| --- Log opened Thu Jan 25 00:00:47 2007 |
| 00:06 | | MahalOUT is now known as Mahal |
| 00:14 | | * McMartin looks at the new JVM spec. |
| 00:14 | <@McMartin> | "The new verifier does not allow instructions jsr and ret." |
| 00:14 | <@McMartin> | YES |
| 00:15 | | * McMartin does the Dance of Took You Leeging Long Enough, Sun |
| 00:17 | | ChalcyGone [~Chalceon@Nightstar-869.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 00:17 | | ChalcyGone is now known as Chalcedon |
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| 00:21 | <@Vornicus> | ...wait, what? |
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| 00:21 | <@McMartin> | jsr and ret are for implementing "finally". |
| 00:21 | <@Vornicus> | ...how do you call a function without those? |
| 00:22 | <@McMartin> | They do not modify the call stack. |
| 00:22 | <@McMartin> | JSR and RET should not be confused with the INVOKE* and *RETURN instruction families. |
| 00:22 | <@Vornicus> | oh |
| 00:22 | | * Vornicus has never actually read the jvm spec. |
| 00:22 | <@Vornicus> | but... then, how do you do "finally" then? |
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| 00:22 | <@McMartin> | Inline them. |
| 00:23 | <@McMartin> | Which they should have done, like, four years ago. |
| 00:23 | | Chalcy is now known as Chalcedon |
| 00:24 | <@McMartin> | Analyzing Java binaries has just gone from "way easier than raw binaries, but still a pain in the butt" to "trivial". |
| 00:24 | | * ToxicFrog pokes Chalcedon |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | I understand your got the model fixed? |
| 00:24 | <@McMartin> | And for a lot of questions to "it's already been done for you; just read the StackMapTable attribute" |
| 00:24 | | * Chalcedon pokes back |
| 00:24 | | * Chalcedon huhwot? |
| 00:24 | <@Chalcedon> | which model TF? |
| 00:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | The statistical model that was giving you such grief. |
| 00:25 | | * Chalcedon is dealing with lots of models |
| 00:25 | | * Chalcedon tries to remember which model she was moaning about. |
| 00:26 | <@Vornicus> | There was one, iirc, with negative correlation. |
| 00:26 | <@Chalcedon> | negative correlation.... |
| 00:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | The one I'm thinking of is the one that ground the entire thesis to a halt on the basis of not actually matching reality. |
| 00:26 | <@Chalcedon> | this rings bells. |
| 00:27 | <@Chalcedon> | problem is I have so much data I can never remember the specifics of something I was working on a few weeks ago. |
| 00:27 | <@Chalcedon> | was this just before christmas? |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:27 | <@Chalcedon> | I think I sorted that one out. |
| 00:27 | <@Chalcedon> | I cornered the person who originally wrote it and asked some questions. |
| 00:28 | | * Chalcedon contemplates taking a course in programming next year. |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aha |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ooooo |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Give in to the dark side! |
| 00:28 | <@Chalcedon> | it's mostly a question of 'do I have time' not 'do I want to' |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 00:29 | <@Vornicus> | Programming is a very good thing to know how to do |
| 00:29 | <@Chalcedon> | as I discovered :) |
| 00:29 | <@Chalcedon> | problem is, anything I take will probably be C++ |
| 00:30 | <@Chalcedon> | which means starting from scratch |
| 00:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | What is it with universities and using C++ for introductory programming courses? |
| 00:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Have the curriculum designers all had iron bars blown through their heads in freak railway accidents? |
| 00:30 | | * Vornicus doesn't know, would prefer something like Python. |
| 00:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Python would be acceptable. I would personally favour Lua. And Scheme is used to great effect in some universities, like MIT. |
| 00:32 | <@McMartin> | UMAA uses OCaml, IIRC. |
| 00:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, all I can infer from using C++ for an intro to programing course is that they secretly hate the students. |
| 00:32 | <@McMartin> | Haskell is popular in Europe. |
| 00:32 | <@McMartin> | The students? |
| 00:32 | <@McMartin> | They hate the TAs |
| 00:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pfft |
| 00:32 | <@McMartin> | Though maybe their hatred of the TAs is not secret. |
| 00:32 | <@Chalcedon> | they also like to give horribly vague descriptions: This introductory course teaches the fundamental concepts of using and programming computers through practical experience and problem-solving in a high-level language |
| 00:33 | <@Chalcedon> | what is a TA? |
| 00:33 | <@McMartin> | Teaching Assistant. |
| 00:33 | <@Chalcedon> | ah ha. |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | The poor bastards who actually mark the assignments. |
| 00:33 | <@Vornicus> | where "high-level language" in this case actually means "the /second/ closest to the metal" |
| 00:33 | <@McMartin> | The grad student who needs to help students when their shit doesn't work, too. |
| 00:33 | <@Chalcedon> | ah, we call those demonstrators. They're usually grad students. |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: who knows, maybe it really is Python~ |
| 00:33 | <@McMartin> | Because they fucked up pointer arithmetic because they haven't been taught memory models. |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indeed. |
| 00:37 | <@Chalcedon> | my problem is that semester starts the monday after my thesis is due. I'm not exactly going to have a lot of time to think about what and if I want to do any papers. |
| 00:38 | | * Mahal had to learn c++ as her first language |
| 00:38 | <@Chalcedon> | oh well, I ought to get back to work. |
| 00:38 | <@Chalcedon> | Waikato used to teach C++ in first year, now they teach C# |
| 00:38 | <@Vornicus> | On the other hand, /we/ could teach you. |
| 00:38 | < Mahal> | Chalcy, c# at least has the benefit of being industry -useful. |
| 00:39 | < Mahal> | As in, people actually hire people with c# skill. |
| 00:39 | <@Chalcedon> | true, and I'd probably learn better as well. A Uni will give me a bit of paper that employers like though. |
| 00:39 | <@Vornicus> | C# has, as far as I can tell, no actual benefits over Java. |
| 00:39 | < Mahal> | Agreed, Vornicus . |
| 00:39 | < Mahal> | It has the spurious benefit of being M$ preferred though. |
| 00:39 | <@Chalcedon> | I'm not in a position to discuss its merits or lack thereof, I'm afraid. |
| 00:40 | <@Vornicus> | We are. Listen to us. :) |
| 00:41 | <@Chalcedon> | :) |
| 00:42 | <@Chalcedon> | I am listening, only with half an ear though because I need to get this chapter edited. |
| 00:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Mahal: people actually hire people with C++ skill, too, and it has the advantage of working on things that aren't windows. |
| 00:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Such as new operating systems written in C++. |
| 00:48 | | * McMartin pfft |
| 00:49 | <@McMartin> | Incompatibilities between Java 6 and 5 include "Java 6 properly rejects illegal casts" |
| 00:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hee |
| 00:50 | <@McMartin> | Also "Broken code obfuscators that produced illegal binaries that worked anyway probably won't now." |
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| 01:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, you have got to be kidding me! |
| 01:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | The libSDL DocWiki is down! |
| 01:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | I NEED THAT FOR MY ASSIGNMENT, DAMMIT |
| 01:20 | < Janus> | That wiki's been ungodly slow as of late; is it totally down now? |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yep. |
| 01:23 | < Janus> | There's a second place with almost as much info, sans the cool stuff like SDL_ttf and SDL_image. |
| 01:23 | < Janus> | http://docs.mandragor.org/files/Common_libs_documentation/SDL/SDL_Documentation_ project_en/ I think this one either copied the wiki, or the other way around. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | I kind of need SDL_image. |
| 01:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | One of the requirements is the loading and saving of PGM images, and I'll need support for other image formats later. |
| 01:32 | < Janus> | I've never heard of PGM images... I do believe though, that SDL_image doesn't have anything for writing into a format, besides .bmp types. (though, don't quote me on that; I just never found it in the wiki when I looked.) |
| 01:34 | <@McMartin> | .bmp writing is part of SDL proper, not SDL_image. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | PGM stands for Portable GreyMap. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's an 8bpp greyscale format. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the BMP read/write code is in libSDL proper as an example of how to write such things. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | SDL_image expands that to cover an assload of different formats. |
| 01:36 | <@McMartin> | http://jcatki.no-ip.org/SDL_image/ |
| 01:36 | <@McMartin> | SDL_image docs |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. Thank you. |
| 01:37 | < Janus> | I gandered the header of SDL_image, but I didn't see any function dedicated to a .PGM image... |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | Except I see no functions for writing things. |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | Or PGMs. |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | Unless PGMs are secretly XPMs. |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...shiiiit. |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're right. |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | And they aren't. |
| 01:40 | < Janus> | If there's no encryption thingy, or anything like that, couldn't you just write some surface data and pin a .PGM on it? |
| 01:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 01:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Do you understand how images work? |
| 01:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unless your question is "could you write your own PGM saving function" |
| 01:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | In which case the answer is "yes, but I'd rather not" |
| 01:42 | <@McMartin> | Can you borrow somebody else's PGM saving function? |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | If you've coerced the SDL image to have a convenient format, you can just throw it sdlimg->pixels. |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | And in fact the TA has most of one which I can adapt. |
| 01:43 | | * McMartin does this in reverse in Sable to turn PNGs into OpenGL textures. |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | The only parts we're required to write ourselves are the image manipulation functions; code sharing or linking of third-party libraries for image IO is perfectly fine. |
| 01:44 | < Janus> | I'm not too sure of an actual image format, but I know a bit of SDL surfaces. |
| 01:45 | <@McMartin> | image formats tend to involve various forms of compression, so a structure-dump of an SDL_image will basically never work. |
| 01:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Janus: you can't, as a rule, just dump raw surface data to an image. At the very least you have to ensure that it's in the same pixelformat that the image format requires, and write the appropriate headers. |
| 01:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | For compressed image formats - ie, most of them - you also have to compress the data, or at least fake it in such a manner that the decompressor will come up with the right data. |
| 01:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | And some image formats aren't compressed, but don't store the image data in *any* format supported by an SDL_surface - such as ASCII hex digits, or in at least one case, ASCII art with a character-to-RGB palette at the start of the file. |
| 01:46 | <@McMartin> | (p.s., you totally ought to extend SDL_image to do PGM and throw the results to the SDL_image guys) |
| 01:47 | < Janus> | I see, my mistake. I was thinking of .bmp files, and how simple they were. |
| 01:47 | <@McMartin> | BMPs are actually pretty messy too, in their most horrific glory |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even BMP files have headers and come in at least three different pixel formats. |
| 01:47 | <@McMartin> | XPM is the simplest format I know of. |
| 01:48 | <@McMartin> | Its header is the image size, and then it's a paletted-data dump. |
| 01:49 | < Janus> | (by-the-way, what type of pixel manipulations would you be writing?) |
| 01:50 | <@McMartin> | |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Please rephrase your question so that it makes sense. |
| 01:50 | <@McMartin> | Also an "Incompatibility" in JDK6: |
| 01:51 | <@McMartin> | "Password no longer visible in JDK SE tools" |
| 01:51 | <@McMartin> | I don't even want to know under what circumstances that is an incompatibility |
| 01:53 | < Janus> | The image manipulations functions you're to write, what would they do? |
| 01:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Janus: do you mean "what kinds of transforms would I be performing on the pixel format in order to write it to a PGM", or "what image manipulations would I be performing" |
| 01:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 01:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | For this version, rescaling to arbitrary uses using the nearest-pixel, bilinear and bicubic algorithms. |
| 01:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | s/uses/sizes |
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| 01:58 | <@Vornicus> | McM: where is this incompatibilities document? |
| 01:58 | < Janus> | Sounds... like a true assignment alright. |
| 01:59 | <@Vornicus> | ...but not Trilinear? |
| 01:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: we haven't covered trilinear yet. |
| 02:00 | <@Vornicus> | 'k |
| 02:00 | <@Vornicus> | Are you using mipmaps or not? |
| 02:01 | <@McMartin> | Vorn: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/compatibility.html |
| 02:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | We haven't even covered what mipmaps are. |
| 02:03 | <@Vornicus> | Ah |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, since this is image processing and analysis, with emphasis on analysis, we might not be at all. |
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| 10:16 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...hate memory corruption bugs, so fucking much. >_< |
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| 19:07 | | * Chalcedon frowninate at her program |
| 19:08 | < Vornicus> | what's wrong? |
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| 19:09 | < Chalcedon> | it's supposed to parse any text file into a csv |
| 19:09 | < Chalcedon> | currently it is parsing some files and not others |
| 19:09 | < Chalcedon> | last time I used it it worked fine. |
| 19:10 | < Vornicus> | what do you mean parse any text file into a CSV? |
| 19:10 | < Chalcedon> | sorry, I was just re reading that |
| 19:10 | < Chalcedon> | parse a text file, and then write each word into separate csv cells. |
| 19:10 | < Chalcedon> | (so it's supposed to remove blank spaces etc) |
| 19:11 | < Chalcedon> | currently it just runs and wont stop. |
| 19:11 | < Vornicus> | aha. |
| 19:11 | < Vornicus> | you got source? |
| 19:11 | < Chalcedon> | yeah, should I paste in here? |
| 19:11 | < Vornicus> | if so, paste it into http://pastie.caboo.se/ |
| 19:11 | < Chalcedon> | I could paste it on my blog. |
| 19:11 | < Vornicus> | and then paste the link in here. |
| 19:12 | | * Chalcedon frowninate at Vorns link |
| 19:12 | < Chalcedon> | it says Python costs $10 |
| 19:12 | < Chalcedon> | (or is that for something else?) |
| 19:13 | < Vornicus> | Actually that's a bounty. |
| 19:13 | < Vornicus> | For a parser that reads and syntax colors that language. |
| 19:13 | < Chalcedon> | ? |
| 19:13 | < Vornicus> | Write one, you get that much money. |
| 19:13 | < Chalcedon> | aaaaahhhh |
| 19:13 | < Vornicus> | So it won't syntax highlight, but that's okay. |
| 19:14 | < Chalcedon> | what does it do with my code? |
| 19:14 | < Chalcedon> | hang on. |
| 19:14 | < Vornicus> | It creates a webpage with your code on it. |
| 19:15 | < Vornicus> | So that you can paste the link to that page, and paste that instead. |
| 19:15 | < Chalcedon> | ok |
| 19:15 | < Chalcedon> | I found my problem |
| 19:15 | < Chalcedon> | I'd forgotten there was an extra instruction for that type of file. |
| 19:15 | | * Chalcedon thwap self |
| 19:15 | | * Chalcedon hug Vorn |
| 19:16 | < Chalcedon> | I need it for two different things and I haven't used this one for a while. |
| 19:16 | | * Vornicus hug chalcy, gives Stoatherd's Pie. |
| 19:16 | | * Chalcedon cackle, nrom |
| 19:17 | < Chalcedon> | I find half the time just moaning about my problem allows me to find it. |
| 19:17 | < Chalcedon> | maybe it catalyses my thinking |
| 19:17 | | * Chalcedon shrugs, goes back to work. |
| 19:33 | | Serah [~-@87.72.36.ns-26407] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 19:39 | | Serah [~-@87.72.36.ns-26407] has joined #Code |
| 19:42 | | * Vornicus takes one look at JSON and goes ...shiiiiinyyyyyy. |
| 19:50 | < Vornicus> | Okay, Javascript's object system is funky. |
| 19:53 | | * Chalcedon pokes PRESENCE |
| 19:53 | < ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 19:53 | < ToxicFrog> | How so? |
| 19:54 | < Vornicus> | It's... |
| 19:54 | < Vornicus> | it's... |
| 19:54 | < Vornicus> | prototype based. |
| 19:55 | < Vornicus> | and classes are built by /just/ their constructors. |
| 19:56 | < ToxicFrog> | Clarify the latter? |
| 19:56 | < Vornicus> | http://slash7.com/articles/2006/7/26/javascript-boot-camp-tutorial |
| 19:56 | < Vornicus> | I... am not sure how to describe it properly. |
| 19:57 | < Vornicus> | check out the pdf in there; starting about page 40 it talks about objects and classes. |
| 19:57 | < ToxicFrog> | I know how prototype-based OO works, but I don't know what you mean by "built by just their constructors" |
| 19:58 | < Vornicus> | To make a class, you define a function named after the class: |
| 19:58 | < Vornicus> | function Foo() { |
| 19:58 | < Vornicus> | this.bar = 'baz' |
| 19:58 | < Vornicus> | } |
| 19:58 | < Vornicus> | and then to instantiate you say var aFoo = new Foo() |
| 20:00 | < Vornicus> | And then you can extend the class by saying Foo.prototype.prototypevar = 'this variable has been added to the prototype' |
| 20:00 | < Vornicus> | But... |
| 20:00 | < Vornicus> | you can also do Foo.prototype = new Bar |
| 20:00 | < Vornicus> | and Foo now inherits from Bar |
| 20:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah...reading it, it looks kind of nasty. |
| 20:06 | < Vornicus> | I could easily imagine doing some /wackywacky/ shit with that. |
| 20:09 | < ToxicFrog> | Runtime-mutable class trees. Not as useful as they sound. |
| 20:10 | < Chalcedon> | oh bother. I only have 380MB free on C:. o.O |
| 20:11 | < Vornicus> | time to burn & dump |
| 20:12 | < Chalcedon> | mmmm, seems to be. |
| 20:14 | < ToxicFrog> | I'm good on /c and /w, but down to 3GB on /f and 4GB on orias:/static |
| 20:14 | < ToxicFrog> | I need to clean up some stuff. |
| 20:43 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyAFK |
| 21:10 | | * Vornicus currently has about 10GB on his main drive. |
| 21:10 | < Vornicus> | THough I just pulled 5 gig of stuff onto DVDs this past week. |
| 22:06 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-15301.a88-115-211-62.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 22:06 | | ChalcyAFK is now known as Chalcedon |
| 22:17 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-15301.a88-115-211-62.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #code |
| 22:18 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:20 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:15 | | gnolam|away [Lenin@Nightstar-13557.8.5.253.se.wasadata.net] has quit [Quit: ] |
| 23:47 | | AnnoDomini [~farkoff@Nightstar-29095.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Aaaaargh! Madness! "A incesa (the lowest rank in the milatary) that is a 9' pingun made out of elven skin. as you start to exzamin it and you reliaz its actrully a alien space craft made out of hepm and its bruning."] |
| --- Log closed Fri Jan 26 00:00:47 2007 |