| --- Log opened Tue Mar 13 00:00:05 2007 |
| --- Day changed Tue Mar 13 2007 |
| 00:00 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, cone3d is love. |
| 00:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: ISTR Tribes 1 and 2 already having this. |
| 00:00 | < Mischief> | Hm? |
| 00:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | And possibly T:V, which is written in Torque. |
| 00:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | In which case this feature may already be present. |
| 00:00 | <@Vornicus> | And then there's Backface Culling, which is "don't render stuff that is facing away from the player" |
| 00:00 | < Mischief> | Eh..? You haven't heard the actle idea yet. |
| 00:00 | < Mischief> | Actual* |
| 00:00 | < Mischief> | Or the mechanics behind it. |
| 00:00 | < Reiver> | AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH! WE ARE *dancing*! |
| 00:00 | <@Vornicus> | Which is technically part of Occlusion Culling, but it's a lot cheaper. |
| 00:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: "infinite terrain, no lag or load times" |
| 00:01 | < Mischief> | Well, Shard attempts to divide the greater map into "Shards" or peices. Think of a big box divided into 6 smaller boxes. |
| 00:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Like I said, Tribes already did this. |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | Mischief: Just saying, the high-level version is established tech. |
| 00:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | So did Strike Force Centauri. |
| 00:01 | <@McMartin> | (So, in a weak way, does Sable) |
| 00:01 | < Mischief> | Bah =P |
| 00:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | It may already be built into the engine you're using. |
| 00:02 | < Mischief> | I have no idea how Torque handles it. |
| 00:02 | <@McMartin> | Sable uses an extensible plasma fractal as a height map. |
| 00:02 | < Mischief> | I know I can keep going on for a while, but I always focus on the mission area |
| 00:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, the "shard" concept sounds similar to how Morrowind and Oblivion handle the world, with "cells" |
| 00:02 | < Mischief> | which is always definedd. |
| 00:02 | < Mischief> | Ah, that may be it then. |
| 00:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Except that's used only to obviate load times and facilitate modding, since they don't include procedural terrain generation. |
| 00:03 | < Mischief> | I'm hoping to compress the textures all while loading. |
| 00:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tribes and SFC do, and I think they also use cells. |
| 00:03 | <@McMartin> | Hell, SotN uses cells. |
| 00:03 | < Mischief> | Well, reinventing the wheel. |
| 00:03 | < Mischief> | I'm just happy to know I'm thinking smart. |
| 00:03 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, they're good things |
| 00:03 | | * Vornicus was going to use cell-like structures in ottd3d. |
| 00:04 | < Mischief> | I'm a little miffed that I had to build my own Bloom code. It'd be less worth it to check it side by side to the code on this site though. |
| 00:04 | < Mischief> | I somewhat know what I'm doing now. |
| 00:04 | <@McMartin> | Depends on your goal. |
| 00:04 | <@McMartin> | You only learn by doing. |
| 00:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: this is why you check the engine docs /before/ writing your nifty new feature~ |
| 00:05 | < Mischief> | It wasn't on the TDN, well, it was, but it said for Synapse Gaming. |
| 00:05 | < Mischief> | Which I didn't think I have, I'm still not sure. But it was on the forums for Torque 1.5 |
| 00:05 | | * MyCatVerbs ponders. |
| 00:05 | < Mischief> | Also, does anyone wanna see the GUi I started making? |
| 00:05 | < MyCatVerbs> | Cellular automata as a terrain generation system? |
| 00:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | I'm thinking Conway, but with something like a thirty-bit state model instead of a one-state, and try to get the simulator to roughly look like a plausible weather-and-plate-tectonics model. |
| 00:07 | <@McMartin> | MCV: It could probably work. I'd guess it would end up reducing to some kind of fractal. |
| 00:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | s/one-state/one-bit/state/ |
| 00:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | ... |
| 00:07 | | * MyCatVerbs slaps himself. |
| 00:08 | <@Vornicus> | Cellular Automata is also how SimCity, SimLife, and SimEarth worked. |
| 00:08 | <@McMartin> | If you want to see work on actual "easy geometric simulation", there's some nice summaries in Game Programming Gems 1. |
| 00:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: yeah, those kinds of models do always seem to have the weakness that, no matter how careful you try to be about the rules, you're almost guaranteed to make an imbalence somewhere and then end up miserable and wondering why all your maps turn out to be huge oceans or something. |
| 00:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oooh, actually, there's a thought. |
| 00:09 | < Mischief> | http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/50734030/ |
| 00:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | Bloody inefficient, but, how about if individual cells made their judgements based on the counts of cells in various states within, say, a six-cell radius of themselves, rather than just the adjacent cells? |
| 00:10 | <@McMartin> | The danger of inefficiency, of course, is that computation causes lag as much as load times do |
| 00:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | That way you could vary the thresholds as terrain generator parameters more and it'd be a lot more, uh, continuous. |
| 00:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: well, it doesn't involve hitting disk. |
| 00:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | So you can get away with more of it. |
| 00:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hrmn, yeah. OTOH, I could stick "System requirements: dual-core CPU" on the back of the box and have things like the terrain generator done in a background thread. |
| 00:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or a sufficiently fast single-core CPU. |
| 00:13 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...true, it's not like we're very often CPU-bound these days anyway. Yay for ridiculously high graphics card budgets. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | (this is code for "if you make your program require dual-core simply because you don't think today's single-cores are fast enough, I will eat your liver") |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | (since that kind of thinking, albeit in reverse, is what got us... |
| 00:18 | | * ToxicFrog blinkblinks |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | UUW doesn't use SVGA, does it. |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | I don't recall. |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | SS1 can. |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think it's 320x240 VGA. |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Dammit. |
| 00:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, yes, I know SS1 can :P |
| 00:18 | <@McMartin> | It's probably 320x200. |
| 00:19 | <@McMartin> | 320x240 is an alien resolution that didn't appear until later. |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is relevant because if UUW uses SVGA, a high-res patch is theoretically possible. But now that I think on it more, it probably doesn't. |
| 00:19 | <@McMartin> | (but why would you want to, lolz) |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indeed, it's hardcoded to one resolution, so definitely more trouble than it's worth. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Especially since the actual problem with UUW is the interface, not the resolution. |
| 00:20 | < Reiver> | UUW? |
| 00:20 | <@Vornicus> | Ultima Underworld |
| 00:21 | <@Vornicus> | From Looking Glass Studios, makers of System Shock. |
| 00:21 | < Reiver> | ok |
| 00:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's Ultima, except it's first-person and underground. |
| 00:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and it's just you rather than a party) |
| 00:21 | < Reiver> | Never played Ultima, so |
| 00:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: that kind of thinking is what got us what, sorry? |
| 00:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | And yes, eventually, I *am* going to ask people to have SMP/CMP machines, plz. It's getting more common by the day and it lets me do both low-latency work and high-throughput work simultaneously on different threads without having to juggle between the two. |
| 00:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: things like SS1, which won't do high-resolution without a patch because the systems of the day couldn't handle it even though the engine could. |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or programs that "require OS/hardware version X or higher", but don't recognize superior stuff made after the program was released. |
| 00:27 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyOut |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | By all means, make it recommended. |
| 00:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...have you ever seen Vangers? |
| 00:28 | < Reiver> | Have you ever seen Heavy Gear 2?~ |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even make the game fail to start unless you set a special option in the config file or something. |
| 00:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Came with features built in (but turned off by default) that never would've worked on the machines of the day. Just wondering. |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: I didn't say that all games were like that. |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Read what I said again. |
| 00:29 | < Reiver> | Which was written to be compatable with Windows 95, but incapable of running on windows 2000, because it requires DirectX $value, and it checked this by looking for where DirectX was installed on Windows 9X boxes? |
| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: yep, that too. |
| 00:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Stuff like this should be warnings, not errors. |
| 00:30 | < Reiver> | It was, apparently, possible to hack things sideways to make it run. |
| 00:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: nununu, I was just mentioning it because I thought you might've found it interesting. |
| 00:30 | < Reiver> | As in, "let's work around all the errors, but not actually have to fix anything!" |
| 00:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | As a contrast, I mean. |
| 00:31 | < Reiver> | (And then XP came out with the emulation thingy and all was well and good. But.) |
| 00:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because, five years ago, when someone's running a system that looks single-core to the software but gives performance equivalent to quadruple opterons, and your program says "error: this program requires multiple cores", what they will read is "error: the developer is an idiot who didn't realize that technology does, in fact, improve" |
| 00:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: 2k actually has the emulation thing too. |
| 00:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | But yes. |
| 00:31 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: ohh, I *see*. |
| 00:32 | < Reiver> | TF: Well, okay, but it appeared to not work. >.> |
| 00:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: I'm sorry, I was thinking, write "needs dual core" on the box and then never, *ever* have the software check up on this. |
| 00:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: just have it spawn its threads and go. |
| 00:32 | < Reiver> | MCV: Then don't write it on the box, because half the people in the world don't read the specs anyway. |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or put it in the recommended specs. |
| 00:33 | < Reiver> | And I was under the impression you were going to be writing optimising code to exploit dual-core by having one core do one thing, the other do the rest? |
| 00:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Reiver: I would contest that. Remember the original Unreal? How many people bought that because their marketing department lied about the sysreqs? |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: generally, though, you don't have that kind of low-level control. |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | You spawn threads and the OS decides which cores they run on. |
| 00:34 | < Reiver> | TF: If you don't, then what's the point of dual-core if you can't say "You do X, you do Y, and everything will run better trust me"? |
| 00:34 | < MyCatVerbs> | Everything *will* run better. Trust your operating system. |
| 00:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reiver: because the OS can, in fact, schedule two threads to run simultaneously. |
| 00:34 | < Reiver> | TF: Yeah, but if it schedules the wrong threads... |
| 00:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | Reiver: it won't. |
| 00:35 | < Reiver> | Or is this a case of 'the big scary thread ends up sitting on one processor once the OS realises it's Bloody Big and shoves the rest on the other'? |
| 00:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | If it does, it's a bug in the operating system and it is Microsoft/Torvalds/McNealy/whoever's problem, not yours. |
| 00:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | Yes. Modern operating systems can schedule threads fairly cleverly and have been able to do so for a while now. |
| 00:36 | < Reiver> | Well, I haven't paid much attention to hardware for a while~ |
| 00:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | So, not attempting to control the details of what threads get put where meself, but just by having one thread run the normal game and another thread that does long-term low priority stuff. |
| 00:36 | < Reiver> | Last time I was properly versed in how computer bits worked together was in the AthlonXP days~ |
| 00:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | Reiver: .? This is more OS theory than hardware work. =) |
| 00:37 | < Reiver> | (Man, I still remember the huge fanfare over when AMD broke the Gigahertz barrier in a desktop PC.) |
| 00:37 | < Reiver> | (I even bought the magazine because it was interesting. >.<) |
| 00:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | And yeah, it basically boils down to, "most operating systems don't suck at SMP because the richest few percentage points of customers like to buy multiple-CPU machines and they want them to *work*" |
| 00:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | Efficiently, even. |
| 00:50 | | * Vornicus tries to figure out how the hell to get what he wants from an imaging library |
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| 01:15 | < Mischief> | #code! |
| 01:15 | < Mischief> | I updated the GUI, wanna see? |
| 01:16 | < Mischief> | http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/50734030/ Bwahahahah! |
| 01:20 | < Mischief> | Blutige Syntax-Störungen... |
| 01:20 | <@Raif> | Ugliest piece of code I've written today: |
| 01:21 | <@Raif> | void (Blargh::*Foo pfn)(TypeFoo) = &ParentClass::FooFunction; if (pfn != NULL) FooFunction(thingum); |
| 01:21 | <@Vornicus> | ;_; |
| 01:21 | <@Raif> | Names changed to protect my job. :P |
| 01:21 | < Reiver> | *wince* |
| 01:21 | < Reiver> | But but but |
| 01:22 | < Reiver> | why? |
| 01:22 | <@Raif> | weak-linking. :) |
| 01:22 | < Reiver> | why? |
| 01:22 | <@Raif> | A particular class was inheriting from ParentClass in an external framework. |
| 01:23 | <@Raif> | That class's constructor called into ParentClass's member functions, and there was a global instance. |
| 01:23 | <@Raif> | Global instances are instantiated before we even hit main, thus the constructor is called and crashes before we hit main... because the framework is gone. |
| 01:24 | <@Raif> | The app is required to be able to hit main without the framework and shout at the user along the lines of "You moved the app, dumbass. Put me back." |
| 01:24 | < Reiver> | ... |
| 01:24 | < Reiver> | I... see. |
| 01:24 | <@Raif> | It wasn't feasible to change the class to something dynamically allocated or reduce the scope, so I had to hack the constructor. |
| 01:25 | <@McMartin> | That doesn't sound too terrible, all told. |
| 01:25 | <@Raif> | BUT! |
| 01:25 | < Reiver> | Indeed. With justification, it's almost forgivable. |
| 01:25 | < Reiver> | Esp. if it's essentially for an error message. |
| 01:25 | <@McMartin> | Needs comments, though. |
| 01:25 | <@Raif> | Here's the problem I've been struggling with all day: How the hell do I pre-empt a non-virtual constructor of said external parent class? |
| 01:25 | <@Raif> | It has lots and lots of documentation. |
| 01:27 | < Mischief> | I wonder what would happen if you didn't do things the code's way, but your own way. Kinda like the code shouting, "You moron, put me back!" but you saying, "No!" And shoving the code where you want it. But the program still works. |
| 01:27 | <@McMartin> | ... how, exactly, is the program finding it? |
| 01:27 | <@Raif> | How is the program finding what? |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | "You moron, put me back" is the app saying "Um, I was looking for main.exe, but main.exe is not, in fact, here. wtf, mate", right? |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | That's not a problem you can solve by yelling at the computer. |
| 01:28 | < Mischief> | In that case, I can't wait for AI. |
| 01:28 | < Mischief> | Where computational analysis can reveal that the program LOOKS for it itself. |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | ... no, you really don't want to do that. |
| 01:28 | < Reiver> | You really don't. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | Win9x does that. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | Its sequels don't. |
| 01:29 | < Mischief> | I said Computational analysis... |
| 01:29 | < Reiver> | Good reasons why not! |
| 01:29 | < Reiver> | Anyhow. |
| 01:29 | < Reiver> | Back to the subject on hand. |
| 01:29 | <@Raif> | It's looking for a framework. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | "Oh, wait, you clicked on a shortcut. Please excuse me while I grind through all 300 gigs of addressable memory." |
| 01:29 | < Mischief> | It would compile the most probable reasons of WHERE Main.exe would be, and if it's the valid program it's indeed looking for. |
| 01:29 | <@Raif> | Which is essentially a DLL, but wich more. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | ... even a human can't do that reliably, Mischief, there's no reason to think a machine could. |
| 01:30 | <@Raif> | *with. |
| 01:30 | <@Raif> | And the DLL's location is hardcoded at link time. |
| 01:30 | < Mischief> | Exactly. But even more so, Enough Analysis for the computer to build its own code |
| 01:30 | < Mischief> | A REAL AI |
| 01:30 | < Mischief> | Without killing itself.. |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | Uh, humans can't program their own brains. |
| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Raif: no, it's not. |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | Nor do they have control over neural rewirings. |
| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Raif: the name is hardcoded. |
| 01:31 | <@Raif> | Frog: True, it's actually embedded as a symlink in the .app. |
| 01:31 | <@Raif> | But as far as the user is concerned after we've distributed the bits, that's hardcoded. |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, the dynamic linker will then look for a DLL with that name in a bunch of places, starting with pwd. |
| 01:31 | < Mischief> | Actually, McMartin... |
| 01:31 | < Mischief> | Memories: Subconcious Programming. |
| 01:31 | < Mischief> | Concentrating: Concious Programming in a limited way |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Raif: windows doesn't use .apps |
| 01:31 | < Reiver> | Mischief? A tip. |
| 01:31 | | * Mischief listens. |
| 01:31 | <@Raif> | Frog: I'm not developing for windows. :) |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then why are you talking about DLLs? |
| 01:32 | <@Raif> | I was describing what a framework is (a .framework is to a .app as a .dll is to a .exe) |
| 01:32 | <@Raif> | More or less, anyway. |
| 01:32 | < Mischief> | Isn't a .dll just a library? |
| 01:32 | < Mischief> | Excuse me for my idiocy If I'm incorrect. |
| 01:32 | <@McMartin> | One that can be replaced after compilation, specifically. |
| 01:32 | <@Raif> | Yes it is. |
| 01:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | One that can be linked to at runtime instead of compile time, but yes. |
| 01:32 | <@McMartin> | It's a kind of library. |
| 01:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Raif: aah. |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | And no, it isn't. |
| 01:33 | <@Raif> | Frameworks contain more than just the shared library, though. |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | A .framework lists the dynamic linking dependencies for the .exe. |
| 01:34 | <@Raif> | Sorta, yeah. |
| 01:34 | <@Raif> | But at external framework can be seperated from the app, hence the problem. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. Yes. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of course, if you're using a decent build system... |
| 01:35 | <@Raif> | Because instead of embedding the framework in the app, because we have 5 apps that share the same frameworks, we've created a pseudo-app that contains a bunch of frameworks and then symlinked to that from within the other .apps. |
| 01:35 | <@Raif> | Which, to me, is perhaps the coolest advertisement for the .app system. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 01:35 | <@Raif> | You essentially end up with 5 .apps (one for each app, obviously), and another folder that hangs out with them. |
| 01:35 | < Mischief> | ... Is there an App that runs on Linux, Mac, and Windows? |
| 01:36 | <@Vornicus> | Where what you /really/ should be doing is taking that framework and installing it in the appropriate place on first run. |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | See, to me, anything that requires you to hard-code your library locations at build time rather than just trusting ld to Do The Right Thing is sick and wrong. |
| 01:36 | <@Raif> | .apps are OSX only. |
| 01:36 | <@Raif> | Vorn: That's being done. |
| 01:36 | <@Raif> | The use scenario is that Dumb Users can drag that app onto the dock. If they miss, in certain situations, it can get moved to the desktop. |
| 01:36 | <@Raif> | This was a common enough scenario that it was deemed we needed to be able to tell the user to stop being stupid. :) |
| 01:37 | <@Vornicus> | Obviously it's not being done, or your app would not break in this situation. |
| 01:37 | <@Raif> | It doesn't in the previous release... this is the next cycle, and as it's only internal we don't have any dumb users encountering the problem. |
| 01:37 | <@Raif> | s/only internal/currently only internal (not released yet)/ |
| 01:38 | <@Raif> | TF: ld is doing its thing, but we have to ship the libraries with the code. |
| 01:39 | <@Raif> | s/code/apps/ |
| 01:39 | <@Raif> | And there's only one place to find them: Wherever we put them. |
| 01:39 | <@Raif> | It's an interesting problem that most people who know how to use a computer don't encounter. |
| 01:39 | <@Raif> | I just thought it worthy of mention. :) |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, on windows ld will look in the app directory first when you run it, and on linux you can package it so that they automatically go into LD_LIBRARY_PATH... |
| 01:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought you could do the latter on OSX as well. |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | I thought OS X defaulted to keeping local copies around within the LD_LIBRARY_PATH, so that you didn't get DLL Hell. |
| 01:42 | < Mischief> | Error 43: Stupid person using Linux, please get the sysadmin |
| 01:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | Mischief: ... |
| 01:43 | | * Mischief blinks. |
| 01:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | Mischief: "Stupid person using Linux" <--- POSIX permissions give you the ability to easily lock peoples' accounts down until all they can do is play pinball. |
| 01:44 | <@Raif> | Frog: The situation is a bit different for this particular set of frameworks/libraries. |
| 01:44 | <@Raif> | But meh. :) |
| 01:44 | <@McMartin> | MCV: That's tricky; allowing 3D display plays merry hell with SELinux. |
| 01:44 | <@Raif> | That's all pretty immaterial to the center of the problem. |
| 01:45 | < MyCatVerbs> | "Stupid person using Linux" only matter if it's, "Stupid person using Linux, with more access than s?he deserves." |
| 01:45 | < Mischief> | It was a joke. With an awkward silence following it. The best kind of joke. |
| 01:46 | < Mischief> | .... Why does this keep happening to me? |
| 01:46 | < Mischief> | Or is it lag? |
| 01:47 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: that's okay. We don't need SElinux, we just turn the permissions on *everything* down to 0770 and put the lusers in the same group as owns absolutely no executables other than pinball. |
| 01:47 | <@Raif> | Murderer. |
| 01:48 | < MyCatVerbs> | Raif: who, me? I'm honoured, but certainly not deserving. |
| 01:48 | <@Raif> | No, Mischief killed the conversation. |
| 01:48 | | ChalcyGone is now known as Chalcedon |
| 01:49 | <@Raif> | Actually, I was pretty much done with it, but it's fun to call him a murderer. |
| 01:50 | < Mischief> | Do I get to be put in the topic? |
| 01:52 | <@Vornicus> | No. |
| 01:55 | < Mischief> | ...Blast! |
| 01:55 | | * Mischief scampes off to his secret hidden lair. |
| 02:25 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 02:25 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
| 02:26 | | Chalcedon [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Chalcy))] |
| 02:26 | | Chalcy is now known as Chalcedon |
| 02:39 | | Derakon [~Derakon@Nightstar-12737.sea2.cablespeed.com] has joined #code |
| 02:40 | < Derakon> | Hrm...Arilou can plausibly work against Chmmr. |
| 02:41 | <@McMartin> | The autolaser just outranges the 'sats, IIRC. |
| 02:41 | < Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 02:44 | < Mischief> | ... We open to our hero, derakon! |
| 02:45 | < Derakon> | Eh? |
| 02:45 | < Mischief> | * He stares across the desolate wastelands, not a tumbleweed rolls by. Pure silence as a hulky man in a torn black cloak approach. He is massive in size. |
| 02:45 | <@McMartin> | Dude, my cloak is beige. |
| 02:45 | < Derakon> | My coat is in perfectly good condition, thank-you! |
| 02:45 | < Derakon> | Also, McM's a stick. And I'm merely standard weight for my height. |
| 02:45 | <@McMartin> | I'm tall, though. |
| 02:46 | < Mischief> | I haven't described you yet, let me finish openning! |
| 02:46 | < Derakon> | ...I want to charm Orz marines with the Syreen. ¬.¬ |
| 02:46 | <@McMartin> | Heh |
| 02:46 | <@McMartin> | zomgnerf, etc. |
| 02:47 | < Mischief> | * They both stop, the man in the black torn cloak, and Derakon. A deafening silence falls between the two... an awkward pause. The scene flashes! The man in the torn trenchcoat pulls out a huge lazer cannon of DEATH, which reveals he's skinnier than though, it was the weapon he was concealing. |
| 02:47 | < Mischief> | thought* |
| 02:48 | < Mischief> | ... That was the openning? WHAT? Do you want me to do the fight scene too? |
| 02:49 | < Derakon> | Is the guy in black supposed to be McM, then? Because he'd totally be carrying an umbrella instead. |
| 02:49 | < Mischief> | The Umbrella shoots lazer beams of death. |
| 02:50 | <@Vornicus> | Tropical lazor beams! |
| 02:50 | < Mischief> | Creative License 101. |
| 02:50 | <@Vornicus> | Lazor beams of love! |
| 02:50 | | * Mischief sits on Vornicus's head, "I know who you REALLY are!" |
| 02:51 | < Mischief> | ... I KNEW who you really were! I thought you had mod status on IRC? |
| 02:51 | | * Derakon replaces one of the Cruisers in his fleet with a Fury. |
| 02:51 | <@McMartin> | The Umbrella is traditionally a mind control device, but whatever. |
| 02:51 | < Derakon> | What's that kind of umbrella called again, McM? |
| 02:51 | < Derakon> | Bumbershoot? |
| 02:51 | <@McMartin> | "Bumbershoot" is really synonymous, these days. |
| 02:51 | | * Mischief peeks at what game Derakon is playing. Plays Chronotrigger - Black Wind Rising OCRemix ver. |
| 02:52 | < Mischief> | chuckshot? |
| 02:52 | <@McMartin> | Back when there was a distinction, bumbershoots are for keeping the water off. |
| 02:52 | <@McMartin> | Der is playing UQM |
| 02:52 | <@McMartin> | Umbrellas = Bumbershoots + Parasols. |
| 02:52 | < Mischief> | Oh! Speaking of outdated games, Is Dwarf Fortress EVER going to be finished? |
| 02:52 | < Mischief> | That game kept me occupied for a whole week, I lost atleast 3 times a day. |
| 02:52 | <@McMartin> | DF isn't outdated, just incompetent. |
| 02:53 | < Mischief> | It got a little boring after a while. But I like games that are oregon-ish trail like.. Or Spore-ish like |
| 02:53 | < Mischief> | Building/Exploring/Travelling games |
| 02:54 | < Mischief> | UQM, beat it. It was fun.. |
| 02:54 | <@McMartin> | 0.6.2 lets you do PvP fleet battles over the Internet. |
| 02:54 | < Mischief> | I can't remember the race, but on pluto. The first other race you see besides humans. |
| 02:54 | <@McMartin> | The Spathi. |
| 02:54 | < Mischief> | YES! |
| 02:54 | < Mischief> | I loved them. |
| 02:54 | < Mischief> | I hated the remixed voices though |
| 02:54 | <@McMartin> | Those are from 1993. |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | The original? Or Remixed? |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | There are no remixed voices. |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | There's only one voice pack. |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | Yes there is, I know there's an extra custom pack that had remixed files |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | That was music. |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | New music, different voice packs |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | There are no official different voice packs. |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | Not official |
| 02:56 | <@McMartin> | There are at least two sets of official music remixes, one from 1993, one from 2002-2005. |
| 02:56 | < Mischief> | I don't think it was. But I'm 100% Sure I had custom voice packs installed after I played the original game |
| 02:56 | | * Derakon kicks butt with the Mnnrhrrm or however you spell it. |
| 02:56 | < Mischief> | I probably had the ones from 1993 |
| 02:56 | < Mischief> | I liked it a lot though |
| 02:56 | < Derakon> | There is the game with no voices at all, Mischief. That's the PC version. And then there is the game with voices. |
| 02:56 | < Mischief> | Eh? |
| 02:56 | < Derakon> | The game originally had no voice acting. |
| 02:56 | < Mischief> | Okay, now you've lost me. I know what I know. |
| 02:57 | < Derakon> | Then they remade it for 3DO and added voice acting. |
| 02:57 | < Mischief> | I heard two versions of the first Spathi talking |
| 02:57 | <@McMartin> | OK, whatever replaced that was something unofficial. |
| 02:57 | < Mischief> | The original, when I installed the game data from download.com... And the other one I downloaded from the patcher or somesuch |
| 02:57 | <@McMartin> | ... no, the voiceovers should have been identitcal in such a case. |
| 02:58 | <@McMartin> | the music may have changed, depending on what you installed. |
| 02:58 | < Mischief> | They were NOT though. o.o; |
| 02:58 | < Mischief> | I'm absolutely positive. |
| 02:59 | < Mischief> | Bah, anyways |
| 02:59 | < Mischief> | Know of any games like DF? |
| 02:59 | < Derakon> | Frickin' computer always brings out the Androsynth when I have my Orz ready. >.< |
| 02:59 | <@McMartin> | spathi*.ogg last had its value changed 4 years and 4 months ago. |
| 02:59 | < Mischief> | Or any games with lots of Precursor Tech, but like Morrowind in a way? |
| 02:59 | <@McMartin> | Nethack? |
| 03:00 | < Mischief> | Er... any others? |
| 03:00 | < Derakon> | I'd suggest Angband, but from what I've heard of DF, not really. |
| 03:00 | < Mischief> | What have you heard of DF? |
| 03:00 | < Mischief> | Besides the steep learning curve? |
| 03:00 | < Derakon> | It's...quirky. |
| 03:00 | <@McMartin> | People ranting at it for days. |
| 03:00 | <@Vornicus> | Dungeon Keeper! |
| 03:00 | | * McMartin heads home |
| 03:00 | < Mischief> | I never ever notice any bugs in games, oddly enough. |
| 03:01 | <@Vornicus> | Mischief: as regards DF, you must be /fucking oblivious/ if you don't notice any bugs there. |
| 03:01 | | * Derakon idly notes how much more effective the Torch's afterburner is when you don't hold down thrust simultaneously. |
| 03:02 | < Mischief> | I guess I am |
| 03:02 | < Mischief> | The only real bugs I noticed was the trapper/crafter thing |
| 03:02 | < Mischief> | And how combat was borked |
| 03:02 | <@Vornicus> | "The world is flooded!" |
| 03:02 | < Mischief> | I never tried that |
| 03:03 | < Reiver> | Der: Yes. The afterburner makes you go faster than the accelerate~ |
| 03:03 | < Reiver> | Which, in fact, slows you down~ |
| 03:03 | < Mischief> | I never made the mistake. |
| 03:03 | | * Reiver has gotten the hang of flying the thing with afterburns only. >.> |
| 03:03 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 03:04 | | Reiver is now known as ReivClass |
| 03:04 | < Derakon> | Hm. Computer sucks at Mrnnrhrmm. |
| 03:05 | | * Vornicus is reminded: Google knows the word "Mmrnmhrm". |
| 03:05 | < Mischief> | What are you murmuring about/ |
| 03:05 | < Derakon> | It's a race name in UQM. |
| 03:06 | < Mischief> | I know. =P It was a pun |
| 03:07 | < Mischief> | You know, in DARKBasic, if you used the ASCII operators descripted in DF's output, you could make a 3D map... |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: WTF DF, it depends on whether you mean fortress mode or adventure mode. |
| 03:09 | < Derakon> | There are entirely too many dialects of Basic. ¬.¬ |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | For fortress mode, try Dungeon Keeper. |
| 03:09 | < Mischief> | Oh! that's what I was thinking... What was it.. |
| 03:09 | < Derakon> | ITYM WRT, TF. |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | For adventure mode, try, well, any of the Roguelikes people have mentioned. |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | WRT, sorry. |
| 03:09 | < Mischief> | I never played Adventure mode |
| 03:09 | < Mischief> | ANIMAL CROSSING, that's it |
| 03:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | In that case, try Dungeon Keeper. |
| 03:09 | < Mischief> | What's Dungeon Keeper?.. Nevermind |
| 03:10 | < Mischief> | I'll google it |
| 03:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which doesn't have as much Stuff, but on the other hand has a usable interface and was created by people who are not, in fact, insane. |
| 03:10 | < Mischief> | ... What fun is that? |
| 03:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, you know those games where you are the intrepid hero, exploring the dungeon and eventually killing the master of evil? |
| 03:10 | < Derakon> | Hrm...for my game, is it worth programmatically generating the collision bitmaps for each frame (based on the pixels' alpha values), or should I force the users to do that for me? |
| 03:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Dungeon Keeper, you're the master of evil setting up a dungeon and killing the heroes who try to raid it. |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: lots of fun. |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Note that I am using "not insane" here as shorthand for "actually have a clue about game design" |
| 03:11 | < Mischief> | Dwarf Fortress is in my list of Best games ever played.. |
| 03:11 | <@Vornicus> | The people of Eversmile are plagued by aching facial muscles. And not anthrax as we had hoped... |
| 03:11 | < Mischief> | And My list of played games.. Well.. It's huge.. |
| 03:11 | < Mischief> | I play almost every game that comes out |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | .............. |
| 03:12 | < Derakon> | You must have a lot of spare time... |
| 03:12 | < Mischief> | ... I studied the anatomy of a bird brain.. |
| 03:12 | < Mischief> | I know Hutchinson's Theory |
| 03:12 | < Mischief> | Hutchinson's Effect. |
| 03:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | So you haven't noticed, say, the fact that the interface is clamped to 80x24, is mostly, but not entirely, missing mouse support, and does not run in tty mode? |
| 03:12 | < Mischief> | I know about Coilguns, Radiation.. Interdimensional Force Theory.. |
| 03:13 | < Mischief> | I haven't. |
| 03:13 | <@Vornicus> | Dungeon Keeper had a /hell/ of an engine. |
| 03:13 | < Mischief> | I didn't care. |
| 03:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | In fact, this game has all the drawbacks of a curses interface - hell, more drawbacks, curses hasn't been limited to 80x24 for, well, ever - with none of the corresponding benefits. |
| 03:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | And this will never be fixed, because the DF creator is a dick. |
| 03:13 | <@Vornicus> | ...I want to /write/ Dungeon Keeper's engine. It is a thing of beauty. |
| 03:14 | < Mischief> | Why Toxic? |
| 03:14 | < Mischief> | I liked DF |
| 03:14 | < Mischief> | By the way, Don't get Starshatter, it sucked. |
| 03:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, it's a fun game, but it's a fun game buried behind a horrible, horrible interface which commits so many crimes against Sweet Mother UI Design that it's a wonder it hasn't spontaneously combusted, in an engine that runs only in graphical mode on windows despite having no excuse whatesoever for this constraint. |
| 03:15 | < Derakon> | Mmm, vitriol. |
| 03:15 | | * Derakon tenderizes steaks on TF's spittle. |
| 03:15 | < Mischief> | .... It came out of nowhere, in ASCII |
| 03:15 | < Mischief> | To me.. That's oldschool and badarse. |
| 03:15 | < Mischief> | And already gets on my goodside. |
| 03:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | The thing is, it's not ASCII. |
| 03:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's openGL/SDL. |
| 03:15 | < Mischief> | That's how it's rendered |
| 03:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, the tiles it uses are created to make it look like ASCII art. |
| 03:15 | < Mischief> | It also exports to ASCII maps. |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, we have all the "old-school" of ASCII art, but with none of the benefits. |
| 03:16 | < Mischief> | I can see why he would do it. |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can't expand the screen area, you can't run it in a tty or on anything but windows... |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | I can't. |
| 03:16 | < Mischief> | Have oyu made a game before? |
| 03:16 | < Mischief> | Do you KNOW how bloody long it takes to make graphics? |
| 03:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're missing my point. |
| 03:16 | < Mischief> | Are you missing mine? |
| 03:17 | < Derakon> | TF's point is that they could have just gone with *actual* ASCII and had a *better* product. |
| 03:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not the fact that it looks like ASCII art I object to. |
| 03:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's the point that he could have: |
| 03:17 | < Mischief> | It's STABLE. |
| 03:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | - used actual curses, and had a better game |
| 03:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | - used the mouse support that is already in the engine, just unused, and had a better game |
| 03:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | - allowed for screengrid sizes greater than 24x80, and had a better game |
| 03:17 | < Mischief> | I think using ASCII would have been more constricting |
| 03:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | - done all of the above |
| 03:18 | < Mischief> | anything ABOUT 24x80 would be stupid in my opinion |
| 03:18 | < Mischief> | above* |
| 03:18 | < Derakon> | I've seen the maps that people've posted. They're huge. |
| 03:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | It would have been more constricting in that it would be moderately more difficult to install new tiles, since you'd have to map them into a font instead of a PNG. |
| 03:18 | < Mischief> | And if you noticed, the Dwarves aren't ASCII |
| 03:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is all. |
| 03:18 | < Derakon> | If I were playing the game, I think I'd want more screen real estate available. |
| 03:18 | < Mischief> | I liked it small, because anything bigger would have been to destracting to me |
| 03:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, yeah, have you actually *played the game*? 24x80, with a third of that used by menus? You can barely see anything!@ |
| 03:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | The maps are thousands of tiles wide! |
| 03:19 | < Mischief> | Toxic, I moved the menus. |
| 03:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fine, that's your choice. Leave it at 80x24. |
| 03:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, people who aren't you would like an interface that doesn't suck. |
| 03:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or, if we do have an interface that sucks, would like to actually have some benefit from that like the ability to run it over SSH. |
| 03:19 | < Mischief> | Actually, it was really rendered at your desired screensize. Just to be a smartarse. But the characters were at that dimension. |
| 03:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | But it can't even do that, because it's not real curses, it's fake curses on top of SDL! |
| 03:20 | < Mischief> | I didn't notice the difference. |
| 03:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yes, I know you can increase the window pixel size, but that doesn't affect the viewport size. Are you actually reading anything I type? |
| 03:20 | < Mischief> | "Extended ASCII character set rendered in 16 colors (including black) as well as 8 background colors (including black)." |
| 03:21 | < Mischief> | IT's also extended. If it was curses, They'd be more restricted |
| 03:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 03:21 | < Mischief> | There. I said it. |
| 03:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Have you ever used curses, or any terminal emulator? |
| 03:21 | < Mischief> | I don't even know what Curses is... Honestly. *sulks off* |
| 03:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Curses, last I checked, does 8-bit characters. You are restricted to whatever characters your terminal is configured to use - and the character set that DF pretends to use is, in fact, one of those - and typically have 8 or 16 each foreground and background colors, but some terms give you more (256 or full 24-bit color) |
| 03:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Curses would be at worst no worse in terms of expressiveness while easily allowing you to run it different sizes and over SSH or telnet connections, and at best would give a much wider range of color, although the range of tiles remains the same. |
| 03:23 | < Mischief> | Idly |
| 03:23 | < Mischief> | Does is 36-bit the current max? |
| 03:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | I would say it would also make it easier to port to other operating systems, but he's already using SDL! There's no fucking excuse! |
| 03:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...current max of what? |
| 03:23 | < Mischief> | Display colors |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | 24bit display colors |
| 03:24 | < Derakon> | Er... |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | 32 bit colors with alpha |
| 03:24 | < Mischief> | 32* My bad. |
| 03:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Barring esoteric display formats, 24-bit - 8 bits per pixel - is the current max. |
| 03:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | 32-bit is 24 bit with 8 bits of alpha. |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | 48/64 if you're using PNG with the 16 bit per channel setup. |
| 03:24 | < Mischief> | Isn't that 32,000,000 colors? |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | But nobody does except people with /really/ fancy image setups. |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | 24 bit is 16,777,216 colors |
| 03:25 | | * Mischief couldn't stand not having Alpha layers. |
| 03:25 | < Mischief> | My desktop is a big 3D cube. |
| 03:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Cubes only give you six vdesks. |
| 03:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is insufficient. |
| 03:26 | < Mischief> | Linux can handle up to 144 isn't it? |
| 03:26 | < Mischief> | I'm really bad at remembering this kinda stuff |
| 03:26 | < Derakon> | Linux can probably handle as many as it's configured to handle. |
| 03:26 | < Derakon> | Or possibly 2^32. |
| 03:27 | < Mischief> | I know there was a max |
| 03:27 | < Mischief> | Anyways, 6 Vdesks is enough for me |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | I saw a 3D mouse, using someone's theory of triangulation. |
| 03:28 | < Mischief> | It can go all three dimensions. |
| 03:28 | < Derakon> | That sounds annoying. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | In the case of Linux, it depends on what window manager you're using, not on the OS itself. |
| 03:29 | < Mischief> | I would imagine it being more reliant on the video card than the OS |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | More accurately, Linux can handle up to 12 text or X11 vttys, and each X11 vtty can handle as many vdesks as the window manager cares to support. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | The video card doesn't come into it, but system memory does. |
| 03:30 | | * Derakon curses the limitations of hardware. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although, in practice, running 10 apps on 10 vdesks isn't noticeably more expensive than running 10 apps on 1 vdesk. |
| 03:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since, in practice, all a vdesk setup really does is keep windows on other desktops outside the viewing area, and move windows around when you switch vdesks. |
| 03:33 | < Mischief> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ODskdEPnQ |
| 03:33 | < Mischief> | THAT'S Cool |
| 03:33 | < Derakon> | McM: where do you put the voice pack? ¬.¬ |
| 03:33 | | * Derakon sees nothing in the downloads section of the site. |
| 03:35 | | ReivClass is now known as Reiver |
| 03:36 | < Mischief> | Now THAT'S a desktop to be proud of |
| 03:37 | < Derakon> | I dunno about you, but I don't have any trouble keeping track of my documents right now. |
| 03:37 | < Derakon> | Something like this would just get in my way. |
| 03:39 | < Mischief> | I think it would be distracting |
| 03:39 | < Mischief> | Which is why I want it. |
| 03:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | That...honestly looks like one of the most useless WMs ever. |
| 03:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: twm. |
| 03:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: fvwm95? |
| 03:44 | | * Vornicus fiddles with image transformation code. |
| 03:54 | < Derakon> | Idly, IMO the Umgah are more villainous than the Kzer-za or Kohr-ah. ¬.¬ |
| 03:56 | <@Vornicus> | heh |
| 03:57 | < Derakon> | Er, okay, I'm fighting an Ilwrath...I think he went into orbit around the planet, 'cause I came to a complete stop and the screen isn't going anywhere. |
| 03:58 | < Reiver> | Wait till he runs out of energy~ |
| 03:58 | < Derakon> | He doesn't. |
| 03:58 | < Derakon> | But I found him anyway, and killed him. |
| 03:58 | < Reiver> | Oh. That's right! |
| 03:58 | <@Vornicus> | Where'd he go? |
| 03:58 | < Derakon> | He just decided to hang out right above the planet. |
| 04:01 | | * Derakon guesses the Pkunk homeworld in one shot. |
| 04:02 | < Mischief> | I have an extremely stupid question |
| 04:02 | < Mischief> | Why can't you run Linux Applications on Windows? I mena, if you have the Linux Source code, can't you just recompile it with Windows Binaries? |
| 04:03 | < Derakon> | You need the libraries. |
| 04:03 | <@Vornicus> | We would no more harm you than we could squish the helpless pootworm. We love the pootworm. We are one with the pootworm. We are one with you! Of course you realize this means you are one with the pootworm. REJOICE! To be one with the pootworm is to be alive, and why not be alive? Is that not what living is for? |
| 04:04 | < MyCatVerbs> | Mischief: you can. |
| 04:04 | < Mischief> | I need new 3D desktop software and I found... http://desk3d.sourceforge.net/index.php |
| 04:04 | < Mischief> | But it's for Linux |
| 04:04 | < MyCatVerbs> | Mischief: with a lot of work. Windows doesn't have certain important and useful features that Unix does and that often become neccessary to get shit done in practice. |
| 04:05 | | * Derakon steals radioactives from the Pkunk. |
| 04:05 | < Derakon> | Who, I'm sure, are fine with that. |
| 04:05 | < MyCatVerbs> | Mischief: the usual solution is to use Cygwin or MSYS. Both are ports of the GCC toolchain and related libraries to Windows. |
| 04:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | Mischief: the *good* solution is to dualboot or run a virtualisation program or something. |
| 04:06 | <@Vornicus> | (and the opposite is true - Windows comes with a built-in HTML renderer, for instance) |
| 04:06 | < Mischief> | After the many years Windows has been out, hasn't anyone included the software for Windows to run Linux programs? |
| 04:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | The *excellent* solution is to say, "fuck Bill," and go penguinite. |
| 04:06 | < Mischief> | Eh.. |
| 04:06 | < Mischief> | I don't like Linux for what I do |
| 04:06 | < Derakon> | Mischief: yes, it's called a virtual Linux installation. |
| 04:06 | < Mischief> | I don't hate bill, really. I just don't care. |
| 04:06 | < Mischief> | I use what works. |
| 04:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | Videogame and watch porn? Linux sucks at the former but is entirely capable of the latter. |
| 04:07 | < Mischief> | All of the above. |
| 04:07 | < Mischief> | I have a Laptop with Windows, A laptop with Linux, A headless server with linux, and a Desktop with Windows. |
| 04:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hell, mplayer on Linux is positively spiffy for playing arbitrarily fucked-up and wierd video formats that silly people use on the internet. |
| 04:08 | < Mischief> | The laptop with Linux has an IR system. |
| 04:08 | < Mischief> | .... I use it for turning on T.Vs... XD |
| 04:08 | < Mischief> | I can virtually turn on, and change the channel of ANY t.v set. |
| 04:10 | < Mischief> | Which helps. Because I lose remotes all the time. But I never lose a 5 lb peice of equipment that's attached to the wall.. |
| 04:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | Unfortunately, you *do* lose the damn laptop battery's capacity. |
| 04:10 | < Mischief> | It lasts 4 hours. |
| 04:10 | < Mischief> | IT's decent. |
| 04:11 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyTaxi |
| 04:11 | < Mischief> | It has two batteries, one of the batteries lost its ability to hold a charge though. |
| 04:11 | <@McMartin> | As long as we're wishing for things, I want a BSD kernel personality for Linux. |
| 04:11 | <@McMartin> | So I can run commandline OS X apps without recompilation. |
| 04:11 | <@Vornicus> | I'd like a pony. |
| 04:11 | < Mischief> | I want Cortona. o.o; |
| 04:11 | | * Mischief stares at everyone else. |
| 04:11 | <@McMartin> | Vornicus: BSD and Linux are at least both fully POSIX~ |
| 04:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | And ponies, as we know, are not even ANSI~ |
| 04:12 | | * Mischief waits patiently for a smart remark at him wanting a female AI. |
| 04:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, is *that* what you meant? Spelling it correctly might have helped. |
| 04:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Never trust an AI named after a sword. |
| 04:13 | < Mischief> | Cortana then? |
| 04:13 | < Mischief> | I spell it the way I say it |
| 04:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...you say it "core-toe-nah", despite the fact that it is not pronounced like that in game, nor spelled like that anywhere? |
| 04:16 | | Mischief [~Mischief@Nightstar-2775.ashbva.adelphia.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 04:17 | <@Pi> | Looks like he couldn't handle your unassailable logic. |
| 04:19 | | * Raif assails it. |
| 04:21 | <@Vornicus> | He's like Bizzaro. |
| 04:33 | | Mischief [~Mischief@Nightstar-23604.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 04:33 | < Mischief> | Fun |
| 04:33 | < Mischief> | My router was disconnected from the downstream network |
| 04:33 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-16868.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 04:39 | < Derakon> | "Are you sure there isn't something you want to say to me?" "Oh. ...uh, no reason. We thought we'd just take this baby out for a little cruise and would you look at where we ended up." |
| 04:40 | < Reiver> | ? |
| 04:40 | < Derakon> | Dialogue options with the Pkunk. |
| 04:41 | < Reiver> | Oh. Heh. |
| 04:45 | < Derakon> | "Without darkness, there is no life. Without death, there is no birth. And thanks to the Ilwrath, there's lots of birth." |
| 04:48 | < Mischief> | Joy.. |
| 04:48 | < Mischief> | Nature's defences kicking in. Population dwindles? What do we do? Have more sex. |
| 04:48 | < Mischief> | Either way, win freaking win. |
| 04:48 | < Derakon> | "Ah, the mysteries of the universe! Try to understand them, but can you? Nope, they're mysteries!" |
| 04:51 | | * Derakon learns The Question. |
| 04:51 | < Reiver> | Pootworms! |
| 04:56 | | * Serah hugs Reiver with impunity. |
| 04:57 | | * Reiver vaugely wonders what happens if you hug without impunity. |
| 04:58 | < Serah> | Crushed ribs? |
| 04:58 | < Reiver> | Hm. |
| 04:58 | < Reiver> | True! |
| 04:58 | < Reiver> | How's you? |
| 05:00 | < Serah> | Going to bed. |
| 05:00 | < Serah> | And I found another M&M group. |
| 05:00 | < Serah> | Fun. |
| 05:00 | < Serah> | They're on a horrible timeslot though. |
| 05:00 | < Serah> | Around now. |
| 05:01 | < Reiver> | Ow. |
| 05:01 | < Reiver> | Still, good luck, hey? |
| 05:01 | < Reiver> | Nini! |
| 05:01 | < Reiver> | (Also I intend to restart that game. Uh. Once I have teh data off my dead computer. >.>) |
| 05:01 | | * Derakon sucks against the Ilwrath. Stupid flamethrowers... |
| 05:01 | < Serah> | Nah, I'm not going to game with thm. |
| 05:01 | < Reiver> | Oh? |
| 05:01 | < Reiver> | You mean general-existance, then? |
| 05:01 | < Serah> | Yes. |
| 05:02 | < Reiver> | Aha. |
| 05:02 | < Reiver> | Very nice. :) |
| 05:02 | < Reiver> | Nini! |
| 05:03 | | * Vornicus tries to remember how he fought the Ilwrath. |
| 05:04 | < Derakon> | Oh, my tactics are sound. They were just incompetently executed. |
| 05:05 | < Reiver> | Ilwrath are cloakers, yes? |
| 05:06 | < Derakon> | Yes. |
| 05:06 | < Reiver> | And thus a pain to kill with the Spathi. |
| 05:06 | < Derakon> | Yes. |
| 05:06 | < Reiver> | ORZ FTW |
| 05:06 | < Reiver> | Turn gun backwards. |
| 05:06 | < Reiver> | Plink away! >.> |
| 05:06 | < Reiver> | And if they think they can decloak, throw a marine at them. |
| 05:06 | < Reiver> | They don't appreciate that. |
| 05:06 | < Reiver> | >.> |
| 05:06 | < Derakon> | The marine will die fast against the flamethrower. |
| 05:07 | < Reiver> | ...True, I suppose, but I usually throw it as a distraction tactic while I shoot it to bits. |
| 05:07 | < Derakon> | Believe it or not, the Cruiser can do decently well by sniping. Other ships like the Druuge or Supox also do well. |
| 05:07 | | * Reiver nod. |
| 05:07 | < Reiver> | You want range. |
| 05:08 | < Derakon> | You also want enough speed to maintain that range. |
| 05:12 | < Reiver> | Thankfully, unlike some of the close range death dudes, the Illwrath are /big/ |
| 05:12 | < Reiver> | This is useful when aiming. ¬¬ |
| 05:13 | < Derakon> | "Now, provided your crew will stop putting their hands out the windows, they will be much better protected against hostile lifeforms." |
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| 05:26 | | Reiver is now known as ReivOut |
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| 05:55 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:07 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 06:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Something I'm failing to understand here, with respect to task scheduling. |
| 06:34 | < MyCatVerbs> | There seems to be lots of research done into variations on heap data structures 'cuz they make various operations - getMin, insert, delete - pretty fast. |
| 06:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | But why would anybody care about the computational complexity of merging two heaps? When do you ever in practice need to merge two priority queues? |
| 06:35 | | Chalcy [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 06:35 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcy] by ChanServ |
| 06:37 | | ChalcyTaxi [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 06:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...though it does seem to make efficient implementations of most other heap manipulation functions almost trivial, hrmn. |
| 06:42 | | MahalWork is now known as Mahal |
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| 08:14 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 08:30 | | Mahal is now known as MahalBedd |
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| 10:20 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[wr0k] |
| 11:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hrmn. What would be a *sane* method of getting 16kbytes of (pseudo) random data out of java? Ideally quickly? |
| 11:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | I am -so- putting this in a background thread. :/ |
| 12:00 | | Reiver [~reiver@LocOp.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Quit: Shutting down to avoid lightning storm woeness. Back tomorrow assuming the house hasn't exploded.] |
| 12:28 | | gnolam [Lenin@Nightstar-13557.8.5.253.se.wasadata.net] has joined #Code |
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| 14:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: /dev/random |
| 15:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: fair enough. I just have to worry about the possibility that someone wants to run the thing on a non-nix box. :/ |
| 15:09 | <@TheWatcher[wr0k]> | java.security.SecureRandom |
| 15:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | ISTR some conversation earlier about Java's built-in random number generator being criminally bad? |
| 15:11 | <@TheWatcher[wr0k]> | That's not the normal one though, that's the crypto-strength one, which I assume is rather better |
| 15:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 15:18 | < MyCatVerbs> | TheWatcher[wr0k] I'm worried about "criminally slow" here, too. I could be burning through something like a hundred kilobytes in the space of a few tens of microseconds. |
| 15:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | Though (I hope) only in short bursts.j |
| 15:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | TW: of course, if it's cryptographically secure, it may end up blocking to gather entropy. |
| 15:31 | <@TheWatcher[wr0k]> | Indeed |
| 15:32 | | * AnnoDomini happily fiddles with logic circuits in MAX+plus II. |
| 15:32 | <@TheWatcher[wr0k]> | But then, so does /dev/random |
| 15:32 | <@TheWatcher[wr0k]> | /dev/urandom won't though |
| 15:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...right. I meant /dev/urandom |
| 15:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | TheWatcher[wr0k]: currently benchmarking /dev/urandom on my machine to see if it'll be fast enough =) |
| 15:34 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 15:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hrmn, urandom only gives out a quarter of a megabyte per second here. |
| 15:43 | | * AnnoDomini mumbles. What the bloody hell would be the name of a 3-controller bit multiplexer? |
| 15:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | AnnoDomini: eight-into-one or one-into-either |
| 15:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | s/either/eight/ |
| 15:44 | < AnnoDomini> | No, no, I mean in the software here. |
| 15:44 | < AnnoDomini> | MUX41 is the name of the two-bit one. |
| 15:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | MUX81. |
| 15:44 | < AnnoDomini> | Tried it. :) |
| 15:45 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm pretty sure it HAS multiplexers other than two-bit ones. |
| 15:45 | < AnnoDomini> | Although I had to produce the one-bit myself, due to the same problem - not knowing the name of the symbol. |
| 15:54 | < AnnoDomini> | Oh, cool. Wikipedia lists integrated circuits that are multiplexers. |
| 16:11 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 17:10 | | gnolam is now known as Ent |
| 17:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 17:34 | | * Vornicus fiddles with map projections. |
| 17:48 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 18:06 | | GeekSoldier [Rob@Nightstar-2947.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #code |
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| 18:11 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
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| 19:14 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyAKL |
| 19:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...does Java have an equivalent to C++'s static class members? |
| 19:20 | | * AnnoDomini rakes memory. |
| 19:20 | < AnnoDomini> | Dunno. The word 'static' is linked to 'final,' somehow, though. |
| 19:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | I know it's ugly and wrong, but I'd like *all* the instantiations of a particular class to share their PRNG ideally without bothering to pass it to the constructor every single time. |
| 19:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...ahh, nah, fuckit. Thread safety for the win. I'll put it in the constructor. |
| 19:28 | | MahalBedd is now known as Mahal |
| 19:30 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 19:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: yes, it's called 'static' |
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| 22:14 | <@McMartin> | If you're worried about /dev/urandom not existing, include a fallback to use Random or SecureRandom. |
| 22:25 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 22:31 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: ah, yes, sensible. Thank you. |
| 22:31 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:36 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| --- Log closed Wed Mar 14 00:00:56 2007 |