| --- Log opened Tue Aug 10 00:00:04 2021 |
| --- Day changed Tue Aug 10 2021 |
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| 03:09 | <~Vornicus> | https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329400828920070144/874469609481326612/unknown.png I am grumpy |
| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | I am not completely sure what I am looking at |
| 03:12 | <~Vornicus> | the texture is a cube map; correct behavior is similar to https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329400828920070144/874470458517487636/unknown.png |
| 03:12 | <~Vornicus> | Which is to say that the corners (at the ends of the scalloping) should each be a single color |
| 03:20 | <~Vornicus> | but for some reason this particular layout for the cube map loader does not line things up to be continuous. |
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| 12:53 | < Yossarian> | I just realized something about myself and my 'problem' with my coding block and fear - it doesn't really matter what I write or what language(s) I write it in, but I should get accustomed to making applications for Linux & BSD, leaving open options of portability if possible. |
| 12:53 | < Yossarian> | What I mean by that is: |
| 12:54 | < Yossarian> | 1) good makefile |
| 12:55 | < Yossarian> | 2) groff/troff manpage inclusion, additional documentation is welcome |
| 12:56 | < Yossarian> | 3) begin getting accustomed to my main target OS' syscalls (Linux) and things such as lock files (which even vim, openoffice, &c... use) |
| 12:59 | < Yossarian> | 4) some sort of automated testing system |
| 13:00 | <&[R]> | You don't need all of that from the get go |
| 13:00 | < Yossarian> | in terms of 4, I'm not sure what exists for automated unit-testing for C, C++... Java has it's own classes for unit testing but never got around to it personally nor during class |
| 13:00 | <&[R]> | Just write code and get things done |
| 13:00 | < Yossarian> | No, it's a process. But those are the goals to strive for. |
| 13:03 | <&[R]> | Also you can have a hilariously simple makefile for a bunch of single C-file programs: https://termbin.com/x259 |
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| 13:05 | < Yossarian> | I also forget on the coding side on how to implement things in a model-view-control style, I feel for a lot of my projects that such internal model would be ideal. I want to make OpenCiv with rules defined via XML or json, well, why spend the time writing or trying to implement a pre-existing display (and control) engine? |
| 13:07 | < Yossarian> | So getting the actual logic to work with a very simple view and control and make it to where ideally you can change an argument flag or some lines of code and it pretty much works in an 2d isometric render... that's web-based or whatever have you. |
| 13:07 | < Yossarian> | I suppose the word would be 'modularity'. |
| 13:09 | < Yossarian> | I haven't looked at Dwarf Fortress' source but it seems lots of things are inherently tied to curses that have made it a pain to port it to a 2d engine that I think we're still waiting for release on STEAM? |
| 13:10 | <~Vornicus> | DF doesn't use curses, afaik |
| 13:12 | < Yossarian> | Mmm, I'm just assuming. nethack or derivatives (SLASH'Em) have had less trouble but I haven't peeked under the hood. |
| 13:12 | <~Vornicus> | well, the thing is |
| 13:13 | <~Vornicus> | DF has its own custom rendering. it just *looks* like ascii because toady does not have skills of an artist. |
| 13:13 | < Yossarian> | Yeah, there is complexity in the view that won't or can't translate to a "lower" interface, like for example, if one were to take Civ5 and port the graphics/display and control down to ncurses... well, there are no need for all those animate functions or assets. |
| 13:14 | < Yossarian> | <~Vornicus> DF has its own custom rendering. it just *looks* like ascii because toady does not have skills of an artist. |
| 13:14 | <~Vornicus> | this is worse than curses because - like |
| 13:14 | < Yossarian> | I'm trying to get my australian art friend to try and get to do commissions for indie developers for concept art and beyond, but she won't bite. |
| 13:15 | <&[R]> | She has her own issues, that's needlessly burdening her |
| 13:15 | <~Vornicus> | - the reason a lot of the nethack graphical things can exist at all is that it knows how to read curses |
| 13:15 | < Yossarian> | There are so many great ideas out there but sometimes they're not realized because the person isn't good with assets and art, we've seen tons of FOSS games like this. |
| 13:16 | < Yossarian> | A shim or translation layer? Mmm, I mean from the offset, writing for strict modularity for model-view-control. Small multiplayer FOSS games. Server doesn't care about the client you're using to view and control. |
| 13:19 | < Yossarian> | And despite Linux, BSD, OSX (Mach kernel ripped off) being superior platforms, important to have interoperability between Linux-likes and the stupid goddam Windows, although if Microsoft actually takes Windows 11 seriously, I'd like to hope there wouldn't be any marketshare left. |
| 13:21 | < Yossarian> | But I know that won't happen. |
| 13:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, these days there's WSL, so you can target linux and deploy on windows without expecting people to install cygwin~ |
| 13:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said -- if you're working with a CLR or JVM language (like C#, Scala, Clojure...) that is pretty much write-once run-anywhere as long as you don't pull in any native dependencies, although native look-and-feel is harder |
| 13:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the modern windows tty even supports vt220 escapes so you don't need to fuck around with ANSI.SYS to do pretty terminal art) |
| 13:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Lua is easy to deploy cross-platform as long as you stick to the love2d API |
| 13:25 | < Yossarian> | I know it's a meme/myth but honestly, I believe 'the year of the linux desktop' has come already. I installed Pop! OS on new desktop friend gave me this year or end of last and with valve forking proton, dxvk, I haven't had much trouble running games. If there was a game that couldn't run, I'd probably create a virtual machine with hardware passthrough with W7 or W10 to be able to |
| 13:25 | < Yossarian> | play. |
| 13:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | C/++ are trickier but cross-compilation is a lot easier now than it was 20 years ago, so "develop on linux and cross-compile windows native binaries" is actually a viable development workflow, although it does require you to be careful with your libraries and stick to libc and OS-indepedent compatibility layers rather than making OS-specific syscalls |
| 13:26 | <~Vornicus> | as a person who used macs for a long time |
| 13:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | > If there was a game that couldn't run, I'd probably create a virtual machine with hardware passthrough with W7 or W10 to be able to play |
| 13:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | this is too big a lift for most people; if they have to learn how to set up a VM and buy a copy of windows to install inside to play their games, why not just install windows from the word go? |
| 13:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Proton is great but it still has a ways to go, especially since there is no convenient UI for applying game/specific tweaks like toggling esync or dxvk support. |
| 13:27 | <~Vornicus> | I take issue with the claim that osx is a superior platform to windows |
| 13:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | I prefer linux for most purposes but we are not yet at the point, I think, where it's a viable recommendation for someone who isn't interested in computer janitoring and just wants to Play Some Games, especially if they play games that aren't on Steam (because using Proton on non-Steam games is a huge pain). |
| 13:28 | < Yossarian> | The tasks most 'normal people' (note: not us) do don't necessarily require Windows, the only thing holding Linux and like OSes back are things like package management woes and things like that. Social media and editing documents. Even 'creatives' there are FOSS alternatives for DAW, video editing (not sure how good they are), graphics (GIMP and Krita), 3d modelling (Blender), ah... and |
| 13:28 | < Yossarian> | if not, there is always wine which due to how long it's been in dev and the help garnered by valve's support and porting of wine to proton... |
| 13:29 | < Yossarian> | <&ToxicFrog> this is too big a lift for most people; |
| 13:29 | < Yossarian> | Yeah, they don't want to really troubleshoot, they just want it to install and work. |
| 13:31 | < Yossarian> | And this doesn't even factor in the CLI applications which at many moments can be more powerful than editing suite for documents, say. Bundling PDFs together, got ffmpeg, imagemagick, so much good stuff... and some of that stuff is cross-platform. |
| 13:32 | < Yossarian> | but regarding virtualizing Windows on Linux -- WSL is to my understanding the opposite, virtualizing Linux on Windows? I think maybe not totally virtualized - I haven't tried it but cygwin wasn't so bad when I've had to use it |
| 13:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes, WSL is for running linux binaries on windows |
| 13:33 | <~Vornicus> | cygwin in my experience constantly gets in its own way |
| 13:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is why I was discussing it in the context of developing on linux and still supporting windows users |
| 13:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Before the whole thing about "year of the linux desktop" came up |
| 13:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have been using cygwin since 2001 or so and have generally been quite happy with it |
| 13:33 | <&[R]> | Does cygwin get around the manditory file lock issue? (Wondering if it could self-update) |
| 13:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although the existence of WSL may make it obsolete now |
| 13:35 | < Yossarian> | <&ToxicFrog> (because using Proton on non-Steam games is a huge pain) --> are you sure? I've pirated X4: Foundations (the steam version) and I know there is a way to invoke proton all by its lonesome but I was lazy and I went to my Steam client --> add non-steam game --> pointed to the game installed via my .wine / default wineprefix? (wineprefixes are still confusing to me) |
| 13:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: kind of sort of not really? It can self-update but if the update replaces cygwin1.dll stuff can get Weird until you restart all your cygwin processes |
| 13:36 | <&[R]> | Fair enough |
| 13:36 | < Yossarian> | The most annoying thing in the process I have for doing this and how I've done it is picking a Proton version that works with a particular game. Sometimes, you have go back a bit in terms of what version of proton to get the game to get going. |
| 13:37 | < Yossarian> | But I know about winedb and protondb and I'm vaguely familiar with winetricks and protontricks. |
| 13:39 | < Yossarian> | X4: Foundations is pretty resource intensive game and I popped in a faster but older video card (RX550 to R9 270x, both Polaris arch lol) and I don't think there are much losses running it via proton + dxvk, but that would be something interesting to measure. (X4 is notable because there is an actual linux binary release, except pirates typically don't pirate linux versions, so...) |
| 13:40 | < Yossarian> | I keep looking for game demos these days to see how general performance would go but developers don't seem to be into demos very much, any longer. |
| 13:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yossarian: everything you're saying here supports my position, so... |
| 13:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes, you know about rolling back the proton version per-game, you know about protondb and winedb, you know how to override proton settings per-game and you know how to use a system wine install to install non-steam windows games and then load them into steam |
| 13:41 | < Yossarian> | That's how I rationalize the piracy of the game, although... X4 is so stilted in it's developement and it's been out since 2018 and yet the developers have not done much to fix the terrible UI and other issues, but they've made the game very modular. |
| 13:42 | <~Vornicus> | meanwhile I'm over here all "wait, you have to do something other than install it and run it? too much work" |
| 13:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | None of that is knowledge necessary to run the game on windows (generally) (because game developers and distributors have put in an absolute shitload of effort over the past ~20 years to make it so); you click "install" and then once the loading bar fills you click "play". |
| 13:43 | < Yossarian> | <&ToxicFrog> ...you know how to override proton settings per-game... --> actually, I don't know how to do that. The concept of wineprefix is also confusing to me, I've never looked into it. |
| 13:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | And to be fair, that is also how the experience goes for games with native linux versions and games in steam where the Proton configuration is correct out of the box, but those are still a small minority of games (albeit a much larger minority than it used to be) |
| 13:46 | < Yossarian> | I should probably check out and learn how prefixes work and see how overriden dlls are applied and such, I've had issues with wine in the past because like Vornicus is saying, I lacked the patience and so I just started deleting .wine or query for answers in search engine |
| 13:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | So Linux is a fine recommendation for the "I'm ok with and perhaps even enjoy tinkering with my computer some to get things working optimally" demographic but not for the "I want my computer to basically be a gming console but with a mouse and keyboard" demographic |
| 13:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is all kind of skirting around the question that "year of the linux desktop" elides which is: linux desktop for whom? Different categories of users have very different needs. It's been the year of the linux desktop for me since my family switched from SCO UNIX to Red Hat more than 20 years ago. |
| 13:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | A wineprefix is basically a virtual windows install. Each one has its own drives, registry, system configuration, installed programs, etc. |
| 13:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | The default wineprefix is ~/.wine but you can create new ones as needed, which is useful for program isolation, especially for stuff that requires different bitness (32 vs 64) or stuff that requires specialized settings or DLL overrides. |
| 13:47 | < Yossarian> | That latter demographic might be those weirdos who play only single-player games exclusively or to be rather harsh, they're very close to being a 'console bro'. |
| 13:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tools like PlayOnLinux and Lutris will automatically manage wineprefixes (typically creating a different one with different settings for each game you install), and Proton uses a separate wineprefix for each game it runs. |
| 13:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | I suspect the latter demographic is actually going to be pretty multiplayer-heavy; MP shooters are Kind Of A Big Deal |
| 13:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | The top four games on steam right now, by logged in players, are CS:GO, DOTA 2, PUBG, and Apex Legends -- three multiplayer shooters and a moba. |
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| 13:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Unwinding the stack -- a lot -- to the original topic, I would say: develop on whatever system you're most comfortable using and write the programs you want to use. It's good to plan for portability but, especially when you're starting out, it's better to focus on writing something that does something rather than getting bogged down in planning to write the best thing. |
| 13:56 | <&[R]> | Just write shit |
| 13:56 | <&[R]> | I've completely rewritten my work stuff at least three times now |
| 14:03 | < Yossarian> | MP shooters used to be kind of a big deal, there are all sorts of wallhacks, aimbot, dynamic library hooks -- hell there is one on github! |
| 14:04 | < Yossarian> | why people feel the need to cheat at a multiplayer game is beyond me, I understand looking for legitimate edges and pushing the rules of a game, be it D&D or an FPS with a particular "feel" and quirks... but going out of your way so that nothing is a challenge, like... why? |
| 14:06 | < Yossarian> | do they also play casual chess online and have a chess AI engine running in the background to help them make all their moves, too? |
| 14:08 | < Yossarian> | I appreciate the effort into the thing, it's quite amazing... but then I suppose people sell their hacks I've heard about, much in the same way unknown but discovered CVE is sold to the competition or what have you. |
| 14:08 | <&[R]> | Because they're 11 |
| 14:10 | < Yossarian> | Except I've never bought a hack, I remember running one of the first wallhacks in Counter-Strike and it was cool that someone was able to reverse engineer the game to create this effect but in... in multiplayer, in a game of people being earnest, trying to have fun and also having some skill behind them in the game or genre... what the fuck? |
| 14:12 | < Yossarian> | I've thought about eventually reverse engineering X3 to be multiplayer in the same way GTA Vice City MP or SAMP were RE'd and tied together to make them multiplayer, but then the idea that someone most likely just cheat - it's a red vs blue technological race. |
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| 14:34 | < Yossarian> | function for cheating seems correlated to popularity, though |
| 15:39 | <~Vornicus> | don't like any of this code |
| 16:04 | < Yossarian> | which code? |
| 16:07 | <~Vornicus> | my code |
| 16:11 | < Yossarian> | :( |
| 16:32 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't like your code either. ;) |
| 16:35 | <~Vornicus> | :( |
| 16:37 | < catalyst_> | I like your code |
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| 16:39 | <~Vornicus> | :) |
| 16:48 | < Yossarian> | I think I found a dead process that didn't terminate properly |
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| --- Log closed Wed Aug 11 00:00:00 2021 |