| --- Log opened Sun Jun 27 00:00:09 2021 |
| 00:00 | | Emmy [Emmy@Nightstar-l49opt.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 01:21 | < catalyst> | I'm not trying to be a C++ expert any more and that's actually quite freeing |
| 01:21 | <&McMartin> | yay |
| 01:22 | < catalyst> | it's really not a very good language, but sadly still the best at almost everything you want it for |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | I unironically consider it a feature that C++ experts tend to like the language less, with their knowledge |
| 01:24 | < catalyst> | I went through several phases |
| 01:24 | < catalyst> | of loving it and hating it |
| 01:24 | < catalyst> | and eventually settled in pragmatic indifference |
| 01:25 | < catalyst> | tbh C++'s best feature has always been it's treatment of runtime and object lifetimes |
| 01:25 | < catalyst> | and, well |
| 01:25 | | * catalyst points at Rust |
| 01:25 | < catalyst> | I don't dislike it |
| 01:25 | < catalyst> | but I do consider myself wanting to be an expert in it bad for me specifically |
| 01:26 | < catalyst> | and I still consider it a clever person trap |
| 01:46 | <@sshine> | McMartin, does that mean you consider it a bug that Haskell experts tend to like the language more with their knowledge? |
| 01:47 | <@sshine> | catalyst, Rust is a clever person trap, or C++ is? |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | "Bug" is not the right word |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | But it is a danger |
| 01:50 | < catalyst> | C++ is, because its often hard to know if the fancy thing you're building is fancy, or if it's just a workaround to the problems the language brings with it |
| 01:54 | <@sshine> | C++ was always the language I vowed to never learn. not because I dislike it, but because of the complexity. |
| 01:56 | <@sshine> | but I suppose Haskell could be viewed as a clever person trap. maybe Monoid is justifiably simple, but beyond a certain point, I wonder if people are actually trying to solve or create problems. |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | Monoid is, as best I have extracted from your explanations, pretty to look at |
| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | If you actually are trying to develop a type to represent an actual task, you want some *other* typeclass. |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | The, uh |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | the actual failure mode that Haskell hit as a community, AIUI, though |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | was that its "industrial" uses ended up dominated by cryptocurrency |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | That isn't *necessarily* linked to monads being Very Pretty while SFINAE is a dumpster dire |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Particularly since I have come to understand that actually using the languages requires similar knowledge of both (viz. essentially zero, as you will be implementing classes that rely on or extend their specifics) |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | *will not be implementing |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | *fire |
| 02:26 | <@sshine> | McMartin, I don't see that as a failure. but I also don't see cryptocurrencies as something everyone cares to work on. |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | Since tone of voice does not make it over IRC, you may wish to replace "cryptocurrencies" there with "organized crime" for the full effect. |
| 02:28 | <@sshine> | haha |
| 02:28 | <@sshine> | ok |
| 02:30 | <@sshine> | if I were to commit organized crime that involved programming, I might just use Haskell. |
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| 06:29 | | * McMartin drives the refactor tractor into a lamppost |
| 06:32 | <~Vorntastic> | ??? |
| 06:33 | <&McMartin> | I'm splitting up code from one platform so that it can be multiplatform |
| 06:33 | <&McMartin> | It's making the code markedly uglier |
| 06:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Why a lamppost… |
| 06:37 | <&McMartin> | Big enough to wrap a tractor around, I guess? |
| 06:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Poor tractor. |
| 06:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Also poor lamppost. |
| 06:45 | <&McMartin> | It had it coming. |
| 06:45 | <&McMartin> | Hopefully it will be worth it |
| 06:45 | <&McMartin> | This is a pretty dumb stunt, but also it will probably take less than a month to get off the frickin' ground. |
| 06:45 | <&McMartin> | Unlike my previous project. |
| 07:04 | <&McMartin> | ... yes, yes that would indeed be much faster |
| 07:04 | | * McMartin gets a prototype running right now. |
| 07:11 | <&McMartin> | Good work, past me. |
| 07:16 | | * McMartin gets the prototype to the point where he'd be basically fine with shipping it, hrms |
| 07:16 | <&McMartin> | It's 4KB plus three bytes. |
| 07:17 | <&McMartin> | I could get it under 4KB trivially, but the easiest way to do that would be to remove the "Oh no!" from its one error message, and I don't really want to do that |
| 07:18 | | * McMartin tightens up some other phrasing, gets it to $FFB bytes, declares that Fine. |
| 07:18 | <~Vorntastic> | Could be a LAMPpost. Whatever you're doing turn it into a web service |
| 07:19 | <&McMartin> | no |
| 07:23 | <~Vorntastic> | Gosh. I'm still kinda grumpy about that tweet |
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| 10:59 | <@sshine> | have any of you relied on building Docker images, and then subsequently switched to something other than Docker? |
| 11:11 | <@sshine> | I was hoping for a mature solution that didn't require a Kubernetes cluster, because that'd be a convenient order to bootstrap this system. |
| 11:11 | <@sshine> | 'podman' is supposed to be able to work as a replacement, but apparently not for building images. |
| 11:11 | <@sshine> | https://github.com/GoogleContainerTools/kaniko -- requires Kubernetes, but actually seems very cool. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jun 28 00:00:10 2021 |