| --- Log opened Sun Nov 26 00:00:29 2006 |
| 00:00 | < AnnoDomini> | Right. So we agree on that method of conversion between the two encodings? |
| 00:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:01 | < AnnoDomini> | Right. If I convert two at once, I negate them both and add 10. Correct? |
| 00:01 | < AnnoDomini> | I mean... |
| 00:01 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm supposed to add them up. |
| 00:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Right. |
| 00:02 | < AnnoDomini> | First I negate, add them. Then I add 10. |
| 00:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | First you negate each one and add 1 to it, then add them together. |
| 00:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although the other method might work. Hmm. |
| 00:03 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm using addition properties. |
| 00:03 | < AnnoDomini> | Not entirely sure they apply here. |
| 00:04 | < AnnoDomini> | Anyway. I'm getting the correct output, so I guess I haven't screwed anything up. |
| 00:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I think invert-sum-add_10 will behave the same as invert-add_1-sum. |
| 00:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | But I can't prove it,. |
| 00:06 | < AnnoDomini> | Am I correct to assume that I won't get outside of a six-bit number on the output here? |
| 00:10 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmm. |
| 00:10 | < AnnoDomini> | There might be a seven-bit one, right? |
| 00:13 | < AnnoDomini> | If I specify 10000 as an input, I'd get 11111, plus 1 that's 100000, and twice that is 1000000. |
| 00:13 | < AnnoDomini> | Now, my original injuiry. Which of these fuskers is the sign bit now? |
| 00:15 | < AnnoDomini> | *inquiry |
| 00:16 | < AnnoDomini> | Hello? |
| 00:17 | < EvilDarkLord> | I suggest waiting a moment, someone usually gets around to answering once they see it and can think of something. |
| 00:17 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm not going anywhere. |
| 00:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sorry, was generating base-3 permutations. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | And you aren't going to get any 7-digit results. |
| 00:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | When doing the two's complement conversion, you discard the carry bit. |
| 00:20 | < AnnoDomini> | Right. The seventh is going to the void of space. |
| 00:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, 10000 (not ->) 11111 (+1 ->) 00000 |
| 00:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | The output will be six bits, including the carry bit. |
| 00:23 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmmm. |
| 00:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is to say, basically what you're doing here is a 5-bit adder. |
| 00:24 | < AnnoDomini> | I ought to do this (NOT->+1)+(NOT->+1), what with the carry bit being gone. |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | All the conversion before and after is just window dressing. |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, you're adding two 5-bit two's-complement binary numbers. |
| 00:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | The output will be six bits - five "real" bits and the carry bit. |
| 00:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | As to question of which one is now the sign bit - the carry bit is. |
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| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | In effect, you're adding two 5-bit 2C numbers to get one 6-bit 2C numbers with the carry bit as the MSB, which also makes it the sign bit. |
| 00:29 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Code |
| 00:31 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25280.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 00:31 | < Takyoji> | how do I use the SSH of my website? |
| 00:31 | < Takyoji> | I need Unix/Linux, right? |
| 00:32 | < EvilDarkLord> | Um. PuTTY? |
| 00:33 | < Takyoji> | Which is? |
| 00:33 | < EvilDarkLord> | A program I use on Windows for SSH. |
| 00:33 | < Takyoji> | oh k |
| 00:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | PuTTY is a good choice. If you have Cygwin, it comes with OpenSSH. There's probably a windows native build of OpenSSH as well. And there's Filezilla if you only need SFTP and not an actual shell. Etc. |
| 00:38 | < Takyoji> | I know I may sound dumber than a doorknob but, what is SSH exactly? |
| 00:40 | < Takyoji> | I understand that is partially a way to remote access a webserver, but what is the primary purpose? |
| 00:40 | < Takyoji> | remotely* |
| 00:40 | < EvilDarkLord> | Being secure while doing it? |
| 00:40 | < Takyoji> | ohh |
| 00:41 | < EvilDarkLord> | SSH = Secure Shell :) |
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| 00:41 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 00:41 | < Takyoji> | So that nobody can see the data being transfered to thewebsite when I'm working on it |
| 00:41 | < Takyoji> | correct? |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Including things like, say, your password. |
| 00:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | To massively oversimplify, it's encrypted telnet. |
| 00:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is a massive oversimplification because it also has a bunch of features telnet doesn't, like tunneling, file transfer support, and the like. |
| 00:48 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 00:52 | | * AnnoDomini grrrrs. |
| 00:53 | <@Mahal> | Are we speaking of SSH? |
| 00:53 | < EvilDarkLord> | We are. |
| 00:53 | < AnnoDomini> | Adding 11111 (-15) and 01110 (+4), I get 011111. |
| 00:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Indeed. |
| 00:53 | < MyCatOwnz> | But SSH is not grrrrrr worthy! Perhaps Anno is referring to, uh, CIFS? |
| 00:54 | < EvilDarkLord> | Anno is referring to adding bits, I believe. |
| 00:54 | < AnnoDomini> | *+14, there. |
| 00:54 | < AnnoDomini> | The sign bit, the sixth one, is empty, and therefore the back conversion is not happening. |
| 00:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | You should get 101101 |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...wait, no |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Goddamit, where's my notepad |
| 00:55 | < MyCatOwnz> | How wide is the data field? |
| 00:55 | < AnnoDomini> | 10001+01110+00001=11111, IIRC. |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Where's the 00001 come from? |
| 00:55 | < MyCatOwnz> | 'Cuz I'm pretty certain that 11111 ain't -15 for five bits or for six. Are you sane? |
| 00:56 | < AnnoDomini> | Wait... without that 1. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...yeah, MCO's right. |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | 11111 is -1. |
| 00:56 | < AnnoDomini> | In that case, 11111 is -1111. |
| 00:56 | < MyCatOwnz> | AnnoDomini: What bloody number size are you using? |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...are you talking two's complement or sign-magnitude? |
| 00:57 | < MyCatOwnz> | Four bits? Five? Six? Eight? |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because it's -1111 in sign-magnitude, and -1 in two's-complement. |
| 00:57 | < AnnoDomini> | Five. I think. |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the adder works in two's-complement. |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Five. |
| 00:57 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: two's complement is delicious. |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | MCO: Yes. |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | AD is writing this bizarre adder that takes input and output as sign-magnitude but works internally as two's-complement. |
| 00:58 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: ahhhh, I see. |
| 00:58 | < MyCatOwnz> | AnnoDomini: WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH YOUR NOODLES? |
| 00:58 | < AnnoDomini> | WHY THE HELL ARE YOU SHOUTING?! |
| 00:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | AnnoDomini: 'cuz I'm drunk. Also, things seem funnier at this time of the morning. |
| 00:59 | < EvilDarkLord> | You're European, MCO? |
| 00:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | AnnoDomini: to quote some random Korean Starcraft player's philosophy on Life, the Universe and Everything:- "Kekekekeke!" |
| 00:59 | < AnnoDomini> | Right. 10001+01110=11111. OR am I mistaken here? |
| 00:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | EvilDarkLord: mmmmmyyyyup, It's 1AM. |
| 00:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | AD: correct. |
| 00:59 | < MyCatOwnz> | EvilDarkLord: British, to be precise. |
| 01:00 | < AnnoDomini> | Over here is 2, and over at EDL's it's 3. |
| 01:00 | < Janus> | I think he was refering to the drunkness instead of the time. |
| 01:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | AnnoDomini: remind me what numbers you were adding again, and what the answer was? |
| 01:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm lost agian. |
| 01:01 | < EvilDarkLord> | No, I was referring to the time. Or were you referring to someone else? :p |
| 01:01 | < AnnoDomini> | -15+14=-1. |
| 01:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Right. |
| 01:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Except in binary. |
| 01:01 | < MyCatOwnz> | Janus: oh, well, in that case: drunk! I have a low alcohol tolerance. And I had some absolutely *awful* cider tonight. |
| 01:01 | < MyCatOwnz> | Janus: tasted like somebody peed in a glass, honestly. |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | You were using sign-magnitude, and putting in 11111 and 01110, yes? |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...oh, shit. |
| 01:02 | < AnnoDomini> | 10001+01110=011111 (All this is 2C.) |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're right. |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | The carry bit doesn't go high but it's still negative. |
| 01:02 | < AnnoDomini> | What now? |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Give me a minute. |
| 01:04 | < AnnoDomini> | Got lots of time. I don't think I'll sleep tonight. Still got padding for my NaNo to write, aside from this thing. |
| 01:05 | < Janus> | Cider that tastes like pee... Maybe you're just experiencing a tummy ache. |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, the 5th bit - the MSB that is not the carry bit, that is - is the sign bit. |
| 01:05 | < AnnoDomini> | Okay. |
| 01:05 | < AnnoDomini> | Will it always be the sign bit? |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | The carry bit does have some useful properties in this context, but I'm too tired to remember what they are right now. |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, just out of morbid curiosity - why are you taking input and output in sign-magnitude? Is it part of the requirements? |
| 01:07 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: you can make a few additive algorithms faster using it. Also, it makes it easy (I think) to detect conditions like overflow in unsigned integers. |
| 01:08 | < AnnoDomini> | ToxicFrog: I was under the impression that it's the way it should be done. |
| 01:08 | < AnnoDomini> | The problem description is very vague... |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | AD: two's-complement is much easier to work with, which is the reason it's used internally in basically all modern computer systems. |
| 01:09 | < AnnoDomini> | "Build a circuit for subtraction of two four-bit integers." |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're right, that is vague. |
| 01:10 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm basing this off of the example, which took two natural numbers and added them, using either one's or two's complement. |
| 01:10 | < AnnoDomini> | But the input and output were always sign-magnitude. |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'd interpret that as for 4-bit, two's-complement - that is to say, the input to the circuit is two 4-bit numbers, the input to the adder is A,(¬B +1), and the output of the adder is a 4-bit two's-complement and a carry bit. |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ick. |
| 01:13 | < AnnoDomini> | The problem with the fifth bit being the sign bit, is that... |
| 01:13 | < MyCatOwnz> | AnnoDomini: what do you have to provide the answer in, a circuit design? |
| 01:13 | < AnnoDomini> | What about things like, say, -15-15=-30? |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | A drawn logic schematic. |
| 01:13 | < AnnoDomini> | MyCatOwnz: An Electronics Workbench file. |
| 01:13 | < MyCatOwnz> | Oh, easy. |
| 01:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | AD: it underflows. |
| 01:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | You get +14. |
| 01:14 | | * AnnoDomini doesn't understand. |
| 01:14 | < MyCatOwnz> | AnnoDomini: it underflows. It won't fit in the range and hence you're not *expected* to produce a non-silly output. |
| 01:14 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm supposed to produce a non-silly output. |
| 01:15 | < MyCatOwnz> | Either you need to output integers that're one bit wider than the inputs or you need to accept that for certain answers, you'll produce a silly answer. |
| 01:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Actually, if you're using two's-complement, it underflows and you get 2. |
| 01:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | AD: that's what the carry bit is for, then. |
| 01:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think. |
| 01:15 | < MyCatOwnz> | If you absolutely have to provide the answer at the same number of bits as the input, then you're going to have to have some silly outputs. That's mathematically neccessary. |
| 01:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | Since you're converting to sign-magnitude, this is kind of whack. |
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| 01:17 | < AnnoDomini> | This is my original problem, you know. |
| 01:17 | < AnnoDomini> | How do I detect which bit is the sign bit in specific cases? |
| 01:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. First of all, as MCO said, there are only two options: one more bit output than input, or wrap-around. |
| 01:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | (or some other "incorrect" result) |
| 01:18 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm okay with one more bit of output than input... |
| 01:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | The MSB that is /not/ the carry bit will always be the sign bit. |
| 01:19 | < AnnoDomini> | So, if the carry bit is 0, then the next bit will be the sign bit? |
| 01:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | No. It _doesn't matter_ what the carry bit is. |
| 01:21 | | * AnnoDomini doesn't understand once again. |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | The carry bit can be used to determine whether the output has wrapped around or not, but has no effect on which bit is the sign bit. |
| 01:21 | < AnnoDomini> | Oh. |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. Your input is 4 bits for the addend and 4 bits for the augend, say. And optionally a Cin bit. |
| 01:21 | < AnnoDomini> | So, I have to convert to something else AGAIN, if the carry bit is 1. |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | The MSB for each of those two inputs indicates if it's negative or not. |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is to say, the 3-bit. |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | The output is a 4-bit sum (bits 0-3) and a Cout (bit 4). |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bit 3 is still the sign bit. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | And...no, you don't. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Why would you? |
| 01:23 | < AnnoDomini> | I do not know why, but I feel the overwhelming desire to have my output in sign-magnitude. |
| 01:24 | < MyCatOwnz> | Sign-magnitude is so FUBAR. |
| 01:25 | < MyCatOwnz> | The only sane way to use it is to convert to two's complement, do the addition properly, and then convert back. |
| 01:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Word. |
| 01:25 | < AnnoDomini> | MyCatOwnz: That's what I'm doing! |
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| 01:28 | | * ToxicFrog does some analysis |
| 01:28 | < MyCatOwnz> | AnnoDomini: so concentrate on the convert&convert-back circuits. Those're easy, but they're the main bit of your problem. |
| 01:28 | < Takyoji> | Heh, its pretty pothetic to see some of people's business websites through the recent years. Especially for those who basically have their website hosted on geocities, pasted a couple random GIFs from other websites and playing an annoying sound in the background. |
| 01:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | It doesn't appear to be possible to tell the difference between "0 (the inputs cancelled each other out)" and "0 (the result wrapped around)" |
| 01:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. If you really want to convert back to sign-magnitude, just leave the carry bit alone. |
| 01:33 | < AnnoDomini> | You're telling me that there is no way in hell I'm going to get the output in sign-magnitude? |
| 01:33 | <@McMartin> | No, I'm sure it can be done. |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...no, that's the exact opposite of what I said. |
| 01:33 | < AnnoDomini> | I seem to be confused as to what exactly you mean. |
| 01:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | You put in 2x4 bits of input. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | You get 5 bits of input: a four bit number and a carry bit. |
| 01:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Convert the 4-bit number back to sign-magnitude as normal and pass the carry bit through unaltered. |
| 01:35 | < AnnoDomini> | Uh... |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | This makes the circuit hideously more complicated (basically you now have another adder, because you can't just pull Cin high to do the add-one as you can when converting to two's-complement for the input), but it does work. |
| 01:35 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm getting 6 bits of input. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | You said four. |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | nnoDomini> "Build a circuit for subtraction of two four-bit integers." |
| 01:36 | | * AnnoDomini sighs. |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | HOWEVER. This technique works for arbitrary bit-widths. |
| 01:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you are in fact adding two 6-bit numbers, or two 3-bit numbers, it will still work. |
| 01:37 | < AnnoDomini> | The user input is a sign-magnitude five (5) bit number. So there. |
| 01:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. So it's a 5-bit subtractor, not a 4-bit subtractor. |
| 01:37 | < AnnoDomini> | Conversion to 2C and then the addition of those two makes it a 6 bit number. |
| 01:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | So your input to the circuit is two 5-bit numbers, and your input to the adder is two 5-bit numbers and a Cin. |
| 01:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Your output from the adder is a 5-bit number and a Cout. |
| 01:38 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 01:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | And your output from the circuit needs to be a 6-bit number in sign-magnitude, without wraparound? |
| 01:39 | < AnnoDomini> | I think so. |
| 01:39 | | Janus is now known as Jan[essay] |
| 01:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...ok, there's probably a way to do that, but bugger me if I can think of one. |
| 01:40 | | * Reiver buggers TF in an attempt to be helpful? |
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| 01:43 | < MyCatOwnz> | ...anyone know any electronic drawing software for Loonix? AD's problem is easy to solve, but awkward to describe verbally. |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aha. |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | AnnoDomini: ok. If both the sign bit and the carry bit are the same, the output is valid. |
| 01:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ie, there was no wraparound. |
| 01:44 | < AnnoDomini> | Alright... |
| 01:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Wait. |
| 01:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | No. |
| 01:44 | < MyCatOwnz> | Ah, here we are, xcircuit. |
| 01:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's not right. |
| 01:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Goddamit. |
| 01:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | That should be right, according to the text, but adding (2-bit-wide) 11 and 01 (-1+1) gives 1_00 |
| 01:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is valid, but Cout != MSB and thus claims it's not. |
| 01:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 01:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | I misread it. |
| 01:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, in order to determine the validity of the results, it looks like you need two carry bits. |
| 01:46 | < AnnoDomini> | Where does the other come from? |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Inside the adder, between the most-significant and most-significant-but-one slice. |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least, in a ripple-carry adder. |
| 01:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't know where in a carry-lookahead adder. |
| 01:47 | < AnnoDomini> | http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6229/circuithj0.gif Here's what I've got. |
| 01:48 | < AnnoDomini> | The 'sumv2' blocks are 1bit adders. |
| 01:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...I can't read this. |
| 01:48 | < AnnoDomini> | Top and right are inputs, bottom and left are outputs. |
| 01:48 | < AnnoDomini> | ToxicFrog: :/ |
| 01:49 | < AnnoDomini> | Well, was worth a try. |
| 01:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Doesn't the software let you cluster components into logical groups? |
| 01:49 | < AnnoDomini> | Er... do what now? |
| 01:50 | < AnnoDomini> | You mean like take a bunch of gates, and make 'em into a subcircuit? |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 01:50 | < AnnoDomini> | It does. |
| 01:50 | < AnnoDomini> | The 1bit adders are built like that. |
| 01:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you move up a few levels of abstraction, this circuit is (1) an SM to 2C converter, (2) a subtractor, and (3) a 2C to SM converter. |
| 01:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | The subtractor is an N-bit full-adder with Cin, and an inverter on the augend. |
| 01:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | The inverter is a bunch of NOT gates. |
| 01:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Etc. |
| 01:51 | < AnnoDomini> | ToxicFrog: Actually, the inverter is based on XOR gates. |
| 01:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...whyu? |
| 01:52 | < AnnoDomini> | Feeding a bit, and the sign bit into the XOR, get negation if the sign bit is 1, right? |
| 01:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's the converter, not the inverter. |
| 01:53 | < AnnoDomini> | Uh... yeah. |
| 01:53 | < AnnoDomini> | Right. I misinterpreted something. |
| 01:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is a subtractor, right? |
| 01:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, it's an adder with an inverter clamped across the augend. |
| 01:55 | < AnnoDomini> | Er. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | And Cin pulled high. |
| 01:55 | < AnnoDomini> | It's both an adder and a subtractor. Depending on what sign bits the user inputs. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. It's an adder. |
| 01:55 | < AnnoDomini> | And how you interpet this. Yeah. |
| 01:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Again, you *said* subtraction. |
| 01:56 | < AnnoDomini> | Right. So I get the n-1 carry bit from the additor. |
| 01:56 | < AnnoDomini> | I did, yes. |
| 01:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. So now we don't have the inverter, we just translate the inputs from SM to 2C and feed them to the adder. |
| 01:57 | < AnnoDomini> | But I am basing this on the example - which could add AND subtract, based on user input. |
| 01:57 | < AnnoDomini> | Indeed. |
| 01:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, but that's what an adder does. |
| 01:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | 3-4 is just 3 + (-4) |
| 01:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | A subtractor implies that if you put in 3,4, it calculates 3-4, and if you put in 3,-4, it calculates 3+4 |
| 01:58 | | Ev3 [~-@87.72.36.ns-26407] has joined #Code |
| 01:59 | < AnnoDomini> | Since the teacher didn't bother with that kind of stuff, neither shall I, is my assumption. |
| 01:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | "that kind of stuff"? |
| 02:00 | < AnnoDomini> | He made an adder when the problem was to build a subtractor, per instructions. |
| 02:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...without an inverter? |
| 02:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then "subtractor" was being used incorrectly. |
| 02:00 | < AnnoDomini> | Without. |
| 02:00 | < AnnoDomini> | No, no, no. |
| 02:00 | < AnnoDomini> | The word was never mentioned. |
| 02:01 | < AnnoDomini> | '(...) circuit for subtracting (...)' |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Right. That's a circuit that given two inputs (a,b) calculates (a-b). |
| 02:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is typically implemented as an adder-with-inverter. |
| 02:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | The circuit you appear to be making is an adder; given two inputs (a,b) it calculates (a+b). |
| 02:02 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 02:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | The fact that this is functionally equivalent to subtraction if one of them is negative does not make it a subtractor, it makes it a signed adder. |
| 02:02 | < AnnoDomini> | That's all I want, just with integers being supported. |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Right. |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, give me a minute to get a bagel while I ponder this. |
| 02:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Alright. Yes. The conversion from SM to 2C is correct. |
| 02:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least, as far as I can tell, since none of your inputs are labeled. |
| 02:09 | < MyCatOwnz> | MY GOOD LORD! I pity electronic engineers. |
| 02:09 | < MyCatOwnz> | The software tools they're forced to work with... |
| 02:09 | | * MyCatOwnz shudders. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | MCO: it would be so much easier if sign-magnitude wasn't involved |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 02:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | They Fucking Suck (tm) |
| 02:10 | < AnnoDomini> | I would put labels... |
| 02:10 | < MyCatOwnz> | I mean, seriously, WHAT THE HELL? Who in their right mind would ever sign off on such crap code? |
| 02:10 | < AnnoDomini> | If they were supported. |
| 02:10 | < AnnoDomini> | Which they are not. |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although at least Xilinx generates readable circuit diagrams. |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Usually. |
| 02:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | And supports labels. |
| 02:10 | < AnnoDomini> | MyCatOwnz: I dunno. This software was made for Win95. And can be run under Win3.0. |
| 02:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | You XOR bits 0 through 3 with bit 4 (the sign bit), leave bit 4 unchanged, and copy bit 4 to the Cin line of the adder, yes? |
| 02:11 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 02:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...wait. Shit. But we have two inputs, right? So one Cin line won't cut it. |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aaaaagh |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | Are you sure you have to use sign-magnitude? |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is a hilariously trivial circuit if not. |
| 02:12 | < AnnoDomini> | 2C is not any challenge. I got to that 9 hours ago. |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, hang on. |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're doing SM because you want to? |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not because it's part of the requirements? |
| 02:13 | < AnnoDomini> | It's implied. |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | In a situation like this, I, personally, would ask the professor. |
| 02:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Specifically, I would ask him "am I reading this correctly that you want us to use sign-magnitude? Because that's just fucked up." |
| 02:13 | < AnnoDomini> | If I get the chance, I will. |
| 02:14 | < AnnoDomini> | This is due Wednesday... yeah. Maybe I will have a chance. |
| 02:14 | < AnnoDomini> | He usually comes to the lecture on Tuesday, which is done by another bloke. |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | (except it wouldn't arise, because the entire coverage of SM in the course I took was "this is sign-magnitude. It works like so. Don't touch it, it's nasty. We won't be using it or discussing it further. Now, this is two's-complement...") |
| 02:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | You can't just email him? |
| 02:15 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Would have to look for his address... Hmm. I'll do that. |
| 02:17 | < AnnoDomini> | Will probably need to use my gmail for this. Since my usual email gets blocked out a lot by SpamCop or whatever. :/ |
| 02:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. I have a solution for the input-side converter. |
| 02:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's really fucking ugly but it should work. |
| 02:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | I still have nothing for the output-side. |
| 02:23 | < AnnoDomini> | Bloody fusk, typing in my own native language is annoying. |
| 02:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Gods, if prof. Areibi saw this circuit I'm drawing he'd have me shot. |
| 02:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. You seem to have more adders than necessary. |
| 02:30 | < AnnoDomini> | I do? |
| 02:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. If I'm reading this right, what you're doing is XORing and then incrementing each of the inputs, right? |
| 02:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | But you can skip the increment on one of them and pull the carry |
| 02:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | -in line of the main adder high when the sign bit is high instead. |
| 02:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is, for input A, you XOR bits 0-3 against bit 4, then run it through a ripple-carry incrementer (a half adder chain) with bit 4 attached to the increment line. |
| 02:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | But for input B, you XOR bits 0-3 against bit 4, and then just attach bit 4 to the Cin line of the main 5-bit adder. |
| 02:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bam. You just eliminated one of the increment chains - four whole half-adders - from the design. |
| 02:34 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm not really sure what you mean... but aside from being redundant, it's not incorrect, is it? |
| 02:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, it's not. |
| 02:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. Do you know of any online whiteboard software or the like? |
| 02:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | I should show you what I mean. |
| 02:35 | < AnnoDomini> | I don't believe so... I'll google it. |
| 02:35 | < MyCatOwnz> | ToxicFrog: you should start asking all vendors if their software is RFC1402 compliant, as well as just RFC1149 compliant. |
| 02:35 | < MyCatOwnz> | s/you/we/ |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vendors of what, and what are those RFCs? |
| 02:36 | < MyCatOwnz> | 1149 is TCP/IP over carrier pigeon. |
| 02:36 | < AnnoDomini> | Eh. Nothing I googled seems to match the description of what you want. |
| 02:36 | < MyCatOwnz> | 1402 is titled, "There's Gold in them thar Networks!" or "Searching for treasure in all the wrong places." |
| 02:37 | < MyCatOwnz> | Wierdly, it seems to be anticipating the rise of wikipedia long before wikipedia e'er arose. |
| 02:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Argh. I know there used to be a free Java-based whiteboard online |
| 02:38 | | Mahal is now known as MahalAway |
| 02:38 | < MyCatOwnz> | Use that fridge magnet program? |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/CWP-Sources/CWP-Examples/Chapter10/SimpleWhiteboard 2.html -- I don't know if this is shared, though. |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, doesn't look like it. |
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| 02:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Bah. I'll try to explain it in words, then. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. After inverting an input, you need to add 1 to it, yes? |
| 02:44 | <@McMartin> | "Notice that PATH contains '.', which is the current working directory. This allows you to create a shell script or program an drun it as a command from your current directory.... [i]f a directory isn't on your PATH, then the shell will not search it for commands to run" |
| 02:44 | <@McMartin> | 1995 was clearly a simpler, more trusting time. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're doing this by putting that input through an adder, with the augend lines 0 and the carry-in line 1. |
| 02:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | (you can actually simplify this by using half-adders) |
| 02:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then, you run both inverted-and-incremented inputs through the main full adder. |
| 02:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Basically, you're calculating ((¬A+0+1)+(¬B+0+1)+0) |
| 02:46 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 02:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, you don't actually have to increment B - you can leave it un-incremented and pull the carry-in line of the main adder high instead, which has the same effect. |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thus calculating ((¬A+0+1)+¬B+1) |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | This allows you to omit the four (half-)adders previously used to increment B before it reaches the main adder. |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | It doesn't improve the circuit speed at all, but it lowers the gate cost and makes it easier to read. |
| 02:48 | < AnnoDomini> | Oh, yeah. Now I see it. |
| 02:49 | < AnnoDomini> | Wouldn't this omit six of the 1bit adders? |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Err. Five, actually. |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sorry, I was thinking in terms of four-bit inputs. |
| 02:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, for the incrementing of A (which is still necessary) - you can use half-adders instead of full-adders for the increment, which simplifies things. |
| 02:50 | < AnnoDomini> | Uh. Right. Five. |
| 02:51 | < AnnoDomini> | 'Half-adders?' |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | A full-adder takes three inputs (A,B,Cin) and generates two outputs (S,Cout) |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | A half-adder takes two inputs (A,B) and generates two outputs (S,Cout) |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | In your incrementors, you're only using two of the three inputs of each adder. |
| 02:53 | < AnnoDomini> | Ah, yes. |
| 02:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | This just leaves the output 2C-to-SM conversion. |
| 02:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | For which I still have no ideas. |
| 02:58 | < AnnoDomini> | Aw... |
| 02:59 | < AnnoDomini> | At least I've sent out the email. |
| 03:03 | | Jan[essay] is now known as Jan[bath|essay] |
| 03:09 | | * AnnoDomini eyes the clock. |
| 03:10 | < AnnoDomini> | Well, 4 AM certainly snuck up on me. |
| 03:10 | < AnnoDomini> | Might as well do away with sleeping for today. |
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| 03:15 | < Stephenie> | Where are you at AD? |
| 03:15 | < AnnoDomini> | Poland. |
| 03:15 | < Stephenie> | Ah |
| 03:17 | < AnnoDomini> | I am so glad I equipped my room with an electric kettle and supplied it with sugar and teabags. |
| 03:19 | < Stephenie> | mmm tea |
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| 12:33 | <@Reiver> | |
| 12:33 | <@Reiver> | Oh. |
| 12:33 | <@Reiver> | That is so very perfect. |
| 12:34 | | * Reiver finally groks a bit of code and squeee vaugely. |
| 12:34 | <@AnnoDomini> | Hmm? |
| 12:34 | <@Reiver> | Eh |
| 12:34 | <@Reiver> | Just a complex bit of recursion I was trying to get my head around. |
| 12:34 | | * Ev3 PatPats Reiver. |
| 12:34 | <@Reiver> | It was a recursion that was using a recursive function. |
| 12:35 | <@Reiver> | I kept getting stuck on how it was recursing twice at once till I slowed down and read it line by line the way you're meant to~ |
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| 22:13 | < Takyoji> | How do I properly configure my computers to share files with each over wireless internet? |
| 22:14 | < Takyoji> | Both are Windows XP - Home Edition |
| 22:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | The same way you do over wired. |
| 22:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ie, set up a Linux fileserver. |
| 22:14 | < Takyoji> | How though? |
| 22:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have never gotten two windows machines to share files directly. |
| 22:15 | < Takyoji> | Yea, its always a pain |
| 22:15 | < Takyoji> | My brother has a few times |
| 22:16 | < Takyoji> | with windows 98 though |
| 22:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | In all seriousness, I have found it vastly easier to set up sharing between N windows machines and a Linux machine than between two windows machines. |
| 22:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | I know the steps that, in theory, will allow sharing between two windows machines, but this is kind of useless because they do not work. |
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| 22:37 | < Ev3> | TF, he could also just rightclick it and press "share" |
| 22:37 | < Ev3> | And access his other box and fetch it. |
| 22:38 | < Ev3> | No setup needed, no fancypancy anything else. |
| 22:38 | < Ev3> | Drag and drop and clicking buttons. |
| 22:38 | < Ev3> | You issue is that you cannot "find" the other computer. |
| 22:38 | < Ev3> | Which is easy \\computername |
| 22:39 | < Ev3> | Especially with the same version. |
| 22:39 | < Ev3> | It gets funky when it's not the same version because windows is forward compatible. |
| 22:39 | < Ev3> | NOT backwards compatible. |
| 22:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ev3: you also have to configure the windows firewalls on both machines to enable file sharing, and ZoneAlarm or similar if it's installed. |
| 22:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | And then it still doesn't work. |
| 22:39 | < Ev3> | This is why you don't use ZA. |
| 22:40 | < Ev3> | Because ZA sucks. |
| 22:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even on systems without ZA. |
| 22:40 | < Ev3> | And the windows firewall does too :p |
| 22:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because windows sucks, and CIFS especially sucks. |
| 22:40 | < Ev3> | You have to enable sharing on any firewall that is too restrictive to permit you the actions you are doing. |
| 22:40 | < Ev3> | Even using a linux fileserver. |
| 22:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. The difference is that with a Linux fileserver, after setting up the server and configuring the firewall, you can actually access the files on it. |
| 22:41 | < Ev3> | As you can with windows after setting up the share and settupt up the firewall. |
| 22:41 | < Ev3> | It's easy. |
| 22:41 | | * Ev3 does it between her two boxes. |
| 22:41 | < Ev3> | There, done. |
| 22:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Except for the part where it doesn't fucking work, yes. |
| 22:42 | < Ev3> | You saw the note above on compatability? |
| 22:42 | < Ev3> | If you want to share a file from win98 to a winXP for example, you're going to have to allow everyone access to this particular folder, write access. And have the win98 machine put the file onto the other box. |
| 22:43 | < Ev3> | Because the newer windows is too stupid to recognize the win98 machine. |
| 22:43 | < Ev3> | Of course there are several pieces of software that faciliates the process. |
| 22:43 | < Ev3> | Using the DCC option of mIRC for example. |
| 22:43 | < Ev3> | When that works. |
| 22:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or, say, setting up a Linux fileserver. See (1). |
| 22:44 | < Ev3> | That would be tedious on a windows machine. |
| 22:44 | < Ev3> | Especially a winXP home. |
| 22:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...no, not really. |
| 22:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | And DCC is only useful for small numbers of files, which is a completely different problem. |
| 22:45 | < Ev3> | Nope. |
| 22:45 | < Ev3> | For the recieving user, add the sender as trusted. |
| 22:45 | < Ev3> | Drag and drop into query. |
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| 22:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | You misunderstand me. |
| 22:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | DCC is "I want to move this specific file between these two machines" |
| 22:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | CIFS and NFS are "I want to access the filesystem on machine A as though it were on machine B" |
| 22:46 | | * Ev3 shrugs. |
| 22:46 | < Ev3> | I thought he meant he wanted to move files from one computer to another? |
| 22:46 | < Ev3> | Otherwise I'd suggest the synergy software. |
| 22:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, he said he wanted to use windows filesharing, which is for network mounting of filesystems. |
| 22:47 | < Ev3> | Between two computers, using wifi. |
| 22:47 | < Ev3> | "Two computers" being the part I focused on. |
| 22:48 | < Ev3> | There's no need to allow distribution of files to a mass media, if the target media is only one other subject. |
| 22:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, but CIFS isn't just for mass distribution. |
| 22:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean, yes, if he wants to get a specific document from A to B, it's not necessary. |
| 22:48 | < Ev3> | It's also completely redundant when it can be done with a bit of knowledge and three clicks. |
| 22:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | But I read that as wanted to do filesharing between two systems on a wireless LAN. |
| 22:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | For example, he's on computer A, computer B has all his music. |
| 22:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | He wants to CIFS-mount the music so he can play it in winamp without copying 35+GB over DCC. |
| 22:49 | < Ev3> | That would be silly, as most Wireless is 11MBps. |
| 22:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | 54MBps. |
| 22:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least if you have decent signal strength. |
| 22:50 | < Ev3> | Most Wireless distributed en Denmark, then. |
| 22:50 | < Ev3> | I cannot of course speak with experiences outside my own. |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | We're talking about _home wireless_ here. Not a wireless ISP, a wireless LAN with 802.11g. |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which, barring signal degradation wackiness, is 54MBps. |
| 22:50 | < Ev3> | And my experiences is that windows filesharing is easy and works, if it's "making a file available for transfer" you want. |
| 22:51 | < Ev3> | Sharing it the abovementioned way would ALSO allow him to listen to his music in winamp if he so desires through simple drag and drop. |
| 22:51 | < Ev3> | And an excessive system load on the sending machine. |
| 22:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...no it wouldn't! |
| 22:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | DCC doesn't work like that! |
| 22:51 | < Ev3> | Mine dies. |
| 22:51 | < Ev3> | And I'm not talking mIRC DCC. |
| 22:51 | < Ev3> | I'm talking basic windows three click filesharing. |
| 22:52 | < Ev3> | does* |
| 22:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's not DCC, that's CIFS. |
| 22:52 | < Ev3> | Yes? |
| 22:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is what I've been talking about this entire time, while you were saying that DCC was the correct solution. |
| 22:52 | < Ev3> | No. |
| 22:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Screw this, I'm going back to X2. |
| 22:52 | < Ev3> | Have fun. |
| 22:53 | | * Stephenie blinks and cuddles Ben |
| 22:55 | | Thokk is now known as EvilDarkLord |
| 22:55 | | Kiers is now known as AnnoDomini |
| 22:56 | | ChalcyThesis is now known as ChalcyMusic |
| 22:59 | | AnnoDomini [~fark.off@Nightstar-29805.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Some people find sanity a little confining.] |
| 23:04 | <@Reiver> | Ben? |
| 23:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes? |
| 23:08 | <@Reiver> | Oh |
| 23:08 | <@Reiver> | You're ben. |
| 23:08 | <@Reiver> | OK. |
| 23:08 | <@Reiver> | Carry on~ |
| 23:09 | <@Vornicus> | heh |
| 23:12 | < Ev3> | :p |
| 23:14 | | EvilDarkLord is now known as EvilSLEPLord |
| 23:14 | | EvilSLEPLord is now known as EvilAwayLord |
| 23:16 | | MyCatOwnz [~mycatownz@Nightstar-379.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 23:25 | | ChalcyMusic is now known as Chalcedon |
| 23:32 | | Reiver is now known as ReivOut |
| 23:42 | | ReivTeKuiti [~reaverta@IRCop.Nightstar.Net] has joined #Code |
| 23:43 | | ReivOut [~reaverta@IRCop.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| --- Log closed Mon Nov 27 00:00:29 2006 |