| --- Log opened Wed Nov 18 00:00:27 2020 |
| 00:00 | <&[R]> | It's insane how much time in a day we were doing shit that Windows just couldn't automate |
| 00:00 | <&[R]> | It was horrible |
| 00:01 | | * [R] wonders if the plasma desktop will work with WMII |
| 00:01 | <&[R]> | Time to find out |
| 00:16 | <&[R]> | The answer is both yes, and no |
| 00:16 | <&[R]> | plasmashell is apparently what it's called? |
| 00:16 | <&[R]> | It will run fullscreen by default, which is less than useful |
| 00:17 | <&[R]> | But if you kick it out of fullscreen it'll run in a window, which is also not super useful |
| 00:20 | <&[R]> | http://nobl.ca/1605658786.png <-- I remember it looking better, but that might be because I half-installed KDE |
| 00:20 | <&[R]> | It was actually a subtle little box, but still with its own scrollbar and icons |
| 00:23 | <&[R]> | Why the fuck is GIMP my default PDF viewer? |
| 00:23 | <&[R]> | What drunken invalid thought that was a reasonable default to foist upon me? |
| 00:24 | <&[R]> | (I was curious WTF xxx.pdf was) |
| 00:25 | < Mahal> | To be honest I think that if you're doing shit that Windows 'can't' handle, you have two options: |
| 00:25 | < Mahal> | 1) don't use Windows, then |
| 00:25 | < Mahal> | or 2) is there a better alternative to your workflow than whatever you think you should be doing that windows can't do? |
| 00:25 | < Mahal> | sometimes 2) is actually the answer, sometimes 1) is |
| 00:26 | <&[R]> | #2 is pretty much out of the window |
| 00:26 | <&[R]> | Our workflow involves taking in files from a CF card that our equipment writes too |
| 00:27 | <&[R]> | The directory we want is CF:/CONQUEST/EXPRT${XXX}/GRIDS/ where ${XXX} is the newest of those directories, and we don't always want everything in GRIDS, since we might have grabbed it from a previous export (since the thing just dumps everything from the current job) |
| 00:28 | <&[R]> | Then loading all of those in the program (it doesn't take filenames as arguments, and each "file" is actually a directory, so we're going up and down in the file open menu), I automated that out with xdotool, though I understand Windows does have third party stuff for this, but w/e |
| 00:31 | <&[R]> | Then reports are an entire other mess, which involves making a bunch of pictures out of our program (for reading the equipment's data) and actual photographs, resizing them so they look nice on the page with the text we have to put in. Ended up making scripts generate a LaTeX document, and create a PDF out of that. Saved a /ton/ of time, since resizing images in Word *sucked*, especially on 10+ image jobs (which would be 20+ pictures) |
| 00:32 | <&[R]> | The equipment and software paired with it kind of force a limited number of workflows, both reasonably automatable, just not something I'm willing to spend the time on Windows doing, when a shell script is loads faster |
| 00:34 | <&[R]> | Hell, I even through in some quality of life improvements, my import script will tell me if I missed scanning a direction before I even open the file (which is uncommon, but something I'd rather deal with and fix before I start shuffling through everything I've collected) |
| 00:34 | < Mahal> | empty the CF card after each export? or at least the grids folder? :P |
| 00:34 | < Mahal> | but yeah, sometimes workflows just suck and that's how it is |
| 00:35 | <&[R]> | <Mahal> empty the CF card after each export? or at least the grids folder? :P <-- that's an extra step, and we'd want to look at everything before we'd wipe the card |
| 00:35 | <&[R]> | But yeah, that would mean we could make a shortcut on the desktop |
| 00:37 | <&[R]> | Another two things that continually bit me about Windows: 1) MTP directories (when grapping the digitals from the camera) do not have the same copy/paste behavior as non-MTP directories (though spending time actually retraining myself to NOT close the window after copying would have fixed that, but who wants a window open that you're actually done with staying open?) |
| 00:38 | < Mahal> | "MTP directories"? |
| 00:38 | <&[R]> | Directories on an MTP device |
| 00:39 | < Mahal> | ah yeah, where closing the window borks up any open sessions |
| 00:40 | <&[R]> | 2) Manditory file locks. Since I'd often need to do a report for a job later (and not always know immediately) I'd keep our work files open, so I could do a report from them if needed (I'd close them after a few days), this was one of the number of things that would cause me to get frustrated, as I'd have the program open, it'd be CD'd into a directory I was done with and trying to archive, but it wouldn't let me move the folder. |
| 00:40 | <&[R]> | Also OneDrive was complete and utter trash, we lost 3-5 entire jobs worth of data |
| 00:41 | <&[R]> | Thankfully we never needed them again, but that's not something we should have had to deal with |
| 00:43 | <&[R]> | I guess to be fair, a number of problems stem from the software we have to use |
| 00:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | In my experience if you're doing "shit that windows can't handle" there's probably a very expensive piece of software that adds that feature |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | I believe Stardock actually offered this specific feature back in the day in the form of "windows fences", there may be a modern equivalent |
| 00:44 | <&[R]> | Windows fences? |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | If LiteStep is still around it probably has a module for that too, but setting it up is a major project in and of itself |
| 00:44 | < Mahal> | the desktop management thing |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | https://www.stardock.com/products/fences/ |
| 00:44 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 00:44 | <&[R]> | Yeah, that'd have been nice |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | "Fences can act as a portal to any folder on your PC. For example, your documents or pictures folders can be mirrored onto your desktop as a fence enabling quick access to their contents without adding clutter to your desktop." |
| 00:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re MTP/PTP, it's a total clusterfuck on any OS, you can't really blame that on windows |
| 00:46 | <&[R]> | Sure, but it looks like any other directory, but doesn't behave like a local one |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, this is also the case on linux and OSX last I checked |
| 00:46 | <&[R]> | The two other kinds of directories explorer supports also have their own stupid quirks too |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | (which hasn't been for a while, because I switched to using syncthing to talk to my phone) |
| 00:46 | <&[R]> | OH! |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | FUCK THANKS |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | YES |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | That's FOSS right? |
| 00:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | FUCK YES |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | I've been using adb to pull pictures from my phone |
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| 00:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | For one-off transfers it may be easier to just install an sftp client on the phone, but for recurring "there is a directory on my phone and I want a directory on my computer to contain the same things" or vice versa syncthing is excellent (I use it for dumping photos off my phone) |
| 00:47 | <&[R]> | But adb doesn't seem to have an option for "pull this directory down, but only the shit I don't have" |
| 00:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's a battery hog but you can also configure it to run only when plugged in or only when explicitly opened or the like |
| 00:48 | <&[R]> | So ATM I've been dealing with it pulling down every picture I've ever taken |
| 00:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | And yes it does incremental copies |
| 00:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and can be configured for either bi or unidirectional sync) |
| 00:50 | <&[R]> | But yeah, Windows and CIFS (or whatever they renamed it to now) |
| 00:51 | <&[R]> | So if there's any hiccup Windows will prompt you to enter your username and password again (this part is fine), but then it will change directory you back to the "root" of the share! |
| 00:52 | <&[R]> | So you could be browsing around a share, focused on something, then all of the sudden UN/PW prompt and BAM, you're back in the root |
| 00:52 | <&[R]> | And you have to figgure out where the heck you were and hope you don't forget what you were doing |
| 00:52 | <&[R]> | Then whatever the blue hells the did with search "directories" |
| 00:53 | <&[R]> | I can't be the only person who has wanted to just be in the REAL ACTUAL FUCKING DIRECTORY a file they searched for was in |
| 00:53 | | Pink [uid208117@Nightstar-h2b233.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 00:53 | <&[R]> | Like completely different behavior, for something "user friendly" |
| 00:54 | <&[R]> | The stupidest part about search is it actually used to work, but then they broke it |
| 00:54 | < Mahal> | you just ... right click on the search result & open file locatio |
| 00:54 | < Mahal> | that's not... complicated? |
| 00:54 | < Mahal> | been that way a long time |
| 00:54 | <&[R]> | That gets you to the real path, or the fake directory thing? |
| 00:55 | <&[R]> | Because there's definately a fake directory thing |
| 00:55 | < Mahal> | the real path |
| 00:55 | < Mahal> | I know about search directories :) |
| 00:56 | <&[R]> | Not that I use Windows anymore, but have a fix for the CIFS thing? |
| 00:57 | < Mahal> | Yes - don't use it, CIFS was always complete shit |
| 00:57 | <&[R]> | :p |
| 01:00 | <&[R]> | Did they ever fix the search thing where if you searched for something that was in a directory name, it'd just dump all the directory's contents into the search results? |
| 01:01 | <&[R]> | Because that was always super unhelpful |
| 01:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Mahal: there's no sshfs support for windows and its NFS client is even more spectacularly busted than CIFS, so...not a lot of options there |
| 01:01 | <&[R]> | (Might not have been that exact thing, but I definately remember having a ton of garbage there) |
| 01:01 | <&[R]> | Filezilla into SSH |
| 01:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, but that only works for filezilla |
| 01:02 | <&[R]> | That's what I ended up moving to when my NAS died |
| 01:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | It does not work if you want to be able to manipulate files on the remote machine without copying them locally, editing them, and then copying them back |
| 01:02 | <&[R]> | Fair enough |
| 01:02 | <&[R]> | By that point I exclusively was doing that |
| 01:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | Individual programs supporting sftp is not a replacement for an actual networked filesystem which is transparent to anything that uses fopen() et al |
| 01:02 | <&[R]> | (Though generally only one-way) |
| 01:02 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 01:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Meanwhile, I am trying to figure out why windows is fucking incapable of ever using the correct credentials to access CIFS shares but absolutely loves remembering the wrong ones |
| 01:03 | | * Mahal vaguely mumbles about the credential manager |
| 01:04 | <&[R]> | Other than RDP, is there anything about Windows that isn't trash? |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Type in the right login and it'll prompt me for it again on every boot |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Type in the wrong login and WHOOPS REMEMBERING THAT FOREVER SUCKS TO BE YOU |
| 01:04 | <&[R]> | lol |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | NT6's filesystem minifilters are a pretty solid design. |
| 01:05 | < Mahal> | I use Windows daily and have no particular issues, so |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | Windows is better about maintaining consistent ABIs, unlike the experience in Linux of having to recompile every program on the entire system when libc updates |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | "It's fine, you have the source for everything, right" |
| 01:07 | <&[R]> | <McMartin> NT6's filesystem minifilters are a pretty solid design. <-- basically mounted VFS'? |
| 01:07 | <&[R]> | I actually haven't had libc issues in a long while |
| 01:08 | <&[R]> | Though I def recall issues around the time Arch was souring on me |
| 01:08 | < Mahal> | anyway, the point of windows is that it mostly Just Works for the vast majority of consumers and businesses. people like [R] and ToxicFrog are not the vast majority |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | Unfamiliar with that tech, but it's basically a type of kernel module that lets you intercept I/O requests in a way where every interceptor can treat every other one as a black box |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | So transparent disk encryption &c is very, very simple to slot in even with everything closed-source as a third-party developer |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | One of my old employers had a product that was essentially a more sophisticated version of unionfs that was built on top of it. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | Windows has an "accidental" advantage over Linux there, which is that /etc is complete anarchy while the Registry is merely a wild frontier. |
| 01:10 | <&[R]> | VFS == virtual file system. So /sys /proc /dev (with a device manager) |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | Ah. Less that. It's more a way of modifying some full-scale filesystem to alter its behavior without actually patching it. |
| 01:11 | <&[R]> | The kernel docs specifically call them VFS' |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. I had a circuit crossed because VFS was also a name I associate with what I think is now the fat32 Linux drivers. |
| 01:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: what McMartin describes is more like an overlayfs you can install arbitrary filters into |
| 01:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Kind of like a generalized form of stuff like ecryptfs |
| 01:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | If I understand correctly |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | Pretty close, yeah |
| 01:12 | <&[R]> | FUSE? |
| 01:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | ....no |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | NT5 did not have this and hacking in fs overlays was a huge mess. |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | FUSE provides entire filesystems, and you can KIND of create an overlaid FS using it |
| 01:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | FUSE is a driver for writing filesystems without writing kernel code. Those can be, but are not required to be, overlay filesystems (sshfs is a FUSE module, for example) |
| 01:13 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 01:13 | <&[R]> | (I should've clarified I also view FUSE filesystems as VFS') |
| 01:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | (what you describe as "VFS" isn't what McM is describing, so it's irrelevant) |
| 01:14 | <&[R]> | Does Windows provide any overlays by default? |
| 01:14 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
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| 05:52 | <@sshine> | hehe |
| 05:53 | <@sshine> | I'm learning Chinese and I found someone who really wants to learn Danish in exchange. so much that she leaves "Am I pronouncing this correctly?" voice messages at 05:30 Chinese time. :-D |
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| 06:30 | <&McMartin> | Exciting! |
| 06:31 | <&McMartin> | My quarantine project earlier this year was to pick up enough Mandarin to plausibly pass the first Standard Chinese test |
| 06:31 | <&McMartin> | It turns out you can't actually *say* anything with that, though, beyond observing the fatness of cats and whatnot |
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| 08:16 | <&McMartin> | (那的猫很胖。) |
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| 08:38 | <&McMartin> | Hm. That should probably be 那只猫, actually. |
| 08:38 | <&McMartin> | Also as a Californian I'm more used to Traditional, but that just turns into blobs in a terminal font >_> |
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| --- Log closed Thu Nov 19 00:00:28 2020 |