| --- Log opened Sat Nov 25 00:00:12 2006 |
| 00:28 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 06:55 | < TakyojiClone> | Why the hell isn't Firefox calculating the hover, active, visited, and link color attributes from my CSS file for my links? |
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| 18:39 | < Janus> | May I ask a semi-urgent question before my router explodes again? |
| 18:40 | < Janus> | Ever since I've started the torrent, my router has been disconnecting rather frequently, and the only way to restore it is by unplugging/plugging it in... |
| 18:41 | < Janus> | Does anyone have an idea why..? |
| 18:41 | < Ev3> | Torrenting is bad for your health? |
| 18:41 | | * Ev3 shrugs. |
| 18:41 | < Janus> | True~ |
| 18:42 | < AnnoDomini> | Torrents tend to block all my bandwidth, both incoming and outgoing. Hence why I use them very seldomly. |
| 18:43 | < Janus> | Would that by why the router keeps blacking out, too much traffic? |
| 18:44 | < AnnoDomini> | No idea. Perhaps. |
| 18:45 | | * Janus throttles the upload rate very inconsiderately. |
| 18:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | What router is it, Janus? |
| 18:48 | <@jerith> | A router should not fall over under load... |
| 18:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | It /shouldn't/, but several of them do. |
| 18:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Such as the Linksys BEFSR models. |
| 18:50 | < Janus> | "Surf Board SB4100 Cable Modem" |
| 18:51 | <@jerith> | Is there no QA left in the networking industry? |
| 18:51 | < Janus> | And it's hooked this other boxish thing called "Dlink" something other. It's quite the annonomous thing. |
| 18:52 | < Janus> | Oddly, it seems that IRC in addition to the torrent is what causes the blackouts. |
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| 20:44 | < Takyoji> | Anyone know how to write a CSR? |
| 20:44 | < Stephenie> | file? |
| 20:45 | < Takyoji> | no, a Certificate signing request |
| 20:45 | < Stephenie> | negative i dont |
| 20:45 | <@jerith> | Not me, sorry. |
| 20:45 | < Takyoji> | hmm |
| 20:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | I think there's ssh-related tools for that in Linux, but no idea on windows. |
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| 20:55 | < Takyoji> | I'm trying to get a certificate from cacert.org, but it says it needs me to input a CSR |
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| 21:46 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmm. Question: How difficult is it to costruct a circuit for comparing the size of a 5-bit binary number (two outputs - y1 for the first one being bigger, y2 for the second one being bigger), using logic gates? |
| 21:47 | <@jerith> | Hmm... |
| 21:47 | <@jerith> | Unsigned? |
| 21:47 | < AnnoDomini> | Sign bit + four value bits. |
| 21:47 | | * jerith ponders. |
| 21:48 | <@jerith> | The sign bit could be a touch tricky. |
| 21:48 | <@jerith> | Let's start with unsigned for now. |
| 21:48 | <@jerith> | Not two's complement? |
| 21:48 | < AnnoDomini> | Er... wait. I just need usigned 4-bit, upon consideration. |
| 21:48 | < AnnoDomini> | *unsigned |
| 21:49 | < AnnoDomini> | jerith: No, plain binary. |
| 21:49 | < AnnoDomini> | Though I use two's complement later in the circuit, the input values are in plain binary. |
| 21:49 | <@jerith> | Well, you xor each bit-pair. |
| 21:50 | < AnnoDomini> | Mmmm. |
| 21:50 | <@jerith> | The output of the xor is anded with each bit. |
| 21:50 | <@jerith> | Then you need to just choose the highest bit that has a one. |
| 21:51 | < AnnoDomini> | 4-input AND gate? |
| 21:51 | <@jerith> | No. |
| 21:51 | <@jerith> | Essentially, you look at each bit in turn. |
| 21:51 | <@jerith> | xor the msb. |
| 21:52 | <@jerith> | If the xor is 1, one of the numbers is higher. |
| 21:52 | < AnnoDomini> | Ah. |
| 21:52 | <@jerith> | Therefore you and the result of the xor with msb1 for y1. |
| 21:53 | <@jerith> | But you need to essentially cascade all the bits. |
| 21:53 | <@jerith> | If the xor is 0, you check the next one down. |
| 21:54 | <@jerith> | I'm just trying to think of a good way to do that. |
| 21:54 | | Ev3 [~-@87.72.36.ns-26407] has quit [Quit: Don't try to read the quit message, that is impossible. Instead only realize the thruth; "there is no quit message" and you will see it is not you who read the quit message but the quit message who reads you.] |
| 21:54 | <@jerith> | You could of course just draw the 10-bit karnaugh map. |
| 21:55 | < AnnoDomini> | Like I said, this must be done with logic gates alone, graphically. |
| 21:55 | <@jerith> | Except at that point you're better off with Quine-McLusky (sp?) reduction. |
| 21:55 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm working in Electronics Workbench here. |
| 21:56 | <@jerith> | You can *draw* it graphically. Doesn't mean you have to *design* it without using other tools. |
| 21:57 | < AnnoDomini> | But from the explanation, I gather that this would involve work more complex than the whole integer additor I'm making. |
| 21:57 | <@jerith> | It's just boolean algebra when you get down to it. |
| 21:58 | < AnnoDomini> | Mmm. |
| 21:59 | < AnnoDomini> | I just have to locate the bloody indicator, the bit that will tell me whether the number is negative or not. |
| 21:59 | < AnnoDomini> | I can do the extremes ++ and -- done easily with an AND gate, but the four spots inbetween are harder. |
| 22:00 | <@jerith> | ? |
| 22:00 | < AnnoDomini> | I've got two signed integers. The circuit is supposed to add them up. |
| 22:00 | < AnnoDomini> | This is using two's complement, so any negative numbers will show up in two's complement encoding. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | AnnoDomini: testing > or negativity is basically the same as subtraction. |
| 22:01 | < AnnoDomini> | The problem is to distinguish when this happens so I can negate and add 1 to get it back into normal binary. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh. That's even easier. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | If the MSB is high, it's negative. |
| 22:02 | <@jerith> | A two's complement adder means you can add positive and negative numbers and treat them all the same. |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | That too. |
| 22:02 | < AnnoDomini> | No, no, this is not the case here, I'm afraid. The input and output both use the sign as a separate bit. |
| 22:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Then it's not two's complement. |
| 22:03 | < AnnoDomini> | If two's complement is needed, those bits count, otherwise not... Got Electronics Workbench 5.0c? |
| 22:03 | < AnnoDomini> | I could send ye the file. |
| 22:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, I am now sufficiently confused that I have no idea what the actual problem is. |
| 22:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | No, I don't. |
| 22:03 | <@jerith> | So you're adding in two's complement and converting on both ends? |
| 22:04 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 22:04 | <@jerith> | So, you check the sign bit and convert if necessary. |
| 22:04 | <@jerith> | Do you hav e that? |
| 22:04 | <@jerith> | *have |
| 22:04 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 22:05 | <@jerith> | Then you do the same with the output. |
| 22:05 | <@jerith> | Right? |
| 22:05 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. That's what I'm TRYING to do. |
| 22:05 | <@jerith> | Don't forget your output needs to be a bit wider. |
| 22:05 | < AnnoDomini> | But I can't seem to grok where the sign bit is. |
| 22:06 | < AnnoDomini> | jerith: Yes, I know. |
| 22:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...the specification doesn't say? |
| 22:06 | <@jerith> | So that you can handle overflows. |
| 22:06 | < AnnoDomini> | ToxicFrog: The what? |
| 22:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | The specification. As in, the description of the problem you are solving. |
| 22:06 | < AnnoDomini> | jerith: The thing works perfectly except for the lack of 2comp->bin conversion on the output side. |
| 22:06 | <@jerith> | The sign bit in two's complement is the msb. |
| 22:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | From what you're saying, it sounds like it says "the input is a 4-bit binary number with a 5th bit that indicates signedness, but we aren't telling you which one" |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | ... |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Dude. I said ages ago. In two's complement, if the MSB is high, it's negative. |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | That is all you have to test. |
| 22:07 | <@jerith> | So you check the msb of the output. If it's set, you convert back. |
| 22:08 | | * AnnoDomini is confused. And will be back after some more trying to make it work. |
| 22:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | .... |
| 22:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, hang on. |
| 22:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | The problem is that you have a two's complement number and need to see if it's negative, right? |
| 22:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | And if it is you convert it back to this bizarre other representation you're using, and if not you leave it alone? |
| 22:08 | <@jerith> | Perhaps an example will help. |
| 22:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Test. The. MSB. |
| 22:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't know how else to say this. |
| 22:09 | < AnnoDomini> | ToxicFrog: Why are you so angry? |
| 22:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm not angry, I'm confused! |
| 22:10 | <@jerith> | 1 == 00001. -2 == 11110. |
| 22:11 | <@jerith> | 11110+00001 = 11111 == -1 |
| 22:12 | <@jerith> | Umm, two's complement doesn't work nicely with the extra bit on the front of the outpu. |
| 22:13 | | * jerith considers. |
| 22:15 | | * AnnoDomini tinkers. |
| 22:15 | <@jerith> | Because two's comp *depends* on the overflow. |
| 22:17 | | * EvilDarkLord glees as he sees what SICP offers in later chapters. Registry computing, building an interpreter in Scheme for Scheme. Fun stuff. |
| 22:17 | <@jerith> | I need to read my SICP sometime... |
| 22:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | 'registry' computing? |
| 22:18 | | * EvilDarkLord coughs. |
| 22:18 | < EvilDarkLord> | "Computing with registry machines". |
| 22:18 | < EvilDarkLord> | *register |
| 22:18 | < EvilDarkLord> | Dammit. |
| 22:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now it makes sense. |
| 22:18 | < EvilDarkLord> | Stop applying your knowledge to my ignorant statements! |
| 22:19 | | * EvilDarkLord goes back to fiddling with chapter 3.2, "The environment model of evaluation". |
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| 23:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 23:54 | < AnnoDomini> | Mmmkay. Redid it. |
| 23:55 | < AnnoDomini> | Now it's all the same bloody number. Much clearer. But I still don't know how the hell this thing will know when the output is negative. |
| 23:55 | < AnnoDomini> | To convert a negative binary number into a two's complement number, you need to negate the non-sign bits, and add 1, right? |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Umm. |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | What do you mean by "negative binary number"? |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Uncomplemented with sign bit? |
| 23:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Sign-bit, one's complement and two's complement are all types of negative binary number. |
| 23:57 | < AnnoDomini> | Hmm. |
| 23:57 | < AnnoDomini> | 10001 (-1 in negative 'normal' binary) == 11111 (-1 in two's complement). Right? |
| 23:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | There is no "negative normal binary". The first form there is sign-magnitude. |
| 23:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yes, it is. |
| 23:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | (or rather, there is negative normal binary -- "-0001" -- but you can't express it on a computer) |
| 23:58 | | * AnnoDomini sighs. |
| 23:59 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm reserving the MSB of the input numbers for the sign. |
| 23:59 | < AnnoDomini> | No voltage - plus, voltage - minus. |
| 23:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. That's sign-magnitude. |
| 23:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | One bit for the sign, and the rest of the bits for the magnitude. |
| --- Log closed Sun Nov 26 00:00:29 2006 |