| --- Log opened Sun Dec 17 00:00:03 2006 |
| 00:23 | | * EvilDarkLord grnfs at how set! seems to get ignored in a Scheme procedure while set-car! works perfectly well. And set! works fine outside the procedure too. |
| 00:26 | <@EvilDarkLord> | (define (add-binding-to-frame! var val frame) |
| 00:26 | <@EvilDarkLord> | (set! frame |
| 00:26 | <@EvilDarkLord> | (cons (list var val) |
| 00:26 | <@EvilDarkLord> | frame))) |
| 00:26 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Would someone illuminate me on what is wrong with this? |
| 00:28 | <@EvilDarkLord> | (It should be noted that (set! test (cons (list 1 2) test)) works whereas (add-binding-to-frame! 1 2 test) does not.) |
| 00:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | What is set! meant to do? |
| 00:54 | <@EvilDarkLord> | (set variable newvalue) sets the value of variable to newvalue. |
| 00:55 | <@EvilDarkLord> | Err. *set! |
| 01:07 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-15301.a88-115-211-62.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 01:21 | | EvilDarkLord [althalas@Nightstar-15301.a88-115-211-62.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #code |
| 01:22 | | * Janus discovers SDL has built in functions for splitting channels. Cries. |
| 01:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | EvilDarkLord: how does it differ from (define) and (let)? |
| 01:26 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, uh |
| 01:26 | <@Vornicus> | Janus, most of the time, when you encounter a problem that seems like it might possibly be common, it has already been solved for you. |
| 01:27 | < Janus> | Aye... |
| 01:28 | < Janus> | Also, funny math quirk, did you know dividing numbers by decimals less than 1 makes them get /bigger/? |
| 01:29 | <@Vornicus> | GEE |
| 01:29 | <@Reiver> | How many 1/2s go into 1? |
| 01:29 | <@Reiver> | 1 / 1/2 = 2. |
| 01:29 | <@Reiver> | 1 / .5 = 2. |
| 01:29 | <@Reiver> | Um. Where is the jump in logic here? >.> |
| 01:31 | < Janus> | I know, I know. Big 'gotcha' moment when I found that out. D: |
| 01:31 | <@Reiver> | |
| 01:32 | <@Reiver> | I'm pretty sure they explained the concept to us while we were in high school. |
| 01:33 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [No route to host] |
| 01:34 | < Janus> | I wasn't expecting it from a variable though, until I looked at it for a moment. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 01:34 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 01:35 | <@Vornicus> | just keep digging yourself deeper, there, janus |
| 01:36 | | * Janus is soundly defeated. |
| 02:05 | | MyCatOwnz is now known as MyCatEats |
| 02:16 | | MyCatEats is now known as MyCatOwnz |
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| 02:41 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
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| 04:34 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 04:39 | | * Janus is almost out of the woods now, save one small abnormality. |
| 04:40 | < Janus> | May I ask, so far as floating points are concerned, how accurate would an "if(float_point > 0)" statement be in catching that condition..? |
| 04:42 | < MyCatOwnz> | Janus: what condition are you trying to catch? |
| 04:42 | < Janus> | The condition of a floating point variable being greater than zero. |
| 04:43 | <@Vornicus> | 0 is approximately the only number that you can use normally in comparisons involving floating point numbers. |
| 04:48 | < Janus> | I see; some numbers were leaking past it until I changed the statement around. |
| 04:50 | < Janus> | Also... if one were to type cast as floating point like, say, "(int) float_point;", would the integer from it be truncated accurately..? |
| 05:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | It will be truncated, not rounded. |
| 05:05 | < Janus> | That's good then I suppose, thanks~ |
| 05:06 | | * Janus at least knows what not to blame now. |
| 05:27 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25280.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 05:27 | < Takyoji> | What are the possibilities a person across the street in a car to crack into my 128bit wireless encryption? |
| 05:30 | <@Vornicus> | Current estimates give a dedicated hacking tool three minutes. |
| 05:30 | < Takyoji> | Ugh.. |
| 05:30 | < Takyoji> | oh geez |
| 05:31 | | ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@Admin.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 05:34 | < Takyoji> | How do they get through the encryption though? Cracks in the firmware of the router? |
| 05:35 | <@Vornicus> | Weaknesses in the protocol itself. |
| 05:35 | < Takyoji> | oh |
| 05:36 | < Takyoji> | So is it as big as the DVD crack on the internet? |
| 05:36 | <@Vornicus> | probably not. |
| 05:36 | < Takyoji> | oh, less known? |
| 05:36 | <@Vornicus> | no, just less useful. |
| 05:37 | <@Vornicus> | There's /lots/ of unsecured wireless networks out there. Why bother hooking into a secure one when it's mindlessly simple to tap into an open one? |
| 05:38 | < Takyoji> | Just curious about our other neighbor |
| 05:38 | < Takyoji> | Someone tapped into my wireless, and there was a van of 3 guys across the street. Once I banned his MAC address, the car left |
| 05:39 | < Takyoji> | Also, one of the men was the owner of the house they were infront of. And an actual encrypted wireless network just showed up |
| 05:40 | < Takyoji> | So I was thinking of finding that if the owner of the wireless was the possible attack |
| 05:40 | < Takyoji> | attacker* |
| 05:40 | < Takyoji> | A persons MAC address doesn't change right? |
| 05:40 | <@Vornicus> | It's mindlessly simple to spoof a MAC address. |
| 05:40 | < Takyoji> | oh |
| 05:41 | < Takyoji> | Anyway to identify a computer? |
| 05:42 | < Takyoji> | Oh, and there's another neigbor next door that has an unsecured wireless, yet those morons across the street chose mine |
| 05:43 | | Pi [~sysop@Nightstar-6915.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 05:43 | | mode/#code [+o Pi] by ChanServ |
| 05:47 | < Janus> | Hee-hee~ |
| 05:47 | < Janus> | http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/tai_ragnarok/wallyayyaya.jpg |
| 05:48 | <@Vornicus> | It's /walltastic/ |
| 05:49 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: well, there are a couple of ways to get an indestructible WLAN. |
| 05:49 | < Takyoji> | double-encryption? |
| 05:50 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: one is difficult and involves having the thing automatically change its key regularly, with the time intervals set to about half an hour shorter than the time it'd take a fast laptop to brute force the key. |
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| 05:50 | < Janus> | Pi deserves most of the credit; the math would have been impossible without it. |
| 05:51 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: there are two others I can think of offhand which are pretty much trivial if both the machines you're attaching to the wireless access point and the WAP itself are running Unix variants. |
| 05:52 | < MyCatOwnz> | (one of those is probably quite possible with Windows clients too, but would ideally want a Unix server hanging around the place somewhere to provide an endpoint.) |
| 05:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Context? |
| 05:52 | <@Vornicus> | Janus, you've still got some /dev/null along the top edge |
| 05:53 | <@Vornicus> | rather /dev/random |
| 05:55 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: practically uncrackable Wifi. |
| 05:56 | < MyCatOwnz> | Options mentioned thus far: having the keys automatically rotate regularly, with a period slightly shorter than the amount of time it'd take a high-end Core 2 Duo chip to crack one. |
| 05:56 | < Janus> | I'm guessing it's because it's dumping the pixel data at the wrong y-coordinate. Also, that shaded effect happened on accident. It's nice, but it'll have to go eventually~ |
| 05:57 | | * ToxicFrog nods |
| 05:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, using WPA, turning off SSID broadcast and restricting by MAC address as a first line of defence. |
| 05:58 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: yeah, he'd already done that and some random cockwad in a van went to all the trouble of cracking it anyway, despite the presence of several completely unclean networks overlapping his own. |
| 05:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 05:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | Yes, I used the term "cockwad" for a reason. |
| 05:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Wait, so. That would require...sniffing the transmissions to get enough data to crack the WPA key, determining the SSID, and determining and spoofing an appropriate MAC address. |
| 05:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although presumably if you're sniffing anyways that gets you MAC as well, n'est-ce pas? |
| 06:00 | | * ToxicFrog isn't terribly conversant in the arcana of wireless |
| 06:00 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: okay, y'got me. Possibly he only had WEP. But anyway, that's still silly to bother cracking when there's a plaintext network literally next door. |
| 06:00 | < MyCatOwnz> | Anyway. Rather more robust option: disallowing all traffic between hosts on the wifi subnet to external servers except for a single bastion host which is set up as a VPN endpoint. |
| 06:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, yeah, but WEP is so trivially easy to crack these days... |
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| 06:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | And that'll help against people stealing your net connection, but not against people trying to get into the systems on the LAN. |
| 06:01 | < MyCatOwnz> | Largely trivial if all machines are Unix boxen, a little harder (but still eminently possible) for Windowsmachinen. |
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| 06:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean, really, you don't use WEP unless you /want/ people to break in. |
| 06:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because that practically says "I have stuff here I want to protect, but I lack either the software or the knowledge to do so effectively" |
| 06:02 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: he din't say what he was using. Perhaps he has old and crappy hardware and can't afford to buy new shinies, hmmm? |
| 06:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Last I checked, WPA was implemented at the *software* level. |
| 06:03 | < Takyoji> | oh |
| 06:03 | < Takyoji> | Takes more time to install? |
| 06:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...what does? |
| 06:04 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: I've never really checked, but I thought it was done in NIC firmware and occasionally implemented in on-NIC silicon for efficiency? |
| 06:05 | < Takyoji> | I mean >.< |
| 06:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | MCO: WAP appliances might do it that way, but I don't think PC or laptop WNICs generally do. |
| 06:05 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: and providing *only* a VPN endpoint does protect the stuff on the other side of the wired-LAN, though it doesn't help protect the wireless LAN hosts from one another's attacks in any way. |
| 06:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least, WPA will definitely *not* work without a WPA client installed, and AFAIK the client contains the entirety of the WPA parts. |
| 06:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | But, as I said, not my area of expertise. |
| 06:06 | < MyCatOwnz> | Third option... something bizarre involving kerberos that I haven't really thought about yet. |
| 06:07 | < MyCatOwnz> | Totally invincible from everything up to and including orbital laser cannon. |
| 06:07 | < MyCatOwnz> | Difficult to install with all-Unix boxen, near impossible if you want Windowmachinen. |
| 06:07 | | * ToxicFrog idly does some research on WPA |
| 06:08 | < MyCatOwnz> | I'm lazy. Therefore, I'll wait for your results. |
| 06:11 | < MyCatOwnz> | Takyoji: takes more time to install what, sorry? |
| 06:12 | < Takyoji> | I mean.. WPA |
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| 06:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. first of all, WPA does not require firmware implementation; one of the requirements of the standard was that it be backwards compatible with existing network cards, which means it can be (and in these cases, is) implemented entirely in software. |
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| 06:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | The only possible hardware expense would be to upgrade the WAP, if for some reason one has an archaic WAP that neither supports WPA nor can be upgraded to support it. |
| 06:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm doing further research on cracking methods now. |
| 06:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. As for cracking WPA, it basically goes like this: |
| 06:23 | < MyCatOwnz> | Yyyyes? |
| 06:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | - WPA Enterprise is so far uncracked. |
| 06:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | - WPA-PSK can be cracked, via the following method: |
| 06:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | - determine the SSID. This can be done by sniffing. |
| 06:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | - capture a complete four-way handshake. This can also be done by sniffing, provided you're doing so when a WNIC associates with the access point. |
| 06:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | - extract the MIC from the 4WHS (not hard) |
| 06:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | - brute-force the passphrase until you get a matching MIC |
| 06:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Note that using AES rather than TKIP make this much harder, and using a long passphrase (ie, 20+ chars) makes it computationally infeasible in either case. |
| 06:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, provided you're using WPA-E, or WPA-PSK with a long passphrase and, ideally, AES encryption, you should be fine for at least a few years. |
| 06:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | At which point we should hopefully have 802.11i. |
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| 06:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | This implies that if Takyoji's wireless /was/ cracked, either he wasn't using WPA or he was using a weak passphrase. |
| 06:28 | < MyCatOwnz> | I would point and laugh if it were left on a default. |
| 06:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or it was using some other vulnerability that is as yet unknown to me (and to the internet in general), of course. |
| 06:30 | < Takyoji> | WEP encryption |
| 06:30 | < Takyoji> | is what I currently have |
| 06:30 | <@Vornicus> | ...well, there you go then. |
| 06:30 | < Takyoji> | And sorry, I have to leave now, see ya tomorrow |
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| 06:31 | <@Vornicus> | That boy, occasionally, does not compare favorably to a bag of hammers. |
| 06:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Quite so. |
| 06:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indeed, my desire to douse him liberally in flammable liquids and set him aflame grows daily. |
| 06:36 | < MyCatOwnz> | That seems a little harsh. Okay, nobody ever taught him infosec. But he seems to be able to connect concepts that naturally afford connection. |
| 06:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, except for the bit that it appeared to take him half an hour from WEP being mentioned as a possible cause of his problems to actually making the connection. |
| 06:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | And just, well, his general approach. |
| 06:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which mainly seems to be "ask #code for random httpd-related tech support that is answered in the first page of the FAQ" |
| 06:40 | | * MyCatOwnz rereads a little of the backscroll. |
| 06:41 | < MyCatOwnz> | Okay, I'ma revise that to, "ever so slightly harsh." |
| 06:41 | < MyCatOwnz> | Possibly braindead, but not *quite* ready to be used as firewood substitute (yet). |
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| 08:09 | <@jerith> | But only because human flesh does not actually burn very nicely. |
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| 11:47 | <@jerith> | Does anyone have a SQL incantation for "give me all the rows timestamped in the last n {minutes,hours}"? |
| 11:48 | <@jerith> | I know it can be done (because I've seen it before) but I'm not sure exactly how. |
| 11:48 | <@jerith> | MySQL, if it makes a difference. |
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| 14:55 | < MyCatOwnz> | Methinks you need to use a TIMESTAMP column in your table... aaaand, if you give that column the clauses "DEFAULT CURRENT_TIMESTAMP" and "ON UPDATE CURRENT_TIMESTAMP" |
| 14:56 | < MyCatOwnz> | ...then it should work! But I'd be amazed if the SQL server was burning RAM and disk space on storing timestamp data for tables which you hadn't asked for it on. |
| 15:03 | < MyCatOwnz> | ...hmmmm. More unpatched Word flaws dug up. |
| 15:33 | <@jerith> | I'd forgotten I asked that in here, actually. |
| 15:34 | <@jerith> | select * from log where timestamp >= now() - interval 70 minute; |
| 15:35 | < MyCatOwnz> | jerith: it adds a timestamp record automatically? |
| 15:35 | <@jerith> | No, I add one by hand. |
| 15:35 | <@jerith> | It contains the conferencebot's timestamp. |
| 15:41 | < MyCatOwnz> | Ah. I thought you needed to do it with an existing recordset (meaning you'd have been boned). :/ |
| 15:45 | | * jerith nods. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Dec 18 00:00:25 2006 |