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| 23:03 | <&Reiver> | Hey Mahal |
| 23:03 | <&Reiver> | Teams query |
| 23:03 | <&Reiver> | Can organisations link up between each other with Teams? |
| 23:03 | <&Reiver> | Like, we want a community board between a couple councils for a specific thingy that's going on, wondering if Teams is shiny |
| 23:07 | | Mahal [sid171286@Nightstar-a0t.9ff.184.192.IP] has joined #code |
| 23:07 | < Mahal> | Hello, how can I assist, Reiv |
| 23:07 | <~Vornicus> | hahaha |
| 23:07 | <&Reiver> | ... goddamnit |
| 23:07 | <&Reiver> | You're in, like, all my channels by default |
| 23:07 | | * Reiver tsk tsks |
| 23:07 | <&Reiver> | ahem |
| 23:08 | | * Vornicus points and laughs |
| 23:08 | <&Reiver> | Teams query |
| 23:08 | <&Reiver> | Can organisations link up between each other with Teams? |
| 23:08 | <&Reiver> | Like, we want a community board between a couple councils for a specific thingy that's going on, wondering if Teams is shiny |
| 23:08 | < Mahal> | I left #Code some time ago for reasons |
| 23:08 | | * Mahal eyes Reiv |
| 23:08 | <&Reiver> | ah legit, apologies |
| 23:08 | < Mahal> | um |
| 23:08 | < Mahal> | pardon me mocking you briefly but can you even google |
| 23:08 | <&Reiver> | There is what google sez |
| 23:08 | <&Reiver> | And then there is what Someone Know Knows sez |
| 23:09 | < Mahal> | short answer "yes of course it can, that's part of it's reason for existence", the longer answer is "depends on the policies your respective orgs have in place about collabs with other orgs |
| 23:09 | <&Reiver> | Let us just say I have lost a vast amount of faith in tickboxes on enterprise software |
| 23:09 | < Mahal> | and the latter part has nothing to do with what Teams can do and everything to do with internal politics |
| 23:09 | < Mahal> | and who's running it and who knows how to manage it and |
| 23:09 | < Mahal> | you know |
| 23:09 | < Mahal> | the usual |
| 23:09 | <&Reiver> | We are in fact looking at alternatives to the explicitly advertised and loudly boasted Community Communications feature in our /current/ enterprize stack as being Utterly Worthless~ |
| 23:09 | < Mahal> | what is your enterprise stack at present |
| 23:10 | <&Reiver> | TechOne |
| 23:10 | | * Mahal shrugs, dunno it |
| 23:10 | < Mahal> | so yes, Teams _can_ do all the above |
| 23:10 | <&Reiver> | You may run screaming if you've heard of it, and drink deeply of the River Styx if not that you need never hear the name again. |
| 23:10 | < Mahal> | the question has lots more to do with who's paying and what they want to do |
| 23:10 | <&Reiver> | But it is a "Kind of but not automatically", cool |
| 23:10 | < Mahal> | no the revers |
| 23:10 | < Mahal> | automatically yes collaborate do all the things share all the info widely what is security |
| 23:11 | <&Reiver> | One imagines hooking in people who aren't using Teams yet becomes Fraught with Complexity in who pays and/or letting them into our org permissions, yes? |
| 23:11 | <&Reiver> | riiiight gotcha |
| 23:11 | < Mahal> | nah the latter is easy |
| 23:11 | < Mahal> | who pays: you |
| 23:11 | <&Reiver> | We're going to end up on a web app again aren't we ;_; |
| 23:11 | < Mahal> | they jsut need to be added as guest accounts, you can do that with whatever email address floats your bopat |
| 23:12 | < Mahal> | the problem is fundamentally this |
| 23:12 | < Mahal> | Microsoft have, surprisingly, built a pretty decent collab product. |
| 23:12 | < Mahal> | what's the catch? if you want to have any level of oversight on what's being collabed with who, it's a pain in the ass to retrofit, and needs to be designed up front |
| 23:13 | < Mahal> | We managed to get in front of the train, and now we have a lovely framework for collaboration, tbh |
| 23:13 | < Mahal> | which is nice, but there are definitely orgs who have turned on the taps and now have no idea how to drink the Amazon |
| 23:13 | <&Reiver> | I... see |
| 23:14 | < Mahal> | also, have you heard of sharepoint? |
| 23:14 | < Mahal> | yeah |
| 23:14 | <&Reiver> | This would possibly explain why the Service Desk Lead in charge of the Teams deployment did not, in fact, turn it on for everyone all at once at the start of COVID, eh |
| 23:14 | < Mahal> | Teams = o365 groups = Sharepoint |
| 23:14 | < Mahal> | damn fucking _straight_ |
| 23:14 | < Mahal> | at the very least you need to stop your staff creating their own Teams |
| 23:14 | < Mahal> | because that way lies madness |
| 23:14 | <&Reiver> | We've all been killing off the nonfunctional app on our PC installs ever since >_> |
| 23:14 | < Mahal> | "but they need to be able to USE the tools!!" well yes of course they do, but uh |
| 23:14 | <&Reiver> | (It starts up automatically, then you have to close it down because we don't have it yet, whoops) |
| 23:15 | < Mahal> | do you really _need_ several hundred full o365 groups in your org by someone who wanted a Planner for their personal family calendar, or shopping list? I assume the answer is "no" |
| 23:15 | < Mahal> | so first you have to turn off creation by everyone |
| 23:15 | < Mahal> | then you need to decide who is allowed to create groups and _why_? |
| 23:15 | < Mahal> | what is the usecase that justifies it |
| 23:16 | < Mahal> | if they have a group should external parties have access by default (hint: if anything is confidential in there the answer probably needs to be no, but then what if they do need access?) |
| 23:16 | < Mahal> | what's your policy and requirements for third party access to your Teams and documents? |
| 23:16 | < Mahal> | is it acceptable to have gifs in meetings? |
| 23:16 | < Mahal> | all the communication is saved forever because of course it is |
| 23:16 | < Mahal> | so what happens if someone says somethig that's later legally discoverable in a group chat? |
| 23:17 | < Mahal> | what if someone makes a rude comment about a client that you later invite into the Team for their project and they see it? |
| 23:17 | < Mahal> | how do you manage your documents (remember I mentioned Sharepoint earlier? yeah they're Sharepoint document libraries) |
| 23:17 | <&Reiver> | ah, that part at least we're relatively used to with LGOIMA, but |
| 23:17 | <&Reiver> | aha, they'll have to stamp /that/ bit out very quickly |
| 23:18 | <&Reiver> | We have our Enterprise Solution providing us document management |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | You have something like 0.5gig storage per licensed user, plus ~500gig for the tenant |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | Ah, you don't |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | if you have a team, you have document libraries |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | the end |
| 23:18 | <&Reiver> | Correct |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | that's the entire structure of Teams |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | it's _built on Sharepoint_ |
| 23:18 | <&Reiver> | We will be... not doing that |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | Uh |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | you _will_ be doing that |
| 23:18 | < Mahal> | there is NO WAY TO DISABLE IT |
| 23:18 | <&Reiver> | Oh good |
| 23:18 | <&Reiver> | New policy implemented and a monthly sweep to clear the docs out then |
| 23:19 | <&Reiver> | yaaaay (now I see why they didn't enable it in any great hurry even as the org screamed out for collab tools) |
| 23:19 | < Mahal> | Okay - how do you collaborate with a third party _without_ document storage? |
| 23:19 | <&Reiver> | We use ECM. Or Email. |
| 23:19 | < Mahal> | the docs being in Sharepoint allows live collab on them, literally. |
| 23:19 | <&Reiver> | the two official discoverable platforms for collaboration. |
| 23:19 | < Mahal> | (unless they're docm files) |
| 23:19 | <&Reiver> | Which is to say: We're playing with govt bullshit here |
| 23:19 | < Mahal> | if you're not using the collab features of Teams why are you using Teams? |
| 23:19 | <&Reiver> | So we can /talk/, mostly |
| 23:19 | <&Reiver> | And take phone calls |
| 23:19 | <&Reiver> | Basically we want Skype~ |
| 23:20 | < Mahal> | what's your current VoiP solution? |
| 23:20 | < Mahal> | ah |
| 23:20 | < Mahal> | so, you can set up Teams without any "Teams" and just use the unified comms aspects, that's possible |
| 23:20 | < Mahal> | but you're basically crippling the toolset up front |
| 23:20 | <&Reiver> | We want to be able to have chatter rooms and the semi-forum teams stuff, mostly |
| 23:20 | < Mahal> | Which is fine, govt bullshit is what it is |
| 23:20 | <&Reiver> | One imagines the ability to share docs could be handy but All Docs Belong In The ECM System |
| 23:21 | < Mahal> | You won't get the latter, those are built on Teams-the-o365-groups, not Teams-the-chat-client |
| 23:21 | <&Reiver> | (they don't, we have a J:) |
| 23:21 | < Mahal> | you'll get calls, ad-hoc chatting, meetings |
| 23:21 | < Mahal> | but none of the more persistent stuff, as that's built around the Teams-o365-groups |
| 23:21 | <&Reiver> | right |
| 23:21 | <&Reiver> | It'll be fun I tell ya |
| 23:21 | < Mahal> | Yep |
| 23:21 | <&Reiver> | Because our Enterprise Solution does not talk to o365 |
| 23:21 | < Mahal> | You also won't be able to use Most of the o365 Suite, like Planner for project management. |
| 23:21 | <&Reiver> | 'cept when it does |
| 23:21 | <&Reiver> | (We got a custom plugin built) |
| 23:22 | <&Reiver> | Ah |
| 23:22 | <&Reiver> | We're using Planner right now |
| 23:22 | <&Reiver> | As an internal thing |
| 23:22 | <&Reiver> | So this says a lot methinks |
| 23:22 | <&Reiver> | woo |
| 23:22 | < Mahal> | Right, so |
| 23:22 | < Mahal> | Planner |
| 23:22 | < Mahal> | is part of o365 groups |
| 23:22 | < Mahal> | which means that fundamentally you already have Teams, ish |
| 23:22 | < Mahal> | with sharepoint libraries |
| 23:22 | <&Reiver> | "There is no plan yet but we're doing the fullblown system but not allowed to use the 'files' part of it, good luck with that" |
| 23:22 | < Mahal> | but possibly you've not turned on "Teams" for them |
| 23:23 | <&Reiver> | Well to be fair it is currently just the IT prototype we're faffing with |
| 23:23 | < Mahal> | and you're frantically trying to get people to just use the web-planner interface |
| 23:23 | < Mahal> | Like, not to be an ass here, but I will be an ass |
| 23:23 | < Mahal> | Microsoft expects you to drink all of the koolaid, and the suite is not a buffet |
| 23:23 | < Mahal> | you can't pick the bits you want and ignore the fundamental backbone of technology that underlies it. |
| 23:24 | <&Reiver> | Yup |
| 23:24 | < Mahal> | (with the sort of exception of the comms stuff, which you can mostly do without Groups) |
| 23:24 | <&Reiver> | TechOne does the same, including open hostility to 3rd party integration |
| 23:24 | < Mahal> | Well yeah, they'll be fighting off the M365 world and praying not to lose customers to the world's biggest enterprise IT provider. |
| 23:25 | <&Reiver> | So we have two behemoths - one real, one liking to think it is - that will be an eternal friction point |
| 23:25 | <&Reiver> | Their ace in the hole is that o365 does not, yet, have a CRM or billing engine |
| 23:25 | < Mahal> | Uh |
| 23:25 | < Mahal> | probably correct on the billing engine, wrong on the CRM |
| 23:25 | < Mahal> | (although it's a lot shit and probably not fit for purpose for your type of employer) |
| 23:25 | <&Reiver> | Yeah I was, uh, synonyming there |
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| 23:26 | <&Reiver> | Phonecalls -> People -> Properties -> Liscences/Consents/Etc |
| 23:26 | <&Reiver> | The last bit is where things get rapidly hairy if the software isn't built for it~ |
| 23:27 | < Mahal> | Yeah, the MS solutions won't be up for that yet, AFAIK |
| 23:27 | < Mahal> | but i guarantee you MS are in the process of buying someone who is :D |
| 23:27 | <&Reiver> | hahah |
| 23:27 | <&Reiver> | That would be a... trip |
| 23:27 | <&Reiver> | All the property & rating systems out there are bespoke crap |
| 23:27 | <&Reiver> | All of them |
| 23:27 | <&Reiver> | No exceptions |
| 23:28 | <&Reiver> | And the ones that like to think they aren't end up being dismal bonfire failures of customisable solutions that never quite fit the boxes right |
| 23:28 | <&Reiver> | (Yes, people have tried to configure SAP to do it) |
| 23:28 | <&Reiver> | (It has... not gone well~) |
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| 23:41 | <&Reiver> | anyhoo, cheers |
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| 23:46 | < Mahal> | I got distracted by a work thing |
| 23:46 | < Mahal> | anyone here an Excel nerd and know how to solve something for me |
| 23:47 | < Mahal> | y'know how if you enter a long number e.g. 7006433663521 Excel will insist on displaying it at 7.00643E+12 |
| 23:47 | < Mahal> | I do not want that to happen |
| 23:47 | < Mahal> | and I have ~6000 entries in this csv where Excel is doing it |
| 23:47 | < Mahal> | and I do not like it |
| 23:47 | < Mahal> | how do I make it not happen |
| 23:49 | < Mahal> | the fuck |
| 23:49 | < Mahal> | you specifically store it as a "Number" to stop it displaying like that |
| 23:49 | < Mahal> | what the hell Excel |
| 23:59 | <~Vornicus> | that's the display format. Note that numbers with more than 16 digits will not store correctly. You can also store as Text |
| --- Log closed Fri Jun 05 00:00:04 2020 |