 17:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | The reason for this, however, is that it does an assload more than mingw/msys. |
| 17:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mingw gives you ANSI compatibility; Cygwin gives you POSIX compatibility, along with many, many more tools including an X server. |
| 17:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Basically, Mingw is if you want to write ANSI or w32api code; Cygwin is if you want to write POSIX code, or have a complete set of POSIX tools on a windows machine. |
| 17:24 | <@gnolam> | Unless you really really need X, MSYS will do most everything Cygwin does. |
| 17:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 17:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Except it doesn't come with man or any man pages. |
| 17:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or libreadline. |
| 17:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or libcurses. |
| 17:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or a decent editor. |
| 17:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or any of the image loading/saving libraries. |
| 17:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Etc. |
| 17:26 | <@gnolam> | And all the libraries are available for MinGW. They're just not included by default. |
| 17:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | In fact, it comes with the C and C++ stdlibs, the w32api libraries, and that's pretty much it. |
| 17:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | For values of "available" that mean "you must build them from source, and in some cases patch them to build on windows at all" |
| 17:27 | <@gnolam> | And that has nothing to do with the /environment/. |
| 17:27 | <@gnolam> | Which is the real question of MSYS vs Cygwin. |
| 17:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought we were talking about building stuff using them. |
| 17:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Environment-wise Cygwin brutally destroys MSYS even without X11. |
| 17:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | The lack of man pages alone would be enough to disqualify MSYS, and Cygwin comes with over sixty times as many tools. Even granted that most of them you'll never use, there's a lot of useful stuff in there that MSYS lacks |
| 17:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indeed, I would never want to use MSYS as my environment unless I was extremely short on space and couldn't install Cygwin. |
| 17:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then you add in the fact that Cygwin gives you a free, working, windows native X server and it's just no contest. |
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| 18:55 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: thank you very much. |
| 18:55 | < MyCatVerbs> | Most informative. ^^ |
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| 23:15 | < MyCatVerbs> | Argh, I hate my code already. x_x |
| 23:16 | <@Vornicus> | Been there, done that |
| 23:21 | < MyCatVerbs> | They're not given a return type of void, but "return;" in the middle of a constructor is kosher, isn't it? |
| 23:21 | | * MyCatVerbs cannae remember. Must code more. x_x |
| 23:24 | <@Vornicus> | I don't recall how constructors work in C++. |
| 23:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | Sorry, Java. No worries anyway, I just abused short circuiting. |
| 23:26 | < MyCatVerbs> | Donnie Darko had one Hell of a soundtrack. |
| 23:27 | <@Vornicus> | oh. |
| 23:29 | <@Serah> | Does any of you know how Trillian plugins are written, and wether the IRC plugin is opensource? |
| 23:29 | <@Vornicus> | I don't know, and I doubt it. |
| 23:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Trillian's entirely closed, AFAIK. |
| 23:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | If you want to hack on a decent win32 IM client, try Miranda. |
| 23:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | (GAIM kinda blows on Win32, in my experience) |
| 23:31 | <@Serah> | I want to hack Trillian because I'm tired of people using a broken IRC client. |
| 23:31 | <@Serah> | So I wanted to hack it, and rectify the issue. |
| 23:31 | < MyCatVerbs> | Eh, fuck'em. |
| 23:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | It's not your fault people aren't using Miranda. |
| 23:32 | <@Serah> | I could of course just script my client to ignore anyone using Trillian. |
| 23:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | How many people even do? |
| 23:33 | <@Serah> | Enough to bother me so >_> |
| 23:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | And, no, you couldn't without CTCP VERSIONing every last person you ever talk to, which would kinda be overkill. Sledgehammer, meet walnut. |
| 23:33 | <@Serah> | ^_^ |
| 23:33 | <@Serah> | I could just ctcp version a channel every now and then. |
| 23:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | True. But many channels react aversely to that. I know of a fair few where the ops automatically kick anyone who sends any CTCP message to a whole channel other than ACTION. |
| 23:40 | | * MyCatVerbs found that one out the hard way, using a copy of PuTTY to connect to IRC directly. It turns out that these peoples' scripts get kinda pissy when you misspell a CTCP message. ^^ |
| 23:43 | <@Serah> | CTCP IS NOT AN ACTION! |
| 23:43 | | * Serah bashes MCV with a shovel. |
| 23:44 | <@Serah> | CTCP is a pricmsg with a bit1 markup. |
| 23:44 | <@Serah> | That's it. |
| 23:44 | <@Serah> | And people whose scripts gets pissy should not be allowed to live. |
| 23:44 | <@Serah> | Grr, I hate them. |
| 23:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Um. |
| 23:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | CTCP is not an ACTION; however, ACTION is a CTCP. |
| 23:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | /me translates into CTCP ACTION. |
| 23:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thus, scripts that are designed to respond to channel-wide CTCPs will generally omit ACTION, because channel-wide CTCP ACTIONs are commonplace, unlike VERSION or TIME or what have you. |
| 23:54 | < Doctor_Nick> | oh no burn eden stole 4 of our motherships and blew up remedial's :( |
| --- Log closed Fri Mar 23 00:00:52 2007 |