| --- Log opened Fri Feb 23 00:00:27 2007 |
| 00:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | My god, unpacking portage takes weeks. |
| 00:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: rather impatient there. |
| 00:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | What're you on? I don't remember it being particularly arduous on a 300MHz SPARC box... |
| 00:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Athlon64 2200+ |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, it's a laptop, which means a slow, low-power-draw hard drive. |
| 00:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | And it consists of billions and billions of tiny files. |
| 00:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | 144,712 to be exact. |
| 00:18 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: tell me you're not using ext3fs for that. |
| 00:18 | < MyCatVerbs> | If you are, it's your own silly damn fault. |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | I am. |
| 00:19 | | * MyCatVerbs blinks. |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | What am I going to use? Reiser? It's still beta. ext2? I don't want to sit through lengthy integrity checks. |
| 00:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | Put /usr/src on a seperate partition and make it reiserfs. Otherwise you're just begging to spend a long time twiddling your thumbs. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and it doesn't go in /usr/src anyways, it goes in /usr/portage) |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bbiab, errands. |
| 00:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | Reiserfs is unstable? My left arse cheek. It's certainly fine enough for a bloody portage tree, which gets wiped out on a regular basis anyway. |
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| 01:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Wow. |
| 01:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Emerge is terrifyingly verbose. |
| 01:18 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: presumably the Gentoo developers don't like to have things break and not be able to track the problem down tightly. |
| 01:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Presumably. |
| 01:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, this means that anything that *isn't* a fatal error is something I will never, ever see. |
| 01:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | I will have to try --quiet next time. |
| 01:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | I hope that's actually quiet, and not silent. |
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| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I note that the default is an amount of output I normally associate with -vv or even --debug) |
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| 02:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: amusingly, genkernel (when installed) gives you a big warning message about how Reiser4 Is Fucking Broken, We Will Not Accept Bug Reports If You Are Using It. |
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| 02:15 | < Ogredude> | oh man, I'm dealing with true genius now |
| 02:16 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: reiserfs == reiser3.6 == well stable. |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 02:16 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: reiser4, yes, isn't stable. It's rather faster, though I certainly wouldn't use it for my root filesystem yet. |
| 02:17 | < Vornicus> | geniuses? |
| 02:17 | < Ogredude> | Got my hands on a mod for SMF that's got a WYSIWYG editor in it... The editor's got this PHP file that lets users upload pictures. |
| 02:17 | < Vornicus> | Oggy! \(^_^)/ |
| 02:18 | < Ogredude> | But the script doesn't authenticate you against SMF; it doesn't check to see if it got called from SMF; it doesn't check the contents of the file, only the extension in the filename; and it picks the directory to upload the file to based on the value of a GET variable in the URL. |
| 02:18 | < Ogredude> | Vorn! \(^.^)/ |
| 02:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 02:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Ok, genkernel DFW, and I can't be arsed to hand-configure my kernel. |
| 02:21 | | * ToxicFrog pokes ubuntu to download faster, takes a moment to kill the ubuntu distributors right in the goddamn face for not having something smaller available |
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| 02:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: a) bittorrent |
| 02:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: b) free |
| 02:24 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: c) it's Ubuntu. This is only the very *beginning* of your disappointment streak. |
| 02:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Heh. |
| 02:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | After Debian and Gentoo it will have a hard time being more disappointing. |
| 02:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | Eh, I rather liked Gentoo for being the only good distro available for SPARC. :/ |
| 02:26 | < Ogredude> | debian ick. |
| 02:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for free - so are Debian and Fedora. They still manage to have support for networked installs, with install discs <50MB. |
| 02:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Debian, in fact, *officially supports* installing right off /boot, and Fedora can do that with some minor adjustments. |
| 02:26 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: see: idiotproofing. |
| 02:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Gentoo has a 50MB "minimal" disc; DSL, the entire system is under 50MB; Arch probably has something similar... |
| 02:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | And if it was idiotproofing, they would offer *one* disc. |
| 02:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Instead they offer three equally bloated, yet different, once. |
| 02:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | *ones. |
| 02:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | mmmph. |
| 02:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Arch is one CD w/ lotsa packages, one "base" CD and one that's marked for FTP installs. |
| 02:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | FTP install == download the packages over FTP after booting from the CD? |
| 02:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Presumably. I've not tried it, so I couldn't tell you. |
| 02:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: Ubuntu also hand out free CDs, they're very commonly given out in CS dept. offices and so on. I think that probably has a lot to do with it - they need to be sure that the full package CDs are damnably well tested so that they'll be safe for newbies with 33.6kbaud modems. |
| 02:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Getting everyone to use full-bloat CDs would be a very effective way of ensuring that. |
| 02:36 | < Ogredude> | ugh |
| 02:40 | < Vornicus> | (personally I think there should be three sizes - a small one that fits on a mini-CD, one that fits on a whole CD, and one that has world + dog on it) |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 02:40 | < Vornicus> | (which comes in CD and DVD versions) |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is in fact how Fedora does it, kind of. |
| 02:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | There's DVD or 4-CD installs, which have everything; just the first CD of those will give you a minimal system; and then there's the small networked install which can go on a miniCD, a USB stick, /boot, etc. |
| 02:41 | < Vornicus> | Though I think I would have two different whole-CD versions - one for desktop and one for server. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ubuntu has one for desktop (liveCD+installer), one for server (installer, no X11) and one for "other" |
| 02:44 | | * Vornicus wonders what "other" is supposed to be. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | The documentation implies that the last of those is also the only one that lets you actually, say, configure your mountpoints. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or set up LVM and RAID. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | As opposed to just doing everything automatically. |
| 02:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and probably not the way you want) |
| 02:52 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: if the luser in question is able to setup LVM on their lonesome, do you really think they need the ultrasimplistic Ubuntu installer? |
| 02:54 | | Mischief [~Mischief@Nightstar-2942.ashbva.adelphia.net] has joined #code |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | Arr~ Does anyone know of a method to convert .lwo to a 3Ds Max 7 format? |
| 02:55 | < Mischief> | ((Which will be further moved to a .dts format)) |
| 02:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | lwo...Lightwave, is that? |
| 02:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | sorry, no idea. |
| 03:00 | | * Mischief nods slowly... |
| 03:00 | < Mischief> | Thanks anyways.. |
| 03:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Someone else might, though. |
| 03:11 | < Mischief> | Anyone else know? |
| 03:11 | | * Mischief is hoping the poly count isn't above 2500. |
| 03:11 | < Mischief> | My game engine can't support datablock objects with that many prims/poly, would kill the systems |
| 03:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | www.3dlinks.com/software_converters.cfm <-- this help at all? |
| 03:29 | | * Mischief clicks. |
| 03:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Argh, what the hell is the difference between "text mode" and "OEM mode"? |
| 03:33 | | * ToxicFrog throttles Ubuntu |
| 03:33 | | * Mischief kills .dts |
| 03:34 | | * Mischief checks the dump file. |
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| 03:47 | < Mischief> | Ah-HAH! Exported |
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| 03:54 | < Mischief> | ..... Well, that didn't work. |
| 03:56 | <@Chalcedon> | MCO, TF, Vorn!! it's finished! I've handed it in! |
| 03:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | YAYE! |
| 03:58 | < Vornicus> | YAY! |
| 03:59 | | * Vornicus feeds Chalcy Filet Stoatnon. |
| 03:59 | | * Chalcedon nrom |
| 03:59 | | * ToxicFrog fluffles Chalcy and gives cookies |
| 03:59 | | * Chalcedon nrom those too |
| 03:59 | < Mischief> | "Warning #101: Config file "dtsScene.cfg" not found." |
| 04:00 | < Mischief> | "Error #1:Nothing to export." |
| 04:07 | < Mischief> | Why the hell is dts-scene missing? |
| 04:09 | | MahalWORK is now known as Mahal |
| 04:10 | < Mischief> | ... Maybe I should give up with 3ds max |
| 04:34 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyAFK |
| 04:46 | | Ogredude-Away is now known as Ogredude |
| 04:47 | | * ToxicFrog eyes the hell out of Ubuntu |
| 04:47 | < Vornicus> | What now? |
| 04:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Does this package manager not know *what version* of packages are available? |
| 04:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Some of them it tells me, others it just says "provided by the Ubuntu community" or "a graphical IRC client" or whatever and doesn't list any version information, nor does it appear to have any way to get at it. |
| 04:50 | < Vornicus> | What package manager? |
| 04:50 | < Mischief> | Ubuntu X! |
| 04:50 | < Vornicus> | because I don't know any that don't list a version somewhere. |
| 04:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | The default Ubuntu graphical one. |
| 04:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | It shows me whether it's installed or not, the name, the icon, and the popularity |
| 04:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | I will grant it, however, that it is faster than yum |
| 04:52 | < Mischief> | Yum != Fast? |
| 04:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | I wonder if xubuntu uses a different one. |
| 04:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mischief: it is not merely not fast, it is the current standard for slowness when it comes to package managers. |
| 04:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | It also only lets you run one instance at a time. |
| 04:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | On the plus side, it has an excellent interface and has yet to plunge me into dependency hell, putting it one up on both Ubuntu's add/remove and apt-get. |
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| 04:59 | < Vornicus> | Synaptic? |
| 04:59 | < Vornicus> | It should have the version number as a column in the packages table. |
| 05:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not synaptic, although synaptic does appear to be installed. |
| 05:00 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: I thought everything on Ubuntu used apt-get as the backend? |
| 05:00 | | * MyCatVerbs gives ChalcyAFK a sorely belated hug. |
| 05:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: yes. However, ubuntu's add/remove is a new and somehow even less useful interface to it. |
| 05:05 | | * MyCatVerbs shrugs. |
| 05:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | The standard method for me to deal with this conversation is to reccommend an operating system that you will never, ever actually use in practice, so that I can attribute the magical and wonderous ability to mysteriously fix all your problems and make your life happier in the process to it. |
| 05:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | Thus, have you ever thought about converting all your machines to Plan 9? |
| 05:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pfft. |
| 05:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | MINIX! |
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| 15:13 | <@jerith> | Any Python gurus around? |
| 15:20 | < GeekSoldier> | I'm a python n00b, sorry. |
| 15:22 | <@jerith> | Don't worry, I've found someone on another network. |
| 15:22 | <@jerith> | This is hairy (to me, at least) metaprogramming stuff. |
| 15:25 | < ToxicFrog> | What is? |
| 15:28 | <@jerith> | http://rafb.net/p/86m4MZ50.html <-- I have this wrapper class. |
| 15:29 | <@jerith> | Now I want to be able to set instance variables on the wrapped class by setting them on the wrapper. |
| 15:58 | <@jerith> | http://rafb.net/p/UrYS7U38.html <-- The solution. |
| 15:58 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 16:41 | | * TheWatcher blarghs, idly notes the lua mode for emacs is crap, pokes at it |
| 16:58 | <@jerith> | TheWatcher: Switch to Python. Emacs has a pretty good Python mode. |
| 16:58 | | * jerith ducks. |
| 16:58 | < TheWatcher> | jerith: tell you what |
| 16:58 | < TheWatcher> | you tell blizzard to switch their scripting engine to python |
| 16:59 | < TheWatcher> | then maybe I'll do it. |
| 16:59 | <@jerith> | Nah, just write a Python interpreter in Lua and run that in their scripting engine... |
| 16:59 | | * jerith heads for the bunker. |
| 17:00 | < TheWatcher> | Alternatively, I could fiddle with the elisp for the lua-mode to make it do what I want :p |
| 17:00 | | * jerith grins. |
| 17:01 | <@jerith> | Then send your hacks upstream to make lua-mode less crap for the rest of us? |
| 17:05 | < TheWatcher> | Mayhap, depend sif they turn out useful |
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| 19:39 | | ServerMode/#code [+ooooo jerith Pi Chalain Mahal ToxicFrog] by DeepThought.NY.US.Nightstar.Net |
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| 22:17 | | * Janus thinks he finally has planar collision down. |
| 22:18 | | * Janus finishes his thesis on the subject, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/tai_ragnarok/intersecks.jpg |
| 22:20 | < GeekSoldier> | I've never visualized collision detection re: dinosaurs wearing EZ-E clocks... |
| 22:20 | | * MyCatVerbs scratches at his noggin. |
| 22:20 | < MyCatVerbs> | The frightening thing is I think I could implement the algorithm from that drawing. Like, right now. o_O |
| 22:21 | < GeekSoldier> | in Intercal? |
| 22:21 | < MyCatVerbs> | GeekSoldier: ?a depend. |
| 22:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | If you allowed me to write a C-to-brainfuck compiler and then a brainfuck-to-intercal compiler, almost. |
| 22:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | On account of Intercal isn't actually deterministic, or guaranteed to actually run any given correct program. |
| 22:22 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 22:23 | < Janus> | Brainfuch's aren't a wise middleman. |
| 22:24 | < MyCatVerbs> | Janus: it'd be easier to implement in intercal than any other given middleman. |
| 22:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | Though yeah, I wouldn't really want to use C as the starting point. Too frisky. |
| 22:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | A B&D language like Pascal might work though. |
| 22:26 | < Janus> | Black&Decker has their own language? :P |
| 22:27 | < MyCatVerbs> | Yes, it's called HAMMER. |
| 22:27 | < GeekSoldier> | I have forgotten most of the pascal I've learned in my life... |
| 22:27 | < GeekSoldier> | sad, that. |
| 22:27 | < MyCatVerbs> | In a similar fashion to other overly-applied languages like C++, it makes the entire universe look like a big set of NAILS. |
| 22:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Not really. Not like it's a good language anyway. |
| 22:29 | | * Janus isn't having much luck with Google. On that note, the Hammer is one badass bowling ball. |
| 22:30 | < GeekSoldier> | use scheme for all your hacking needs!! |
| 22:30 | < GeekSoldier> | (())(((()())()))())!!! |
| 22:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, Intercal is deterministic. |
| 22:35 | < Vornicus-Latens> | For the record, the usual way of doing collision detection between (n)D objects is to break the object into convex pieces and check if those collide. |
| 22:37 | < Janus> | Oui... that sounds considerably tougher. Polygon to polygon? |
| 22:39 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Yes. |
| 22:39 | < Vornicus-Latens> | It's not too hard, really |
| 22:42 | < Vornicus-Latens> | You can use a cross product to determine what side of a line a particular point is on. |
| 22:42 | | * Janus learned cross and dot products just today. Hazzah. |
| 22:42 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Then you just cycle around each polygon testing against the other polygon's points, and if it's on the inside of all the lines, it's inside the polygon. |
| 22:43 | < Vornicus-Latens> | You do have to worry about two things, doing it this way, though |
| 22:43 | < Vornicus-Latens> | 1. it's possible to have polygons intersecting without any points being inside the other - take for instance the Star of David configuration |
| 22:44 | < Janus> | Alright, I can visualize that then. |
| 22:44 | < Vornicus-Latens> | 2. it's a discrete function, so technically it's possible for one poly to pass through the other. |
| 22:45 | < Vornicus-Latens> | (creating a "fall-through" situation) |
| 22:46 | < Janus> | This only happens when there's either a lack of vertices or a weird arrangment of them though, right? |
| 22:48 | < Vornicus-Latens> | The first one can happen if you have a span of vertices on both polys that can cross the other poly without landing any vertices inside. There's a way to fix this, but I don't recall it. |
| 22:49 | < Vornicus-Latens> | (two rectangles can have this happen) |
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| 22:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: there's a feature in some of the later versions which rejects impolite programs, that is, programs with less than one third of their "DO" statments written as "DO PLEASE" or "PLEASE DO." |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: yes. And? |
| 22:51 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: there's another feature, wherein *overly* polite programs are rejected too - that is, programs which use PLEASE for *more* than one third of their DO statements. |
| 22:51 | < Janus> | Perhaps a check on the point in the very center of the polygon? It's not an absolute fix, but it would make it considerably tougher. |
| 22:51 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: there's also a version which randomly (25% chance on each statement) converts "DO" to "DO PLEASE" |
| 22:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm still not seeing how this makes it nondeterministic. |
| 22:51 | < Vornicus-Latens> | ...oh, oh, now I recall |
| 22:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...ok, that is. |
| 22:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, that's not in the spec, AFAIK. |
| 22:52 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: it is now. The current report published on ESR's site has that written in. |
| 22:52 | < MyCatVerbs> | Though I'm not sure if it's listed as required or not. |
| 22:52 | < Vornicus-Latens> | The only surefire way to solve this is to make your physics engine continuous. |
| 22:53 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Though that makes collision detection harder. |
| 22:53 | < MyCatVerbs> | Vornicus-Latens: wow, nice infinitely-fast CPU there, dude. =) |
| 22:54 | < Janus> | I'm not sure I follow... continuous? |
| 22:56 | < MyCatVerbs> | Janus: computes the function for the entire real number set in the relevant interval, not just all the rational numbers. |
| 22:57 | < Vornicus-Latens> | MCV: not quite |
| 22:58 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Instead of saying "is this point inside this polygon?" you say "will this point cross into this polygon over the next 15ms?" |
| 22:59 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh. We have different definitions of "continuous" computer. |
| 22:59 | < Vornicus-Latens> | (indeed, all the rational numbers also requires an infinitely fast computer) |
| 23:00 | < Janus> | Would that mean vectors between the old and new positions of points..? |
| 23:02 | < Vornicus-Latens> | That, or if you want to get really accurate, curves. |
| 23:02 | < Vornicus-Latens> | quadratic at most. |
| 23:03 | < Vornicus-Latens> | (well, okay, if you're doing very-long-term accurate gravitic things you'd need quartics, but) |
| 23:24 | | ReivSLEP is now known as Reiver |
| --- Log closed Sat Feb 24 00:00:27 2007 |