| --- Log opened Tue Sep 17 00:00:32 2019 |
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| 00:15 | <&jerith> | Yeah. I've glanced through his June talk report (although not actually read it properly yet) and am impressed at the amount of work he's completed. |
| 00:16 | <&jerith> | I must admit to not being particularly convinced by arguments in favour of literate programming. |
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| 00:19 | <&jerith> | The only two places I've seen it really work are things like jupyter notebooks (where you're interleaving explanations of a thing with the code exploring that thing) and stuff that's made mostly of little pieces of mostly independent code (like my emacs config, which is an org-mode file full of code blocks that get extracted and compiled separately). |
| 00:21 | <&jerith> | All the bigger systems I've worked on don't really benefit much by mixing code and prose to any significant degree, and those that do manage perfectly well with docstrings and such. |
| 00:23 | <~Vornicus> | I never figured out jupyter |
| 00:24 | <~Vornicus> | but then when I was trying to use it I was also trying to do *terrible* things to it like trying to get it to manipulate a trig-heavy math expression |
| 00:25 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: It's basically Excel with a small number of very big cells. |
| 00:25 | <&jerith> | Alternatively, it's a REPL with persistence. |
| 00:32 | <&jerith> | I'm extremely curious about whether I7 will change my mind about literate programming. |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | I found that the inweb, er, web, was very good reading just on its own. |
| 00:33 | <&jerith> | I doubt it will, but I've been wrong about this sort of thing before. |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure if they're on the third site. |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | The presentation it gave of both inweb itself and of the cBlorb command line tool, though, have definitely influenced the way I present assembly language programs in Bumbershoot walkthroughs. |
| 00:35 | <&jerith> | Not on the site, but http://www.ifarchive.org/indexes/if-archive/infocom/compilers/inform7/source/ seems to have a copy. |
| 00:36 | <&jerith> | Everything except the Windows UI source datestamped nearly a decade ago. |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | That is about right |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | But if that's the inweb source, or if it's the tangles instead of the webs, it's not really the thing that one wants to read. |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | Aha |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | Checking, there is a "Woven" subdirectory full of pdfs |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | So Woven/Complete.pdf is a worthwhile read for inweb itself and also for cBlorb after the fact. |
| 00:41 | <&jerith> | Is there any explanation of the I7 build numbers anywhere? |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | They follow Apple's old standard. |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | The new ones with elemental code names and recognizable release numbers are brand new to me |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | Earlier, you basically started at 1A00 and then incremented it every commit |
| 00:43 | <&McMartin> | The next value after 1A99 is 1B00, and the next value after 1Z99 is 2A00, and the next value after 9Z99 is 10A00. |
| 00:44 | <&McMartin> | If you poke around macOS you can still find occasional echoes of this. |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | The inweb source is also, for the record, why Graham Nelson is one of the three people I acknowledge as writing readable Perl. |
| 00:47 | <&jerith> | Who's the third? |
| 00:48 | <&jerith> | (I only know TW, although I've occasionally seen random bits of perl on the internet that is strangely readable.) |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Another guy in the IF community, who mostly works in Java and Kotlin |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | But despises Python and uses Perl where normal people would use Python. |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | (He is basically completely unreasonable about semantics-preserving whitespace for reasons that actually are arguments *in favor of* meaningful whitespace.) |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | Er, semantics-important whitespace |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | e.g., he was clearly traumatized in the past by coworkers who refused to ever indent their code, and blames the languages for making those people break everything as opposed to championing those languages as a way to get those guys fired for failure to write working code |
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| 18:21 | <&jerith> | Hrm. While Complete.pdf has not yet changed my mind, it has convinced me that I need to actually use a literate programming system for something more serious than my emacs config. |
| 18:22 | <&jerith> | The obvious candidate right now would be `icebo` (my Scheme) but I don't think Rust would play well with inweb of whatever. |
| 18:22 | <&jerith> | (I also want emacs support for inweb now. But not enough that I'm willing to learn how to build it.) |
| 18:24 | <&jerith> | I also kind of want inweb to weave to epub or whatever. (Maybe it already does.) |
| 18:57 | <&McMartin> | IIRC the underlying typesetter is pdftex; surely there is something that will turn TeX to epub instead. |
| 19:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | TeX to epub is generally done by TeX -> HTML -> epub; the TeX approach to typesetting is a poor match for the Epub one. |
| 19:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | jerith: there are language-agnostic LP systems like noweb; it might be possible to convince one of them to play nice with Rust. |
| 19:04 | <&McMartin> | Kinda. |
| 19:04 | <&McMartin> | The main reason inweb exists is that the previous systems either don't scale or became so 'agnostic' that they provide questionable value |
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| 19:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 19:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aha, and Graham's talk on open-sourcing inform mentions, in passing, that inweb can emit epub. |
| 19:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | I note with some frustration that the repository links given in the talk no longer work, though. |
| 19:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | inweb seems to have vanished from the net. |
| 19:22 | | * ToxicFrog | This is the main change I’ve made. The Inform compiler has an entirely new back end, which generates an intermediate-level code called “inter”, and only then code-generates that into I6. (I6 is the Inform 6 language, which is much lower-level.) But Inter doesn’t have to be converted to I6: all kinds of other possibilities are now open. |
| 19:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
| 19:22 | <~Vornicus> | I cannot tell the tone of that scream |
| 19:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Terrified delight. |
| 19:23 | <~Vornicus> | ah, precisely what I hoped then |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: Those are not "no longer work", they will eventually work at release. |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | The repos are still private. |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | The documents jerith and I were consulting were in the if-archive. |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | From the versions from 10 years ago. |
| 19:26 | <&McMartin> | (I imagine that the two tools released as examples, inweb and cblorb, have not changed significantly in the intervening decade) |
| 19:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...to handle extensions with embedded I6 code, Inter translates the I6 snippets into Inter, and then recompiles them back into I6 |
| 19:32 | <&jerith> | The epub output must be new in the intervening decade. |
| 19:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aha, he doesn't mention until near the end that the Github repos aren't public yet. |
| 19:35 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah, the worst-case I6 scenario is pretty great |
| 19:35 | <&McMartin> | But technically is not really out of band if you compare it to, say, JS transpilers |
| 19:35 | <&McMartin> | Like, that's correct, but getting the I6 snippets into the IR was the goal in the first place |
| 19:36 | <&McMartin> | That the IR then is used to create I6 of its own is merely an implementation detail of a totally different module~ |
| 19:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that's beautifully gross. |
| 20:02 | | * Derakon stares at this code. |
| 20:02 | <&Derakon> | It looks simple, so I can't tell why the compiler isn't happy. https://pastebin.com/HFwUNBeR |
| 20:02 | <&Derakon> | "The name 'var' does not exist in the current context" when I try to declare `params`. |
| 20:03 | <&Derakon> | (This is C#) |
| 20:07 | <&jerith> | Is params maye a keyword? |
| 20:08 | <&jerith> | *maybe |
| 20:08 | <&jerith> | Yeah, https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/language-reference/keywords/params indicates that it is. |
| 20:09 | <&Derakon> | Oh, of course. |
| 20:09 | <&Derakon> | Thanks. |
| 20:18 | <&jerith> | Glad I could help. |
| 20:18 | <&jerith> | Didn't your editor highlight it, though? |
| 20:19 | <&Derakon> | It did, yes. |
| 20:19 | <&Derakon> | I am evidently not entirely on the ball today. |
| 20:19 | | * jerith offers Derakon a cube, which is much easier to stay on.~ |
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| --- Log closed Wed Sep 18 00:00:34 2019 |