| --- Log opened Tue Jun 02 00:00:38 2020 |
| 01:11 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-1drtbs.anu.edu.au] has joined #code |
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| 02:04 | <@sshine> | I was making a small dice-rolling simulator, and I had to decide on a syntax, and I accidentally made it a little too generic; d(d6) is rolling a 1-6-sided die, which is fine, I guess, so (d6)d6 is rolling 1-6 6-sided dice. |
| 02:05 | <@sshine> | but where it gets funky is (2d6)d6 which is, uh, a 1-6-sided die, and another 1-6-sided die. |
| 02:06 | <&[R]> | wat |
| 02:06 | <@sshine> | yeah I'm not sure, I'm just trying to make sense of it. :) |
| 02:06 | <~Vornicus> | no that's 2-12 6-sided dice |
| 02:06 | <&[R]> | Yeah, that's why I was confus |
| 02:06 | <@sshine> | 2d6 is not the same as 1d6 + 1d6 |
| 02:06 | <~Vornicus> | ...yes it is? |
| 02:06 | <@sshine> | no, dice rolls don't always imply sums. |
| 02:07 | <~Vornicus> | ??!? |
| 02:07 | <~Vornicus> | Under what interpretation does it not do what I described |
| 02:07 | <@sshine> | so for example New World of Darkness dice rules say roll N d10, and 8, 9 and 10 count as successes. |
| 02:07 | <@sshine> | ohhh |
| 02:07 | <~Vornicus> | Okay fine but that's not shown as 2d6 |
| 02:08 | <&[R]> | ^ |
| 02:08 | <@sshine> | right, I get it. |
| 02:12 | <@sshine> | okay, so when the left-hand side of 'd' results in multiple dice, a sensible thing would be to sum them or report a type error. |
| 02:13 | <~Vornicus> | basically any time you use d you want to roll multiple dice |
| 02:13 | <~Vornicus> | er, add them |
| 02:13 | <~Vornicus> | I have literally never seen d notation used for rolling dice and *not* summing them |
| 02:14 | <@sshine> | oh, I can give an example of that |
| 02:14 | <@sshine> | https://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/troll.msp -- remove the 'sum' part :) |
| 02:15 | <~Vornicus> | ok so you've found a thing that calculates dice that makes the same lack-of-assumption you do |
| 02:15 | <@sshine> | yes, this is what I base my notation on. I'd like for this to work for multiple dice-rolling systems. |
| 02:15 | <~Vornicus> | but the problem is |
| 02:15 | <@sshine> | if I imply sums, this drastically reduces expressibility. |
| 02:17 | <@sshine> | so this Troll languages says (2d6)d6 is a type error. |
| 02:17 | <@sshine> | because the type of 2d6 isn't a number but an array of two numbers. |
| 02:18 | <@sshine> | whereas (sum 2d6)d6 would be equivalent to your preferred semantics. |
| 02:18 | <~Vornicus> | You need to find an *actual system* - not Troll because I'm asking the same question of Troll - where the summation is not implied |
| 02:19 | <@sshine> | WoD? |
| 02:19 | <~Vornicus> | Don't use the d notation |
| 02:20 | <~Vornicus> | That's the challenge. If you wish to assume the d notation does not mean a sum you need to show that there is an actual system that uses the d notation but doesn't mean sum |
| 02:20 | <@sshine> | let's say you're roleplaying on discord and your dice bot lets you do this. what notation would you like for rolling five ten-sided dice (disregard the language having enough expressivity to also count the successes). |
| 02:20 | <@sshine> | no, all I need to assume is a useful scenario in which the 'd' does not need to imply the sum. |
| 02:20 | <&Reiver> | FWIW, always show the dice |
| 02:21 | <&Reiver> | That way someone can 'incorrectly' use your system and still have the useful numbers on hand. |
| 02:21 | !Deepthought.Nightstar.Net *** Reiver invited PainBot into the channel |
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| 02:21 | <&Reiver> | !d10,10 |
| 02:21 | <@PainBot> | [Reiver] rolled "d10,10": (1), (9), (5), (10), (3), (7), (6), (6), (5), (1). Total: 1 9 5 10 3 7 6 6 5 1. |
| 02:21 | <&Reiver> | !10d10 |
| 02:21 | <@PainBot> | [Reiver] rolled "10d10": (5+8+10+7+8+4+10+9+6+5). Total: 72. |
| 02:21 | <&Reiver> | !10d10,10 |
| 02:21 | <@PainBot> | [Reiver] rolled "10d10,10": (6+4+7+7+9+5+4+7+3+9), (9+1+9+8+8+9+2+8+3+10), (7+6+4+1+10+6+1+5+5+9), (6+6+9+9+3+9+7+1+2+2), (2+6+1+7+4+2+10+5+7+4), (7+9+5+6+6+9+3+6+6+4), (6+10+3+8+9+7+8+6+9+3), (9+5+9+10+8+5+8+2+3+2), (8+2+3+5+5+8+9+8+8+2), (5+5+2+8+3+1+8+2+1+5). Total: 61 67 54 54 48 61 69 61 58 40. |
| 02:22 | <&Reiver> | questions? |
| 02:22 | <@sshine> | what does the ,10 signify? |
| 02:22 | <~Vornicus> | ten times |
| 02:22 | <&Reiver> | I had hope that would be revealing from the examples, but yes, "Ten times" |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | !3d6,6 |
| 02:23 | <@PainBot> | [Reiver] rolled "3d6,6": (2+2+4), (5+3+6), (2+4+1), (2+3+4), (1+4+6), (1+4+1). Total: 8 14 7 9 11 6. |
| 02:23 | <@sshine> | I guess the 'd' notation is from D&D |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | Enjoy your crappy wizard |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | correct |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | Which always sums |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | And explicitly denotes multiples |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | eg, "Damage 2x 1d4+2" |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | or whatever |
| 02:23 | <&Reiver> | comma works |
| 02:23 | <@sshine> | mhmm, okay. |
| 02:24 | <&Reiver> | In the case of WoD, notice even the 10d10 is usable because the dice totals are available |
| 02:24 | <~Vornicus> | And it has been adapted into other systems, but I have literally never once seen adb used as "sum of a b-sided dice" |
| 02:24 | <&Reiver> | So you can just read them directly if you muss up |
| 02:24 | <@sshine> | I would have liked to use comma to signify "and also roll" as in a tuple or list separator. |
| 02:24 | <~Vornicus> | Schlockian used # for that |
| 02:24 | <~Vornicus> | but Schlockian was a shitshow |
| 02:25 | <&Reiver> | Ah yes, it was '3d6#6' for the above |
| 02:25 | <~Vornicus> | well, 6#3d6 |
| 02:25 | <&Reiver> | oh |
| 02:25 | <&Reiver> | Right, I forget my notation these days |
| 02:25 | <&Reiver> | Been a while. |
| 02:25 | | * Reiver salutes the Old Guard valiantly. |
| 02:25 | <~Vornicus> | Oh noes you don't know how to use a terrible language used by one bot and have to defer to the creator~ |
| 02:25 | <@sshine> | Reiver, right, so if you always print individual dice and their sums, 10d10 means both the individual dice and the sum. |
| 02:26 | <&Reiver> | Well, it means the sum |
| 02:26 | <&Reiver> | But by showing your working, it lets the player use the entropy for their own purposes. |
| 02:26 | <&Reiver> | Also useful in cases where they have special abilities |
| 02:26 | <&Reiver> | eg, "Any 1 you roll for damage becomes a 2" etc |
| 02:26 | <@sshine> | so if I were using your bot in a WoD campaign, I could get away with 10d10 rather than 10d10,10 and both save space typing and reading the result. |
| 02:26 | <&Reiver> | (Literally a feature in D&D 5e, rubbish as it is) |
| 02:27 | <&Reiver> | In theory, yes, but it's still good to use the d10,10 |
| 02:27 | <&Reiver> | !d10,10 |
| 02:27 | <@PainBot> | [Reiver] rolled "d10,10": (5), (1), (7), (10), (3), (1), (6), (5), (6), (9). Total: 5 1 7 10 3 1 6 5 6 9. |
| 02:27 | <&Reiver> | It is much clearer, for one |
| 02:27 | <~Vornicus> | (that ability is worth +1/x where x is the size of the die in question) |
| 02:27 | <&Reiver> | But if you messed up you don't 'ruin the roll' |
| 02:28 | <&Reiver> | (To be fair, the /real/ point of that ability is it comes bundled with 'you may ignore resistance against this element') |
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| 02:30 | <~Vornicus> | (Schlockian had far, far too many operators, a branching system based on the ?: conditional operator, a super terse syntax, and ...stopped working in python 2.2 because True became a quasi-keyword) |
| 02:30 | <@sshine> | hehe |
| 02:31 | < catalyst_> | gosh |
| 02:31 | <@sshine> | I didn't know about Schlockian, but I also think Torben Mogensen's Troll has a bit too complex syntax. I wouldn't say that his choice of 3d6 meaning "three six-sided dice" (and not their sum) is a 'complex choice' as much as it's simply a break of tradition. |
| 02:31 | <~Vornicus> | and it's a break in tradition that explicitly makes things harder |
| 02:31 | <~Vornicus> | can't just say 2d6+4 |
| 02:32 | <@sshine> | unless '+' coerces its sides to be sums, like the left-hand side of 'd' could. and this may be the first fallacy of doing something very complex. |
| 02:33 | <@sshine> | I think this is one of Perl's worse design choices, contexts. |
| 02:33 | < catalyst_> | wait, since when does anyone say xdy and not mean a sum? |
| 02:33 | <@sshine> | haha |
| 02:33 | <@sshine> | since about five minutes before you joined, in the context of this channel. :-D |
| 02:34 | <@sshine> | but in a larger context, since Torben Mogensen made https://topps.diku.dk/torbenm/troll.msp some decades ago. |
| 02:36 | <@sshine> | I'm convinced that 2d6+4 should refer to the sum to make even the most basic rolls sane. and I think my idea of doing it bears complexity with it. |
| 02:36 | <@sshine> | so what I was aiming for wasn't perhaps "the most useful dice rolling bot", since there are so many already. I was thinking "maybe if I generalise the syntax a bit, I'll get a nice algebra." |
| 02:36 | <~Vornicus> | but schlockian -- v2, really, because it was just an expression evaluator, and then held over for v3 -- was that d counted as multiplication as far as priority and signature goes |
| 02:37 | <~Vornicus> | (though unlike multiplication, it is not constexpr) |
| 02:37 | <~Vornicus> | (and also it had a prefix mode) |
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| 02:42 | <@sshine> | I can't seem to find Schlockian anywhere, is that a former dice-rolling bot for an IRC channel? |
| 02:45 | <&Reiver> | It was. Vorn's. |
| 02:45 | <&Reiver> | Seriously though the inability to use XdY+Z sensibly on troll has left it unuseful to me for a very long time |
| 02:46 | <&Reiver> | I understand it has 'sum' as an operator |
| 02:46 | <&Reiver> | But the point you get to doing that you're not a dicebot any more you're doing your own thing |
| 02:46 | <&Reiver> | I would reccomend not following that syntax for your dicebot |
| 02:46 | <&Reiver> | Because a Greatswords weapno damage in D&D is 2d6 |
| 02:46 | <&Reiver> | That *is* summed. |
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| 02:51 | <@sshine> | well, I'm not making a dice bot. |
| 02:51 | <@sshine> | I'm making a DSL. |
| 02:51 | <@sshine> | I'm doing this so I get an excuse to play with a statistics library. |
| 02:52 | <@sshine> | I agree that prepending 'sum' to all your D&D rolls makes the language particularly less useful for a lot of situations. |
| 02:53 | <@sshine> | and I agree with the point of not having a dice-rolling syntax for any other game than D&D is also less useful for a lot of situations. |
| 02:54 | <@sshine> | I don't find Troll's + being an array operator as particularly intuitive or useful. |
| 02:54 | <@sshine> | useful in the sense that you don't need an explicit 'map' operator. |
| 02:57 | <&Reiver> | Accept that there is no statistical standard. |
| 02:57 | <&Reiver> | And the ones that already exist are already terrible. |
| 02:57 | <&Reiver> | If you must have a divider for tuples, perhaps ; ? It does suggest a pause in syntax between differing rolls. |
| 02:58 | <&Reiver> | After all, it entirely depends what you want the syntaxt to let you do. |
| 02:58 | <&Reiver> | !4d6l,6 |
| 02:58 | <@PainBot> | [Reiver] rolled "4d6l,6": (5+1+4+2-1), (2+3+1+3-1), (6+3+3+5-3), (1+2+1+6-1), (2+6+3+1-1), (3+2+2+2-2). Total: 11 8 14 9 11 7. |
| 02:59 | <@sshine> | what does the l do? |
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| 03:00 | <@sshine> | !4d6,6 |
| 03:00 | <@PainBot> | [sshine] rolled "4d6,6": (6+5+3+5), (6+4+1+2), (5+5+2+4), (5+6+1+1), (6+5+5+3), (4+3+3+2). Total: 19 13 16 13 19 12. |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | 4d6 drop lowest |
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| 03:02 | <@sshine> | ah, so 4d6l,6 would be 'sum largest 3 4d6' in Troll, which is hardly as convenient, but more flexible wrt. expressing variations. |
| 03:03 | <&Reiver> | Sure. |
| 03:04 | <&Reiver> | If you want only a statistical engine, then troll's functionality is probably the more flexible - you're not after readability or standards, but flexibility in intent. |
| 03:04 | <&Reiver> | This is not, however, something useful to you in a Discord chat. |
| 03:04 | <&Reiver> | And breaks with the most common and standard nomenclature in dice theory everywhere. |
| 03:07 | <@sshine> | so what I'm thinking is that I'd prefer expressivity in the underlying language, but brevity in the actual syntax used for particular roleplaying campaigns. I think the 'ten again, ones are botches' oWoD rolls are notoriously difficult to express in Troll. |
| 03:07 | <@sshine> | I might actually like to employ some syntax like '5d10t6' to mean an oWoD roll at target 6, and to have some house-ruling of how 1s and 10s work implied. |
| 03:18 | <&Reiver> | The historical approach has often ended up being having one command per system |
| 03:18 | <&Reiver> | !exalted 10 |
| 03:18 | <@PainBot> | [Reiver] rolled (10 10 9 7 4 8 3 3 9 8). Successes (TN 7) = 9. |
| 03:18 | <&Reiver> | etc |
| 03:18 | <&Reiver> | That's great for a dice bot but not great for a stats engine |
| 03:19 | <&Reiver> | Also your syntax, just to check |
| 03:19 | <&Reiver> | Manages 2d6+4 sanely, correct |
| 03:20 | <&Reiver> | In "Roll 2d6, sum them and add 4"? |
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| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | EA has officially released the source code for C&C1 and Red Alert. https://github.com/electronicarts/CnC_Remastered_Collection |
| 05:40 | <&McMartin> | And God help me, I opened one of the asm files and could actually read it |
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| 06:32 | <@macdjord> | McMartin: May Knuth have mercy on your soul. |
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| 12:34 | <~Vornicus> | https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/474705430434807819/717328104347140176/unknown.png cursor now lands where I tell it. Now I just need to figure out what to tell it... |
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| 13:38 | <@sshine> | I have a method .ChangePriceQty(decimal price, decimal qty) and have decided to change this to .AddQtyAtPrice(decimal qty, decimal price) which reveals to me how vulnerable this method really is. what's a good approach to making this more type-safe without sacrificing too much performance? I'd prefer to avoid too much boxing and unboxing, since this happens *a lot*. |
| 13:39 | <@sshine> | in Haskell I'd use 'newtype' which lets me wrap numbers in a way that has no cost at runtime. I'm wondering what a good approximation of that is in C#. |
| 14:12 | <@sshine> | the best way I can come up with is creating a named 'struct' early on and pass it around. |
| 14:12 | <@sshine> | that will cost, but hopefully memory management can be gentle with me with it being immutable. |
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| 14:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Ugh |
| 14:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Horay, old legacy C code. |
| 14:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Better yet, 4573 lines of it, in one big file. |
| 15:29 | <@abudhabi> | Reminds me of that video code reviewing the reverse-engineered code of Yandere Simulator. |
| 16:21 | <@sshine> | TheWatcher, at least that's probably a full program? |
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| 16:23 | <@TheWatcher> | moooostly, there's a couple of hundred lines in another .c and 5 .h files it uses. Altogether comes to 4895 lines. |
| 16:25 | <@TheWatcher> | If nothing else, I'm planning to rip it apart into separate source files for something approaching sanity |
| 16:36 | < Yossarian> | <@abudhabi> Reminds me of that video code reviewing the reverse-engineered code of Yandere Simulator. --> It was reverse engineered (to some degree?) |
| 16:37 | < Yossarian> | Apparently, the original XBOX OS source code was leaked sometime recently. |
| 16:37 | <&[R]> | It wasn't recent |
| 16:37 | <&[R]> | That's just a repeat |
| 17:08 | <@abudhabi> | Yossarian: I know nothing about it, really. It just popped up in my recommendations one day. I have learned many things, but I doubt there is much utility in knowing why breast sizes are updated every frame. |
| 17:14 | < Yossarian> | Heh. |
| 17:15 | <~Vornicus> | https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/474705430434807819/717407973055397918/Pick.gif it seems to miss sometimes, but pickers gonna pick |
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| 17:18 | <@abudhabi> | Vornicus: Seems about as good as it works in modern games. |
| 17:21 | <~Vornicus> | it's worse in other places. I haven't figured out what's going on but oh boy it's bad sometimes. |
| 17:22 | <~Vornicus> | This particular spot is pretty cherry picked. |
| 17:52 | | catalyst_ [catalyst@Nightstar-v6lb30.cable.virginm.net] has joined #code |
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| 18:33 | < Emmy> | 0.o |
| 19:45 | < Yossarian> | I think I like this channel a lot, even though I get the feeling I'm not well liked or a relatively unknown quantity. |
| 19:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | You are certainly an unknown quantity to some. |
| 19:45 | < Yossarian> | I think I like it so much, I'm going to depart from my old one. |
| 19:54 | <~Vornicus> | your FACE is an unknown quantity |
| 19:55 | <&McMartin> | If we seem distant, we do try to keep this Not A Social Channel. |
| 20:05 | <&McMartin> | Nightstar kind of defaults to more social channels and technical/topic ones are the secondary outgrowths, so a lot of the informal attitudes are kind of the opposite of, say, Freenode. |
| 20:05 | <&McMartin> | IME, anyway |
| 20:13 | | Pink [user1@Nightstar-g7hdo5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 20:46 | < Yossarian> | McMartin: That's not a bad thing. Nothing wrong with being a little social, either... the channel which I'm departing has "code" in the name yet the subject never seems to come up. |
| 20:47 | < Yossarian> | Nor anything technical, unless one of several members who are really intelligent and skilled are on and talking about one of their projects, which is always a treat. But it's rare. |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jun 03 00:00:39 2020 |