| --- Log opened Tue Oct 29 00:00:10 2019 |
| 00:00 | < Yossarian> | in The Realm or atleast afterwards when I tried it after Sierra sold it off to someone else, you have the option of hitting alt-F4 to avoid the big death in PVP and maybe vs. mobs, kinda bleh |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm getting echoes of "you know what's great? Deleting player's savegames when they fuck up or poke their character's nose where they shouldn't" |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | And then not actually building the game around this, which at minimum means that almost the entire game is procgen |
| 00:01 | < Yossarian> | uncle and his fiance were "jumpers", their house had tons of supposedly "rare" sword, it was red and suddenly wasn't so rare anymore |
| 00:02 | < Yossarian> | also the Realm allowed you to color items and with a level 2 spell to rename them, internet was new for a lot of people, and scamming was a thing until they fixed up the trading system, but some players were so lavishly rich they literally gave stuff away in town, not sure how |
| 00:04 | < Yossarian> | eh, to be fair I was a very very young kid (8?) and on dialup and my uncle and I got jumped from someone hiding behind a tree and actually my uncle PM'd him and said "Wow, how did you kick my ass like that? That was amazing." and he gave him advice on particular spell and what to level up in |
| 00:04 | < Yossarian> | remember this was... 1995? 1996? |
| 00:05 | < Yossarian> | I understand anti-PVP sentiment and people not wanting to be punished, especially if they have to pay ISP (at the time, pay the phone bill) and subscription but at the same time, I feel lotsa multiplayer games aren't simply dangerous enough. My uncle has changed like that, too. |
| 00:06 | < Yossarian> | He refuses to play any non-cooperative game. Strategy or otherwise. I got better than him at FPS and *some* strategy games but he'd whoop me in Civilization or certain strat games like Steel Panthers and such. |
| 00:09 | < Yossarian> | If you're a mild fan of FPS and like cooperation, SWAT 3 and SWAT 4 were amazing. The AI was very quick and I played it with my ex-fiance who wasn't any FPS wizard by any stretch of the imagination. It's very fun and team building, I think. |
| 00:10 | < Yossarian> | Although she whooped my ass in HLDM, I had a stupid netbook at the time which struggled with damned Half-Life. Half-Life! You know, GoldSrc, Quake 2 modified engine HL. |
| 00:12 | < Yossarian> | But you hate "griefers" or PVP, okay fine. Don't hold it against me. After WoW I simply felt MMOs weren't dangerous anymore. Just playing virtual Skinner's Box, but trust me on the SWAT4 thing. One of the best cooperative FPS I've had the pleasure. You play as SWAT team and you have tools like breaching, mirrors, can't shoot first and ask questions later, got hostages & unarmed suspects. |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | I didn't actually pass judgement on the practice of griefing |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | I merely observed that past a certain size, if griefing is permitted at all by the game, that will be the only thing that the game is about |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | Because there will be Enough Players to ensure that any attempt to accomplish anything else gets destroyed by griefers before it does. |
| 00:14 | < Yossarian> | SW:G had a pretty good balance of PvP, if you choose to join a faction you could wear disguise and if you were an indie you could forgo getting jumped but as soon as you joined Rebels or Empire, you were fair game in certain areas. Player built cities were a thing but I didn't play long enough to see them blossom |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | EVE got around this both by being incredibly huge, by having in-game resources that basically let you pick when pitched battles would happen by making your strongholds literally invincible until a preset time, and by having developers secretly feed extremely powerful designs and farming areas to favored guilds. |
| 00:16 | < Yossarian> | and in the beginning the player economy was slow as heck |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | PVP was never flagged off but in certain areas picking fights brought in huge AI battleships to trash you |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | ... so once guilds got wealthy enough they'd go build an endless series of cheap enough ships to take down noob ships before the cavalry arrived and basically launch suicide attacks for the lulz |
| 00:17 | < Yossarian> | I liked the support skills/class levels, you could play music for buffs and health and you'd usually get tips |
| 00:17 | < Yossarian> | in SW:G |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah, the other interesting thing EVE did is that AIUI the only way you actually got skills was by being logged out |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | That was when your character was studying/training |
| 00:18 | <@Tamber> | iirc, your skills did still train while you were logged in. |
| 00:19 | <@Tamber> | It's just that, if you were training & speccing a character for a specific thing, especially if it was an alt, then there'd probably not be much need to actually log in other than to keep the training queue filled. |
| 00:28 | < Yossarian> | so you'd go to the Cantina in the local city (non-player but I imagine when player cities popped up on servers they had Cantinas) and get buffs, the players would get experience in that for doin it |
| 00:29 | < Yossarian> | funniest thing is uncle and I just joined the Empire, got first perks (you could summon Stormtroopers kinda like Pokemon, did low damage, relatively, but had high health) and ran into a player on Rebel faction, he kinda outgunned us, when I we were low on health I had been working towards building construction |
| 00:30 | < Yossarian> | and I was able to plop down a house in the middle of combat and hide in it, and doesn't the rebel player do the same? LOL, being inside with no LOS we couldn't fire on each other, eventually we all withdrew from each other and signed out for the night |
| 00:31 | < Yossarian> | next day or two, guess who I see in friendly/non-pvp town? |
| 00:31 | < Yossarian> | I /waved him and he /waved me and we both greeted each other with a "Howdy, neighbor!" |
| 00:32 | | celmin|away is now known as celticminstrel |
| 00:32 | < Yossarian> | probably the last hilarious and unique moment in an MMO I can recall. WoW was very grindy for me, third and final character was a priest/healer, I was very good at predicting when a party member would need a heal; played so long and working in raids that the green of the health bar kinda burned into my retina for some time, heh heh |
| 00:41 | < Yossarian> | but that fight in SW:G in the desert and both of us plopping our houses down, good times |
| 00:41 | < Yossarian> | <Yossarian> funniest thing is uncle and I just joined the Empire, got first perks (you could summon Stormtroopers kinda like Pokemon, did low damage, relatively, but had high health) and ran into a player on Rebel faction, he kinda outgunned us, when I we were low on health I had been working towards building construction |
| 00:41 | < Yossarian> | erm |
| 00:41 | < Yossarian> | fuck sorry |
| 00:41 | < Yossarian> | <&McMartin> Oh yeah, the other interesting thing EVE did is that AIUI the only way you actually got skills was by being logged out |
| 00:42 | < Yossarian> | How does Eve play, any good? I couldn't find a way to invest time into an MMO nowadays |
| 00:43 | <@Tamber> | I haven't played in years, and even then I never got all that deep into it. |
| 00:43 | <@Tamber> | But my experience was "lots of boredom, punctuated by brief terror" |
| 00:43 | < Yossarian> | Especially since Blizzard has shown a pattern. The people who get the game early and work hard get screwed. |
| 00:44 | < Yossarian> | When the DLC comes out or nerf day and as time progresses, people starting new level up way faster. |
| 00:45 | <@celticminstrel> | [Oct 28@7:05:43pm] McMartin: This looks like more or less the same attack you use to root your Wii with Twilight Princess |
| 00:45 | | * celticminstrel wonders if that works on the final version of the Wii firmware... |
| 00:45 | < Yossarian> | Kinda spitting in the face of certain types of players. |
| 00:45 | < Yossarian> | And free loot, too. I remember having to work for my mounts, 12 months or so later after quitting they gradually started giving them away like candy |
| 00:47 | < Yossarian> | That's why I'm keen on PVP, I have a concept for an MMO where the max level isn't very high, you can reach max level in a few evenings - game based on the pen and paper Top Secret. |
| 00:50 | < Yossarian> | Permadeth with types of life insurance and the scaling of the game is to where a rare shot from a lower level player can mess you up and possibly kill you; player apartments with a cyberspace component and hacking - lots of ways to create wealth if you're creative and a focus on what I'm trying to say I guess the better parts of the social dynamics of PVP and groups |
| 00:51 | < Yossarian> | I'm not a sociologist but group behavior is interesting, game theory is interesting |
| 00:55 | < Yossarian> | but the game would be that of gangsters in small cliques, the ability to form crime syndicates, rivalries, alliances, and the game dynamic of level not being that much of a huge factor to reduce sort of purposeful griefing and the thing about the internet is being anonymous causes people to do things they normally wouldn't, in a game where permadeth is a thing, the ability to get shot for being a |
| 00:55 | < Yossarian> | jerk is intriguing |
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| 00:55 | < Yossarian> | or maybe my ideas and concepts for such a project are immature at the moment and I should go work on it |
| 01:01 | <@Alek> | Hey now, I remember Top Secret. I had part of the box set from somewhere, I forget where. Played a bit solo and with cousins. Mostly just designed bases and tweaked the rules some, adding construction pricing (for a game that mentions constructing your own bases, it was kinda lacking in rules for said construction) and some custom equipment. |
| 01:01 | < Yossarian> | Oh shit! I don't feel so old anymore! :) Wasn't Top Secret made or at least published by SSI? |
| 01:01 | <@Alek> | that feels right, sure. |
| 01:02 | < Yossarian> | I had the chance to read the rulebooks and watch a few games as a kid, was gonna play one but people bailed last second due to a fight :( |
| 01:03 | < Yossarian> | "watch a few games" well, you know what I mean, it's a PnP game so |
| 01:03 | <@Alek> | lucky. |
| 01:04 | < Yossarian> | Something was weird with the rulebook though, like, the system cribbed ideas from AD&D but I don't think it was that complex, I cannot recall how the aiming/attack rolls work and the damage die, but if I'm not mistaken the rulebook had illustrations of real firearms and vehicles |
| 01:04 | <@Alek> | I made up rules to move our characters (mine and my cousins') to D&D, I forget if it was AD&D or 3e at the time, but then our loose campaign fell apart shortly after. |
| 01:04 | < Yossarian> | Perhaps it was more like Shadowrun than D&D/AD&D? |
| 01:05 | <@Alek> | it was more like Shadowrun I think, sure. |
| 01:05 | <@Alek> | it was based on Spy and Action movies, Bond being a definite influence, so near-modern. |
| 01:06 | <@Alek> | SO much play out of the included map of a port town. >_> |
| 01:06 | <@Alek> | it was my introduction to the Paradise/pair-of-dice pun, too. :P |
| 01:07 | < Yossarian> | Yeah I like fantasy and I know or used to know my fantasy monsters and such but chairing or GMing a campaign based on less Led Zeppelin/The Hobbit can be easier on the imagination of the GM and players |
| 01:07 | < Yossarian> | haha |
| 01:09 | < Yossarian> | Bond is cool, also I suppose Mission Impossible, not the Tom Cruise movie though, think Top Secret predates the Cruise movie but MI is older |
| 01:10 | < Yossarian> | Wasn't the Mission Impossible NES game literally impossible to beat and finish? Like, it was broken? |
| 01:10 | <~Vornicus> | I seem to remember beating it |
| 01:11 | <~Vornicus> | v. difficult though |
| 01:12 | < Yossarian> | I know there are a few games that are impossible to beat, but yeah Mission Impossible (NES) was needlessly painful. |
| 01:13 | < Yossarian> | Makes Gunstar Heroes or Super GnG seem reasonable. |
| 01:13 | < Yossarian> | the former, ughhhh |
| 01:16 | < Yossarian> | <@Alek> I made up rules to move our characters (mine and my cousins') to D&D, I forget if it was AD&D or 3e at the time, but then our loose campaign fell apart shortly after. |
| 01:18 | < Yossarian> | That's pretty cool of you. I 'member right before D&D 3e, there was an AD&D supplement that gave us the idea to add arqubuses and hand cannons, I think we decided that there were two or three sizes or calibers and critical failure was 1/3 chance explosion |
| 01:19 | < Yossarian> | that was pretty fun, small party, playing small dungeon as test and just for fun |
| 01:25 | <@Alek> | cool |
| 01:44 | < Yossarian> | there was one computer D&D game that was made in about mid 2000s that did the combat of 3e and even some skills fairly accurately and well, it was the most complete game in terms of simulating combat and then maybe sneaking and other things but I can't remember the title |
| 01:45 | < Yossarian> | believe it took place underground mostly |
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| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Yossarian: Icewind Dale? |
| 03:11 | <@Alek> | wasn't that still 2e, not 3e? |
| 03:11 | <@Alek> | also 90s, not 2000s |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | ... that's because I'm thinking not of Icewind Dale, but Icewind Dale II, I think. |
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| 10:48 | <&[R]> | Yay! I got EFI booting working |
| 10:48 | <&[R]> | I hate it. |
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| 13:48 | <@TheWatcher> | [R]: ~~~ |
| 13:48 | <&[R]> | Hmm? |
| 13:50 | <@TheWatcher> | ~~~ = signature (without timestamp) in mediawiki markup |
| 13:51 | <@TheWatcher> | I might spend a bit too much time wrangling that software. |
| 13:51 | <&[R]> | TIL, still confused to as what you're infering with that |
| 13:51 | <@TheWatcher> | I am joining you in your hatred of getting EFI booting (and really EFI in general) |
| 13:51 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 13:52 | <&[R]> | The specific system I was trying it out on did not support legacy booting (at all), and would often just directly boot into the SSD which was explicitly removed from all boot options |
| 13:53 | <&[R]> | (I was trying to boot from USB install media) |
| 13:55 | <&[R]> | It did not like the exfat partition I tried to use |
| 13:55 | <&[R]> | Documentation to get EFI booting working is crap |
| 13:55 | <&[R]> | Had to reference about 50 different places |
| 14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep, half of which will have directly contradicted the others, if my experience is anything to go by |
| 14:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: probably either IWD2 (which I think was the first reasonably complete 3E-based game) or Temple of Elemental Evil (which I believe still holds the crown as "most fastidiously accurate 3E videogame", for whatever that's work) |
| 14:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | *worth |
| 14:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | I believe NWN also used 3E. |
| 14:16 | <~Vornicus> | kotor was a game in the d20 system |
| 14:47 | <@sshine> | I went down to the sales dept. and asked if they had a desk available on friday. one says "there's a spot available next to me!" and another one says "no, simon wants to sit next to me!" and a third says "but when you get tired of sitting over there, you can come and sit here." -- they're so welcoming and inclusive. :) <3 |
| 16:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: yeah, but it's not specifically D&D3E with the same feats and monsters and stuf. |
| 16:39 | <&jerith> | So, I wrote a thing: https://gist.github.com/jerith/1a1f3b668c37212f6b3476f0761b4c7c |
| 16:39 | <&jerith> | It was cathartic. I think it might be useful to do something more with it, but I have no idea what. |
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| 18:36 | <@Alek> | I tell you though, NWN definitely wasn't very accurate to 3E, in skills, equipment, or feats. |
| 18:54 | <&McMartin> | jerith: I'm very uncomfortable with/skeptical of arguments that take the shape "programming language X is more difficult for women to use", even when it's used descriptively |
| 18:57 | <&jeroud> | McMartin: Likewise. Although GenderMag is based on gender research, their personas are carefully gender-neutral. I used gendered pronouns for convenience of differentiation. |
| 19:17 | < Yossarian> | I wish I could remember which PC D&D title it was, the adherence to the combat rules was very impressive to me, it was either 3e or 3.5e; multiplayer, not sure if it was strictly turn-based or optional real-time with "ticks" that were very reasonable. There are so many D&D digital titles. |
| 19:17 | < Yossarian> | whoops, I fell asleep last night |
| 19:18 | < Yossarian> | that was in my input buffer |
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| 20:39 | <&McMartin> | https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/10/how-a-months-old-amd-microcode-bug-destroyed-my-weekend/ |
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| 21:28 | <@gnolam> | "the most artisanal, organic high-quality random number possible" |
| 21:28 | <@gnolam> | Pfft. |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Possibly even bespoke |
| 21:47 | <@gnolam> | I'm still disappointed that Stross has never referred to a Blum Blum Shub-Niggurath PRNG in the Laundry Files. |
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| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | When you tap into the primordial chaos fated to devour even the residual heat from every conceivable universe, you should not be settling for pseudo randomness. |
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| 23:07 | | * McMartin discovers an amazing thing about Apple's dev tools on Mac... though not on iOS |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | This Xcode project has default settings, and then I had to add $(SRCROOT)/../src to my header paths, as you do |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | Inside src, there are, among other things, the files foo/header.h and bar/header.h |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | And baz/code.c has a line: #include "foo/header.h" |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | IT THEN ACTUALLY INCLUDES bar/header.h |
| 23:09 | <@gnolam> | Wat. |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | To make this behavior stop, go to the build settings for your project and turn "Use Header Maps" to NO. |
| 23:10 | <@gnolam> | But... why? |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | "Enable the use of *Header Maps*, which provide the compiler with a mapping from textual header names to their locations, bypassing the normal compiler header search path mechanisms. This allows source code to include headers from various locations in the file system without needing to update the header search path build settings." |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | At least Microsoft's documentation, while useless, at least was clearly true. |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | I can also make this behavior go away by dividing the header search path into "system" and "user" |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | But... no |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | What is wrong with you, Apple |
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| 23:22 | <@celticminstrel> | But why would foo/header.h be mapped to bar/header.h? |
| 23:25 | <@gnolam> | Exactly. |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | Because they are both named "header.h" and thus are the same file, I guess? |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | That is the only mechanism I can think of that even makes crazy moon logic sense |
| 23:33 | <@celticminstrel> | Uh. Okay then! |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | Obviously when I said "foo/header.h" I didn't actually care about the "foo" part and was being cruelly forced to hardcode dependencies about my build environment into the source and not, uh, using directory names to carry information to the C preprocessor |
| 23:37 | <&Derakon> | Yikes. |
| 23:44 | <&McMartin> | Apparently this being a visible option in the settings pane is a new thing; the information I'm finding online suggests that you used to have to hand-hack it into your project file. God knows how they figured out that this was the thing to do. |
| 23:54 | <~Vornicus> | 7 flavors of wtf |
| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | Good thing those two header.h files in my work project actually defined different symbols so it didn't compile at all! |
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| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | Otherwise it would have been silently compiling with the wrong symbols defined for that file |
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| 23:57 | <@celticminstrel> | That feels like a kinda unlikely situation tho...? |
| 23:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Unless foo and bar are different versions of the same library or something... |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | Or different "instantiations" of the same basic thing |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | I think the ship tables in UQM do this |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | And the obvious case in Xcode would be multiple parts of the system that use the default name "ViewController" for the View Controller |
| --- Log closed Wed Oct 30 00:00:03 2019 |