| --- Log opened Sun Nov 05 00:00:53 2006 |
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| 08:05 | < Vornicus> | Okay, stupid code problem of the day. |
| 08:05 | < Vornicus> | I have Vectors, and I have Points. |
| 08:05 | < Vornicus> | Now, a Vector is a translation. You take a point and a vector together, and you can make a line through the point in the direction of the vector. |
| 08:06 | < Vornicus> | And a point is a /place/. YOu take two points together, and you can make a line through both points. |
| 08:06 | < Vornicus> | The problem? Vectors and points are /so/ similar that many applications and libraries make them indistinguishable. |
| 08:07 | < Vornicus> | This coexistence plays merry hell with duck typing. |
| 08:09 | | * jerith ponders. |
| 08:10 | <@jerith> | Are these /your/ classes or someone else's? |
| 08:10 | < Vornicus> | Mine |
| 08:10 | <@jerith> | Perhaps give everything that is or contains a point a "get_point" method. |
| 08:10 | < Vornicus> | But I know that most libraries use one class for both points and vectors. |
| 08:10 | <@jerith> | And the same for vectors. |
| 08:11 | <@jerith> | Would tht be a class with both coordintes and direction? |
| 08:12 | < Vornicus> | I'm not sure what you just asked. |
| 08:13 | <@jerith> | The one class they use for both. |
| 08:13 | <@jerith> | Does a vector have position? Or just direction? |
| 08:14 | < Vornicus> | It's just a vector. |
| 08:14 | < Vornicus> | A vector is a translation that you can apply to any point in the universe. |
| 08:15 | < Vornicus> | The thing is, when they mean "point", they just take the translation from the origin. |
| 08:15 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 08:15 | <@jerith> | That changes things somewhat. |
| 08:15 | | * McMartin abandons his Python lexer, goes back to UQM. |
| 08:15 | < Vornicus> | Yeah |
| 08:16 | | * jerith stabs FC6 in the "won't let me mount my USB drive". |
| 08:16 | < McMartin> | jerith: ... x86? |
| 08:16 | | * jerith nods. |
| 08:16 | < McMartin> | My Thinkpad refuses to mount USB drives unless I dock it after power-up. |
| 08:16 | < McMartin> | If I boot it docked, it refuses to see them. |
| 08:17 | < McMartin> | I think there's something screwy with the x86 high-speed USB, since mice and joysticks work fine, even in the same slot. |
| 08:17 | < Vornicus> | So, when OpenGL wants a line, it takes two vectors, and uses them as points. |
| 08:18 | <@jerith> | It's doing *something* with it. When I unplug the usb, the processor fan slows. |
| 08:18 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 08:19 | <@jerith> | Hey TW. |
| 08:19 | < McMartin> | Yeah, it wouldn't even light up my pendrive. |
| 08:20 | < McMartin> | On the other hand, the x86_64 FC6 doesn't have this property, and it reads my USB joystick, which FC5 didn't. |
| 08:20 | < McMartin> | On the x86_64 side, FC6 has been a much more unmixed win. |
| 08:22 | | * jerith sighs. |
| 08:23 | | * McMartin wonders if the i586 kernel works better. |
| 08:23 | < McMartin> | Actually, I'm hoping most of this mess goes away by the time there's an official kernel upgrade. |
| 08:24 | < Vornicus> | My problem is, they /must/ act differently, because they /are/ two different things. |
| 08:27 | <@jerith> | Your problem is no longer one of duck typing, then. It is one of "using the same class for two different things". |
| 08:27 | < Vornicus> | yeah |
| 08:28 | < Vornicus> | And making them act approximately as expected to /other people/ is where the duck typing problem comes in - because they're so similar, and all |
| 08:28 | | ThaquiWork is now known as Thaqui |
| 08:29 | < McMartin> | Duck typing? |
| 08:29 | <@jerith> | "If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck." |
| 08:29 | < McMartin> | Ah |
| 08:29 | < McMartin> | Mmm, dimensional analysis types. |
| 08:30 | | Chalcedon is now known as ChalcyZzz |
| 08:30 | < McMartin> | One of the many things you can abuse with C++ templates! |
| 08:30 | <@jerith> | Instead of forcing checks for specific types, check for behaviour. |
| 08:30 | < McMartin> | Yeah. |
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| 08:40 | < Vornicus> | ...on the other hand, I can't actually think of any operations that points have that vectors don't. |
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| 08:46 | < McMartin> | Other way around, surely. |
| 08:46 | < McMartin> | "Cross product", "Dot product" |
| 08:47 | < Vornicus> | I can think of plenty - including cross and dot - that vectors have but points don't |
| 08:47 | < Vornicus> | but I can't think of /any/ that points have but vectors don't. |
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| 08:48 | <@jerith> | "Absolute position", which is just a special case, really. |
| 08:48 | < Vornicus> | yeah |
| 08:49 | <@jerith> | Anyways, I'm off to buy chees. |
| 08:49 | <@jerith> | +e |
| 08:49 | <@jerith> | Cheers all. |
| 08:50 | | * TheWatcher eyes jerith, wonders if he's been playing too myc San and Max... |
| 08:50 | <@jerith> | No, I really am off to buy cheese. |
| 08:50 | <@jerith> | And wine. |
| 08:51 | <@jerith> | http://www.fairview.co.za |
| 08:51 | <@jerith> | From there. |
| 08:51 | < TheWatcher> | In that case, farewell |
| 08:51 | <@jerith> | :-) |
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| 13:46 | <@jerith> | So, any Java hackers in here? |
| 13:46 | <@jerith> | I have issues with swing. |
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| 13:49 | | * TheWatcher wouldn't say he really qualifies, since he tries to avoid swing like the proverbialplague |
| 13:51 | <@jerith> | My cousin is required to use it for school. |
| 13:51 | <@jerith> | Also, apparently it's an old versio nthat doesn't have a SpringLayout component. |
| 13:54 | <@jerith> | I've done very little GUI stuff anywhere, myself. |
| 13:57 | < EvilDarkLord> | The Swing tutorials at Sun's site tend to be pretty good for the ~simple stuff. |
| 13:57 | | * jerith nods. |
| 13:58 | <@jerith> | However! It seems the thing we want is a GridLayout. |
| 13:58 | <@jerith> | Except we can't resize it. :-( |
| 13:59 | < ToxicFrog> | GridBagLayout? |
| 14:00 | <@jerith> | That looked nontrivial. |
| 14:00 | <@jerith> | And there appeared to be no tutorial. :-/ |
| 14:01 | < ToxicFrog> | Everything in Java is nontrivial. |
| 14:01 | <@jerith> | Essentially, we want two columns. Preferably not the same width, but we can live with that. |
| 14:01 | < ToxicFrog> | An HBox containing two VBoxes? |
| 14:01 | < ToxicFrog> | (does swing have those?) |
| 14:02 | <@jerith> | SpringLayout looks perfect for our needs, with its helper classes, but apparently the tools they're using are too old to have it. |
| 14:03 | <@jerith> | In other news, at least my DNS has updated. |
| 14:04 | <@jerith> | So now if xname gets DoSed again I don't lose my box. |
| 14:05 | < ToxicFrog> | Handy. |
| 14:05 | | * ToxicFrog flails at the OpenNIC servers, which keep going down and leaving him with nothing but his ISP's servers, which only resolve ICANN TLDs ;.; |
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| 16:35 | < McMartin> | Dynamic loading is trivial in Java~ |
| 16:35 | < McMartin> | That's about it, though. |
| 16:35 | <@jerith> | Dynamic loading of? |
| 16:35 | < McMartin> | Anything. |
| 16:36 | < McMartin> | It's the primary thing CLASSPATH bullshit buys you. |
| 16:36 | <@jerith> | Ah. |
| 16:36 | <@jerith> | It's not worth the pain. |
| 16:36 | < McMartin> | You've clearly never had to do battle with dlopen~ |
| 16:38 | <@jerith> | I loaded C libraries ot one point. |
| 16:38 | <@jerith> | Um, C++. |
| 16:38 | < McMartin> | The Mac build of Sable still seems to run randomly or not depending on OS configuration. |
| 16:39 | <@jerith> | Was painful, but less painful than the hoops I have to jump through to get a sane classpath. |
| 16:39 | <@TheWatcher> | McM: probably it's missing . on LD_LIBRARY_PATH or something... |
| 16:39 | < McMartin> | -Djava.libraryext=/usr/share/lib/java/ ? |
| 16:40 | < McMartin> | Something like that, anyway. |
| 16:40 | < McMartin> | Most sensible distros that include Java preconfigure it to essentially have a /usr/lib instead of listing 3,000 JARs by hand. |
| 16:42 | < McMartin> | That said, you haven't lived until you've had two mutually incompatible versions of the same library running simultaneously in one app, despite the fact that both versions use identical class names. |
| 16:42 | < McMartin> | That requires a little more than CLASSPATH trickery, though |
| 16:47 | <@jerith> | Fscking swing. |
| 16:48 | < McMartin> | Yeah, swing's only advantages are (a) it's not AWT, and (b) it's actually cross-platform |
| 16:49 | | * McMartin is given to understand that writing SWT code to run on Win32, X11, and OSX requires you to basically know MFC, GTK, and Carbon. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Nov 06 00:00:53 2006 |