| --- Log opened Sun Aug 25 00:00:00 2019 |
| 01:36 | <&Reiver> | What is a .gitignore ? |
| 01:38 | <&McMartin> | It is an attempt at being exactly what it says on the tin: a file listing files for Git to ignore. |
| 01:38 | <&McMartin> | Usually for temporary, derived, or site-specific files that are not intended to be uploaded and preserved. |
| 01:39 | < Yossarian> | it's a file to ignore that git exists because it PALES in comparison to the ALMIGHT CVS |
| 01:40 | <&[R]> | wat |
| 01:40 | < Yossarian> | or RCS! |
| 01:40 | < Yossarian> | </facetiousness> |
| 01:40 | < Yossarian> | </sarcasm> |
| 01:45 | <&Reiver> | okay, I don't understand that, but I feel that suggests I can leave that as 'none' for the moment anyway |
| 01:46 | <&[R]> | You don't even need to make one |
| 01:48 | <&[R]> | ; for x * { access $x^/.gitignore && echo Has ignore || echo No ignore } | sort | uniq -c |
| 01:48 | <&[R]> | 17 Has ignore |
| 01:48 | <&[R]> | 17 No ignore |
| 01:52 | < Yossarian> | I don't understand that. Both are true? or the number of elements is 34 (17 * 2)? |
| 01:52 | | * McMartin grumbles at Ubuntu, whose linker is being recalcitrant |
| 01:52 | < Yossarian> | erm |
| 01:53 | <&[R]> | There's 34 |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | Of his 34 git checkouts, exactly half specify ignore lists. |
| 01:53 | <&[R]> | ^ |
| 01:53 | < Yossarian> | ah, thought that conditional fell through the floor or somethin' |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | It is unusually neat~ |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | Anyway |
| 01:54 | <&[R]> | It does, just not in the way you think it does |
| 01:54 | < Yossarian> | but then I did consider the fact that there might be two sets of 17 in the total number of checked elements |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | If Github is suggesting a default .gitignore for C# projects, just accept their defaults, it'll be fine |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: The user story, as it were, goes like this |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | *does a bunch of work and testing* |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | *goes to check in his changes* |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | < Git> Hey, here's a list of the 5,723 files you changed |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | < Me> WTF is this, I changed three files, what is all this rubbish |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | < Git> These files changed, man, don't look at me |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | < Me> Please STFU about those files |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | < Git> OK, these three files have changed |
| 02:01 | <&Reiver> | alrighty |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | You can trust github here, and if you regret your choices later this can be retroactively addressed with only minor amounts of pain and annoyance~ |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | And we will probably end up tapping Mahal for her PowerShell knowledge, if you're working on a Windows system |
| 02:02 | <&Reiver> | alrighty, cheers |
| 02:02 | <&Reiver> | I almost certainly will be, yes |
| 02:04 | < Yossarian> | PowerShell knowledge? Sounds useful for penetration testing. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | Much as bash is |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | The question is "how much of bash's ancillary utilities does WinGit ship with" and ISTR this varies a great deal, so. |
| 02:12 | < Pink> | Reiver, specifically if you are using unity, you will want a git ignore for unity projects |
| 02:13 | < Pink> | BEcause unity auto-generates a lot of stuff that you do not need or want uploaded, and that people downloading your project won't want because they will need to be recreated on their computer anyway. |
| 02:13 | < Pink> | https://github.com/github/gitignore/blob/master/Unity.gitignore for example |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Oh, that's a very sophisticated one, very nice |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | "Ignore this directory except for files with this extention contained at any directory depth within it" is a nice trick. I should keep that one in my notebook. |
| 02:17 | < Pink> | Yeah, it seems to work very smoothly. |
| 02:18 | < Yossarian> | Eh, I haven't played with it but my understanding is via PowerShell "cmdlets" you can do a plethora of things |
| 02:18 | <&[R]> | cmdlet's are cmd.exe's version of batch files |
| 02:19 | <&[R]> | Batch files are run by console.com (or something) and have a different syntax for things than cmd.exe does |
| 02:19 | < Pink> | But yeah, for many small unity projects(especially ones that are mostly code as opposed to lots of art assets) your actual assets can be dwarfed by Unity temp, cache, etc. |
| 02:19 | < Pink> | And all the libraries and soforth. |
| 02:19 | < Yossarian> | Makes sense. |
| 02:22 | < Pink> | And it is always fun when you need a 2kb script someone made and git offers you a 600 meg project file :D |
| 02:24 | <&Reiver> | huh, thank you! |
| 02:25 | <&Reiver> | how do I add it to my project? |
| 02:25 | <&[R]> | A .gitignore file? |
| 02:25 | <&[R]> | git add .gitignore |
| 02:25 | <&[R]> | Then commit |
| 02:27 | <&Reiver> | That simple sentence suggests I should go read a couple tutorials. |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | Git is... not beginner friendly, in a variety of ways |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | I think Github will have some relatively sane ones for your needs |
| 02:28 | <&[R]> | Merge conflicts took me forever to figgure out |
| 02:28 | <&[R]> | github's tutorials are pretty good primers |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | For many years the official tutorials were in no way sane because they were designed to showcase how git dealt with psychotic organizationsal structures. |
| 02:28 | <&Reiver> | Step 1: Where am I typing 'git add .gitignore'~ |
| 02:28 | <&[R]> | Wish I had them when I started |
| 02:28 | <&[R]> | In the terminal |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: Into a tiny UNIX port that Windows Git installs for you, most likely |
| 02:29 | <&[R]> | Or do it via the UI since you're not running an OS |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> | Helpful |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> | For calibration, please remember that this is Reiver attempting to move into hobby programming from professional non-software-development |
| 02:30 | <&[R]> | Sorry just frustrated with my own stuff |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | Assuming that what he really wants is to become an devops sysadmin is not useful |
| 02:30 | <&[R]> | So I'm kind of pissy, I appologize for being rude |
| 02:30 | <&[R]> | What UI is Reiver using for git anyways? |
| 02:31 | <&Reiver> | Well, McMartin makes a useful point for baseline establishment! |
| 02:31 | <&[R]> | git add is the most basic operation, you're going to be doing it a ton |
| 02:31 | <&[R]> | (Once for every file you add) |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | I'm doing a quick scan now for sane tutorials |
| 02:32 | <&Reiver> | I'm passable as a DBA in Oracle and a neophyte SQL Server DBA, with a whole swath of data cleansing/visualisation skillsets, and can nonironically be butting up to the point of 'guru' when it comes to SQL syntax and functionality. (I don't know quite enough weird edge cases, but anything requiring an algorathm is witihn my balliwick) |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | github tutorials I'm finding are for managing one's github account and repos through the web interface, which is not what I want |
| 02:32 | <&Reiver> | I have not *programmed* in fifteen years, and have not done any heavier lifting than occasional server or batch file config in same. |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | This looks like a good start for getting git actually installed in a way I approve of on Windows. https://www.pluralsight.com/guides/using-git-and-github-on-windows |
| 02:33 | <&Reiver> | I also have not installed any software on my computer except for Unity and Visual Studio yet, so if I need to install a plugin to type 'git commit' into... well, I didn't even know I needed to do that yet. |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | I have just linked those steps. |
| 02:34 | <&[R]> | Ahh |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | git is... very tightly linked, at the command level, to the Unix terminal and several very specific quirks of it. |
| 02:34 | < Yossarian> | +5 pts for usage of 'neophyte' |
| 02:34 | <&[R]> | Yeah, you need to install something to run git |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | Because of certain conflicts in those commands with default windows commands, the isolation layer that the tutorial I linked provides is IMO helpful. |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | I think but am not positive that this includes a gui interface as well, but the "Git Bash Here" context menu has generally done the things I need. |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | People who spend a lot of time on the Internet ragging on Windows also generally do not have a good sense of the best way to get unix utilities *running* on Windows, but the underlying technology for doing so (MSYS2, and the 2 is important) are replicated by the WinGit installer in a way that (unless you mess with stuff) won't conflict with other things. |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | (And, uh, for the buzzword-friendly; MSYS and MinGW to the extent that they weren't folded into MSYS2 are defunct and never worked well, Cygwin was even worse and is only useful when you need bug-for-bug simulation with Unix systems, and nowadays the correct way to handle that is not cygwin but to build a Linux VM and run that. WSL is solving a very specific problem that exactly one developer community has |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | right now and gets more press than it's ready to withstand.) |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | If you've already created a repository on GIthub, you won't need to do the "git remote add" dance, because you'll have something you can create with "git clone" |
| 02:38 | <&[R]> | You don't need to do git init either |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | That said |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | It's worth doing that just to see how to do it and because it will give you a "playground" to mess around in with versioning text files or something before you start dealing with Something Big. |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | Oooh |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | And for the being fancy |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | I have not played with https://desktop.github.com/ |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | That said, lol at "native" and "electron" in the same paragraph |
| 02:45 | <&Reiver> | I think I may attempt to read this conversation after the tutorials again. |
| 02:45 | <&Reiver> | In the meantime, Notepad++ shall be my default editor because it is Better Than Vim and I know it so it's a start |
| 02:45 | <@Alek> | ^5 |
| 02:46 | < Yossarian> | disagree |
| 02:46 | <&[R]> | gvim was absolutely frustrating to use |
| 02:46 | <&[R]> | I think notepad++ is probably the better option |
| 02:47 | <&[R]> | Though I used programmer's notepad instead |
| 02:47 | < Yossarian> | oh, well, gvim... |
| 02:47 | <&[R]> | gvim's the vim he'll get on Windows |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | Though at least on WIndows it doesn't somehow use more CPU than Emacs. |
| 02:48 | | * McMartin hasn't figured that one out yet. |
| 02:48 | <&[R]> | Heh |
| 02:48 | <&[R]> | Maybe it was written by the same people who made Flash? |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Should be very similar sourcecode bases |
| 02:48 | <&[R]> | (Flash on Linux liked to 100% a CPU core while idle) |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | If I had to make a serious guess: the system that's doing that is a GNOME/Wayland system and GTK/Wayland might have some wackiness. |
| 02:49 | < Yossarian> | One is an operating system, though, and the other is a thing on teh webz |
| 02:49 | <&McMartin> | Especially if it's not GTK3 |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | But yeah. NP++ is Fine (tm). It doesn't grow with you, but that's not a problem yet. |
| 02:53 | <&Reiver> | oh, I know it's insufficient |
| 02:53 | <&Reiver> | But it is my Standard Outrider Editor to run alongside SQL Server Management Studio, so it's a decent start |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | And, I mean |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | I use it for assembly language and HTML |
| 02:54 | | * Reiver nods |
| 02:55 | <&[R]> | pnotepad had edit over FTP which was pretty baller |
| 02:56 | <&[R]> | (This was before anyone provided SSH for shared hosting) |
| 02:57 | <&Reiver> | ... does anyone know anything about Visual Studio Code? |
| 02:58 | <&[R]> | It's apparently not ass |
| 02:58 | <&Reiver> | It is certainly very... recognisable |
| 02:58 | <&[R]> | Some people in some linux channels actually use it |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | The TL;DR is that it's MSVS but just the text editor part. |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | And then you stick in plugins for various other languages |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | And yeah |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | It's like top 3 even on Mac and Linux |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | I'd say "since you're working in C# here, I don't think it gives you anything that MSVS itself won't get you" |
| 02:59 | <&Reiver> | Yeah, I get that feeling |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | Unless there's something Unity-specific in which case I"ll defer to those with experience. |
| 02:59 | <&Reiver> | Could be handy to have consistency |
| 02:59 | <&Reiver> | OTOH could be handier to have an alternate set of cutlery |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | If you're on Windows and are writing JavaScript or Rust or something it has value there, I understand |
| 02:59 | <&Reiver> | hm |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | I feel a lot like this is "get *something* off the ground, then worry about how your kitchen is decorated" |
| 03:00 | <&Reiver> | This is for the "default editor used with Git" option |
| 03:00 | <&Reiver> | You're right |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | Oh hm |
| 03:00 | <&Reiver> | But I am also... lightly paranoid about not fucking things up on the first attempt |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | I actually ended up using a copy of vim that shipped with git >_> |
| 03:00 | <&Reiver> | It's probably a lack of confidence thing, but I am going to be making enough mistakes as it is without the more fundamental ones >_> |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | You will rarely be using that editor to write more than three lines |
| 03:00 | <&Reiver> | ah, cool |
| 03:00 | <&McMartin> | The git editor is for typing in your changelogs. |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | Not developing the code. |
| 03:01 | <&Reiver> | Notepad++ it is |
| 03:01 | <&Reiver> | thank you |
| 03:01 | <&Reiver> | *That* is the kind of context that is what I am seeking, even when I don't know I should be asking for it :) |
| 03:01 | <&McMartin> | I didn't realize that was the question until that point~ |
| 03:01 | <&[R]> | Same |
| 03:02 | <&Reiver> | I only realised at that point what it was asking /me/~ |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | Oh, nice |
| 03:02 | <&McMartin> | I *think* this will also install a program called "Git Gui" |
| 03:02 | <&[R]> | Most of my commits are one line, so I use -m |
| 03:03 | <&McMartin> | That should make the "clone existing repository" part relatively painless |
| 03:04 | <&Reiver> | "Adjusting your PATH enviroment": a) Use git from git bash only, b) git from the command line and also from 3rd-party software, c) use git and unix tools from the command prompt, redtext "Warning: This will override Windows tools like 'find' and 'sort', only use if you understand implications" |
| 03:04 | <&Reiver> | ... I'm, uh, going to discount c) then |
| 03:05 | <&[R]> | B is probably the better option |
| 03:05 | <&[R]> | Since it's A+ |
| 03:05 | <&[R]> | And it's harmless if you don't use the 3rd party stuff |
| 03:06 | <&Reiver> | okay, cheers |
| 03:06 | <&Reiver> | ... OpenSSL library or Native Windows Secure Channel library? |
| 03:06 | <&[R]> | *shrug* |
| 03:06 | <&Reiver> | Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the importance of getting this stuff right, but holy hell I haven't felt so baffled by the buttons in front of me in decades |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | This is why open source is terrible, tbh |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | I'd go with openssl, just because Anything It Ships With Is Less Likely To Break |
| 03:07 | <&[R]> | OpenSSL is probably the more reasonable option |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | The important choice here is "don't let it alter your PATH" |
| 03:07 | <&Reiver> | I am not used to a software install asking me questions I don't only not know the answer to, but don't even understand the framework for the question >_> |
| 03:07 | <&Reiver> | aha |
| 03:07 | <&[R]> | WSC is probably an option for if you wanted to use Windows' key store |
| 03:08 | <&[R]> | Which you'd likely want to in a more enterpise environment |
| 03:08 | <&Reiver> | ah, I see |
| 03:08 | <&Reiver> | cheers |
| 03:08 | <&[R]> | Are any of the options selected by default? |
| 03:08 | | * Reiver elects to go with 'yeah, convert to windows on export and convert back to unix on import', because why the fuck not |
| 03:08 | <&[R]> | Because chosing the defaults should be fine |
| 03:08 | <&Reiver> | Usually the top one |
| 03:09 | <&[R]> | -*- Reiver elects to go with 'yeah, convert to windows on export and convert back to unix on import', because why the fuck not <-- don't |
| 03:09 | <&Reiver> | But there isn't anything saying "Default" to guide you along |
| 03:09 | <&Reiver> | ... okay |
| 03:09 | <&[R]> | That can fuck some things up |
| 03:09 | | * Reiver backs up on that one |
| 03:09 | <&Reiver> | Commit and check out as-is, then? |
| 03:09 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 03:09 | <&Reiver> | jfc, the one time I thought the question was simple enough to not bug you guys with~ |
| 03:09 | <&[R]> | You can make your editor export unix if it matters anyways |
| 03:09 | <&[R]> | (Hint: they're talking about newlines) |
| 03:10 | <&Reiver> | (I knew that part, at least) |
| 03:10 | <@celticminstrel> | (It's command.com, not console.com.) |
| 03:10 | <@celticminstrel> | [Aug 24@9:59:09pm] McMartin: I'd say "since you're working in C# here, I don't think it gives you anything that MSVS itself won't get you" |
| 03:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Well it does divest you of the need to sign into an online account... |
| 03:11 | <&Reiver> | I'm OK with that bit honestly |
| 03:11 | <@celticminstrel> | BTW, Git GUI is pretty decent, enough that I never bothered to install any other GUI on my Windows machine. |
| 03:11 | <&Reiver> | MSVS is something I have a very passing familiarity with, so I'll run with it and hopefully the old engine will have the rust flake off in time |
| 03:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Tho it's technically two separate programs which is a bit weird. |
| 03:11 | <&Reiver> | celticminstrel: Should I be installing that instead of gitforwindows, then? |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Git GUI ships with git. |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: You are installing Git Gui |
| 03:12 | <&[R]> | As mentioned it ships with what you got |
| 03:12 | <&Reiver> | oh |
| 03:12 | <&Reiver> | Okay, cool |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | What was the other one again? |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | (And also the core tools) |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | Git Bash |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | No not that |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | Which Git Gui wraps |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | Oh, the thing I linked |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | The history browser |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | That was Github's electron thingy |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | No not that. |
| 03:12 | <&Reiver> | MinTTY vs cmd.exe? |
| 03:13 | <&[R]> | MinTTY, cmd.exe is pretty ass |
| 03:13 | <@celticminstrel> | There's a git command that I can type in that opens up a GUI of the repo's history. |
| 03:13 | <@celticminstrel> | I think you can also open it from a menu in Git GUI. |
| 03:14 | <@celticminstrel> | I use cmd.exe but I'm not gonna recommend it exactly. Powershell works too I think FTR. |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 03:14 | <&[R]> | MinTTY lets you resize in *two* axises |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | In particular, I recommend against git integration with cmd.exe in general, because there's too many ways it can interfere with normal windows commands' |
| 03:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Uh? |
| 03:15 | <&[R]> | This should not actually be a deciding possitive |
| 03:15 | <&[R]> | But it is |
| 03:15 | <&Reiver> | Enable: File system caching? Git Credential Manager? Symbolic links? |
| 03:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Doesn't cmd.exe allow that too? |
| 03:15 | <&Reiver> | as of win10, yes |
| 03:15 | <&Reiver> | Cutting edge tech, that one |
| 03:15 | <&[R]> | Fuck if I know. I quit Windows in XP |
| 03:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah as of win10 |
| 03:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Tho actually I'm pretty sure you can do it in win7 too |
| 03:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Just, not with the mouse. Need to go into the menu and edit settings or something. |
| 03:16 | | * McMartin is afk for a bit; his silence is neither approval nor condemnation |
| 03:16 | <&[R]> | MinTTY is Cygwin's terminal, I liked it a ton more than cmd.exe |
| 03:17 | <&[R]> | <celticminstrel> Just, not with the mouse. Need to go into the menu and edit settings or something. <-- that worked in XP too. It was ass. |
| 03:18 | | * Reiver figures he'll go with the defaults then: File system caching, Git Credential Manager, but no symbolic links. Is a little iffy on the credential manager bit, though. |
| 03:19 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh |
| 03:19 | <&[R]> | Oh, MinTTY is WSL's terminal too |
| 03:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Win10's ability to select text in the terminal without first going into the menu is actually quite annoying. |
| 03:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Because the program is suspended while any text is selected. |
| 03:21 | <@celticminstrel> | So if you click and accidentally select one character and then wonder why the program isn't responding... that's why. |
| 03:22 | < Pink> | Reiver, for that file you place it in your project directory. It is like a robots file on a website. |
| 03:23 | <&[R]> | Sounds very MS'y |
| 03:23 | <&[R]> | RE: selection |
| 03:26 | <&Reiver> | Pink: Aha, okay, thanks |
| 03:26 | <&Reiver> | I will be able to do that once I finish with this wisard :) |
| 03:26 | | * Reiver still doesn't understand what Git Credentials will do to him, but hopes it is not inconvinient. |
| 03:29 | < Pink> | >Win10's 'ability' to select text |
| 03:29 | < Pink> | I mean, Ray Charles could pick out a shirt. |
| 03:31 | | * Pink vaguely dreads when he'll have to actually upgrade windows |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Don't do it! :o |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm half-convinced that Windows 10 is actually malware. |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | At the very least, Windows Update (in Win10) is. |
| 03:38 | <&[R]> | W10 was completely unusable on my work laptop |
| 03:39 | <&[R]> | My favorite bit was when the font engine crashed |
| 03:39 | <&Reiver> | I now have Git! |
| 03:39 | <&[R]> | Meaning no fonts could be rendered |
| 03:39 | <&Reiver> | Now to use my GitHub account to sign into VS |
| 03:40 | < Pink> | Well, I don't PLAN to until there's no other option. |
| 03:40 | <&[R]> | Also spending an hour opening all the images I was going to work on, so I could just bulk convert them, going to the bathroom and returning to a "Windows is updating your machine" |
| 03:41 | <&[R]> | Then updates taking multiple hours |
| 03:41 | < Pink> | I'm still on win7, and there was kicking and screaming involved to get me there |
| 03:41 | <&Reiver> | win7 is ok |
| 03:41 | <&Reiver> | win10 is eventually inevitable |
| 03:42 | <&Reiver> | but I don't disagree with reluctance. |
| 03:42 | <&[R]> | Run a Linux VM, learn it, then run a Linux host with Windows VM, then slowly deprpecate the Windows shit |
| 03:42 | < Pink> | Not everyone can stop using windows applications. |
| 03:42 | <&[R]> | If only there were like seven ways to solve that on Linux |
| 03:43 | < Pink> | Yes, I know. Because I've certainly never had someone ever suggest moving to Linux before. |
| 03:45 | < Pink> | And no, my computer can barely run some of the software I use as it is, running them in unsupported emulation won't help. |
| 03:46 | <&[R]> | Then enjoy W10 |
| 03:46 | <&[R]> | And MS shoving shit down your throat |
| 03:47 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-rslo4b.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
| 03:47 | | mode/#code [+o mac] by ChanServ |
| 03:47 | < Mahal> | I've said this before and I'll say it again, [R] |
| 03:48 | < Mahal> | In my experience the people complaining that windows 10 is aWFuL and UNMANAGEABLE either lack the knowledge to admin it correctly or refused to buy the version that grants those rights |
| 03:49 | < Mahal> | Of course, Windows isn't the right tool for all jobs, and I freely agree with that name |
| 03:49 | <&[R]> | Sure, but I'm not paying 240$ for an entirely new liscence of W10 just to fix updates being retarded |
| 03:50 | <&[R]> | When I was forced to get Home with the laptop to begin with |
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| 03:51 | < Pink> | I doubt it is unmanageable. If I did, I'd not be dreading having to upgrade, I'd be refusing to. =P I do think that it is awful, especially since I don't want to be a professional administrator to have my computer basically obey me. And I'm sure that when I do move to it I will be forced to dig deep to get basic functionality in place and to make it less hideous. |
| 03:52 | < Mahal> | You can buy Pro upgrades. Or you could have bought a laptop with Pro, as I did. |
| 03:52 | <&[R]> | Plus there's things that you can't change anyways |
| 03:52 | <&[R]> | Work provided the laptop, didn't have much choice there |
| 03:52 | <&[R]> | (Small company) |
| 03:52 | < Mahal> | If your employer is supplying a machine wihh Windows Home they are almost certainly breaching license agreementa |
| 03:53 | <&[R]> | That's MS' own fault then, stop fucking forcing the shit on all systems |
| 03:53 | <@Alek> | I'll note that 8.1 wasn't as bad as people were saying either, IMHO better than 7 and almost as good as 10. |
| 03:53 | < Mahal> | And it should be the employer paying for pro not the individual |
| 03:53 | <@Alek> | the lack of the Start button was easily remedied for most people. |
| 03:53 | < Pink> | I think that 'better' is not a single metric, Alek. |
| 03:54 | < Mahal> | Yeah, I found 8.1 not as bad as 8 but tbh most of 8 was a trashfire |
| 03:54 | < Mahal> | 10 is fine. |
| 03:54 | < Pink> | And that trying to make one size fit all is in fact much of the problem. |
| 03:54 | < Mahal> | And I'm 1000% in favor of enforcing Windows updates from a general Internet security standpoint. |
| 03:55 | <&[R]> | I'd like the forced updates better if the way to specify a time wasn't crap |
| 03:55 | < Mahal> | It's not. If you buy Pro. :P |
| 03:55 | <&[R]> | Also W10 straight up could not hibernate |
| 03:55 | <&[R]> | Which was trivial in Linux |
| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | Um |
| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | When you say "hibernate" do you mean "suspend" or |
| 03:56 | < Mahal> | Err. W10 hibernates just fine. |
| 03:56 | <&[R]> | I mean suspend-to-disk |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | Because Win10 suspends-to-disk as part of its normal powerdown sequence |
| 03:56 | <&[R]> | No option to, google did not help |
| 03:56 | <&[R]> | And it was very much not the default since the computer would be very dead after 5 hours in a bag |
| 03:57 | <@Alek> | 10 Home "recently" got updates to the way you can specify update times, so it's better than it used to be, anyway. |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | That's not powering down |
| 03:57 | <&[R]> | Obviously |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | By default, Win10's "Shut down" option is a reboot that hibernates after doing the boring parts of startup. |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | Suspend is... not that. |
| 03:58 | <&[R]> | That language is *very* unclear then |
| 03:58 | <@Alek> | it's also not W10's fault. |
| 03:58 | <&[R]> | Yeah, it's MS' |
| 03:58 | <@Alek> | the language has been like that for the better part of 2 decades at least. |
| 03:58 | <&Reiver> | 10 home lets you pick when to update, but it does not let you delay it indefinitely. |
| 03:58 | <&Reiver> | One may begrudge this |
| 03:59 | <&Reiver> | But I admit when I was on win7 I would delay for months a a time so that is not a mark in favor of allowing such flexibility~ |
| 03:59 | <&[R]> | Hell, a button that's "Yeah, go ahead, update now" would've been a massive improvement |
| 04:00 | <&[R]> | Since sometimes I'd delay, because I was WORKING, and then I'd be done |
| 04:00 | <&[R]> | (I know there is one, but 1) it was shown that said button opted you into beta programs, 2) it's hidden in a ton of menus) |
| 04:02 | < Mahal> | I'm sorry but what the fuck, that's just not how it works, [R] |
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| 04:02 | <&[R]> | Uhh yeah? |
| 04:02 | <&Reiver> | ... what? |
| 04:02 | <&Reiver> | You just hit 'restart and install updates', dude |
| 04:02 | < Mahal> | Start - restart and update now. It's not exactly hidden. |
| 04:03 | <@Alek> | what they said, R |
| 04:03 | <&[R]> | https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/windows10-check-for-updates/ |
| 04:03 | <@Alek> | not just in Start-Power, but also in the Windows Update screen you get a button that says Restart Now. |
| 04:03 | <&[R]> | I don't recall that being a thing (I remember that from XP, but I did not see that in W10) |
| 04:04 | < Mahal> | Yeah, if you can go ahead and find me a legitimate source then I might believe you |
| 04:04 | < Mahal> | Digital trends is not that |
| 04:04 | < Mahal> | It's explicitly not how it works anyway |
| 04:04 | <&[R]> | https://www.pcworld.com/article/3326833/careful-windows-10s-check-for-updates-button-may-download-beta-code.html |
| 04:04 | <&[R]> | https://tech.slashdot.org/story/18/12/14/2048226/regular-windows-10-users-who-manually-look-for-updates-may-end-up-downloading-beta-code-microsoft-says |
| 04:04 | < Mahal> | You sign up to your update branch thru management of your win10 login in Microsoft website |
| 04:04 | <@Alek> | so uh. hibernate, suspend, I have neither, I have Sleep. >_> |
| 04:05 | < Mahal> | If you don't explicitly sign up you stay on the regular update branch |
| 04:05 | <&Reiver> | methinks R may not have touched a windows computer in a bit too long~ |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | It's been awhile since I've had to give a shit about ACPI levels, but I believe Sleep and Suspend are the same thing. |
| 04:05 | < Mahal> | If you check your power settings you may have disabled them |
| 04:05 | <&[R]> | https://www.techspot.com/news/77846-microsoft-admits-non-insiders-beta-testing-windows-updates.html |
| 04:05 | <@Alek> | there's an option to opt in to beta updates in advanced update settings, but I never touch those. |
| 04:06 | <&[R]> | <Reiver> methinks R may not have touched a windows computer in a bit too long~ <-- not at all in a year |
| 04:06 | < Mahal> | I should note again, sometimes windows is not the right tool for the job. That's fine. |
| 04:06 | <&[R]> | Right |
| 04:07 | <&[R]> | Which is why I don't use it |
| 04:07 | < Mahal> | I don't even want to pretend to say windows is right for everything cos it's not |
| 04:07 | <&McMartin> | You are giving the impreession that you don't use it because you have been convinced by FUD and open conspiracy theories. |
| 04:07 | <&McMartin> | It's... kind of a bad look |
| 04:07 | < Mahal> | That. |
| 04:08 | <&[R]> | So, the *one* argument I've made is the Windows Insider involuntary bullshit thing |
| 04:08 | <&[R]> | Everything else is my own experience |
| 04:08 | <&Reiver> | No offense, but half of it is wrong, though |
| 04:08 | <&Reiver> | So either your memory is bad or you misunderstood what you looked at |
| 04:08 | < Mahal> | You are presenting your personal experience as a statement of how windows works, when it is demonstrably not the case for several of those statements. |
| 04:08 | <&McMartin> | Which is leading you to say that things cannot be done that can be trivially done because you didn't find out how to do it. |
| 04:09 | <&Reiver> | Which, to be fair, is largely how I feel looking at Linux |
| 04:09 | < Mahal> | Movie time here. Chat later! |
| 04:09 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: Anyway. You now have Git installed |
| 04:10 | <&McMartin> | You should be able to open "Git Gui", select "clone an existing repository", and feed it your github repo and get the files already there onto your system. |
| 04:10 | <&[R]> | Okay, so let's go back. MS renamed "Hibernate" to "Power Off", without making it clear that was happening. Therefore, reasearching how to make Windows hibernate, was leading me to think my system couldn't, because it was very demonstratably going to sleep only. |
| 04:10 | <&[R]> | *XP* had an option "close the lid -> hibernate" |
| 04:10 | <&Reiver> | McMartin: Oh, nice! |
| 04:10 | <&[R]> | W10 did *not* have that option |
| 04:10 | <@celticminstrel> | At least on Win7, "Hibernate" basically writes everything to disk and fully shuts down, so when you start up your programs are still running, while "Sleep" os more of a soft power down, like MacOS. |
| 04:10 | <&McMartin> | [R]: The thing you want is not actually what the poweroff is |
| 04:10 | <&[R]> | Someone said something otherwise |
| 04:10 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Right. This is a standard |
| 04:11 | <&[R]> | <McMartin> Because Win10 suspends-to-disk as part of its normal powerdown sequence |
| 04:11 | <@celticminstrel> | ^is more |
| 04:11 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 04:11 | <&McMartin> | That's not the same thing |
| 04:11 | <&[R]> | Right. |
| 04:11 | <&Reiver> | McMartin: so do I throw an URL into my 'source location' or |
| 04:11 | | * Alek adds Hibernate and removes Sleep, since he doesn't really need it. |
| 04:11 | <&[R]> | I wanted suspend-to-disk. AKA Hibernate. |
| 04:11 | <&Reiver> | And should I have care with determining a target directory? |
| 04:11 | <@Alek> | not that I'll use Hibernate all that much either, but eh. |
| 04:11 | <&[R]> | W10 was simply not doing that, and was not providing a clear way to do that. |
| 04:11 | <&McMartin> | Since that's not the same thing, and we agree it is not the same thing, then there wasn't a misunderstanding |
| 04:11 | | * Reiver has never used any version control system at all. Across three professional business units. Yes, run in scream now. |
| 04:11 | <&McMartin> | However, it can hit the ACPI state. |
| 04:12 | <&[R]> | I can actually pop the W10 disk back in and show screenshots |
| 04:12 | <@Alek> | Sleep stores stuff in RAM and leaves it lightly powered. |
| 04:12 | <&[R]> | Right |
| 04:12 | < Pink> | I've still never actually set up a git repository |
| 04:12 | <&[R]> | Hence why I wanted hibernate. |
| 04:12 | < Pink> | Only used them |
| 04:12 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: You have however managed your own home directories, right? |
| 04:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Huh? Does "Power Off" in Win10 keep your programs running? o.O |
| 04:13 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: No. |
| 04:13 | <&[R]> | Like, I haven't ever called hibernate "sleep" so I'm really fucking confused why you keep bringing that fucking up |
| 04:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Then how is it the same as Hibernate...? |
| 04:13 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: You know how booting takes forever because it's initializing a bunch of stuff |
| 04:13 | <&McMartin> | "Shutdown" is acutally "reboot, then hibernate just as you're ready to provide the login screen" |
| 04:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 04:13 | <&[R]> | Okay |
| 04:13 | <&McMartin> | Which would not work if it could not carry out suspend-to-disk operations. |
| 04:14 | <&Reiver> | McMartin: E:\Gamedev\ or are you being cleverer than that |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | But that's part of ACPI |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: No, that's all |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | The target directory is where you want your stuff on your disk |
| 04:14 | <&[R]> | I am getting my W10 disk |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | I'm not gainsaying that your UI did not offer your options. |
| 04:14 | <&McMartin> | But your screenshots will prove as much as me taking screenshots of my GNOME control panel prove what can and cannot be configured on Linux |
| 04:15 | <&McMartin> | (That system is running GNOME 3) |
| 04:15 | <&McMartin> | (So it also thinks updating GVim requires a reboot.) |
| 04:15 | <&[R]> | cat /sys/power/state |
| 04:15 | <&[R]> | Ughh |
| 04:15 | <&[R]> | That's fucking bullshit |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: The github page for your repo should have a "clone or download" page, and it will offer a couple of cloning options. |
| 04:16 | <&McMartin> | Either should work; the https one will let you use passwords if you don't want to fiddle with signing keys for login |
| 04:17 | < Pink> | So, anyone particularly familiar with unity timeline? |
| 04:17 | <&Reiver> | I am afraid to say I am still installing Unity, so not yet~ |
| 04:30 | <&[R]> | OMFG, this is painfully slow |
| 04:31 | <&[R]> | Focus stealing, how I have not missed you at all |
| 04:32 | <&[R]> | Also maybe some blame should be shifted to Lenovo... booting this disk via BIOS made it go into a Win8 installer... |
| 04:32 | <&[R]> | I strongly suspect that's not normal |
| 04:33 | <&Reiver> | uh, no |
| 04:33 | <&[R]> | It is normal? |
| 04:36 | <&Reiver> | no |
| 04:38 | <@Alek> | mighta been a win8 machine originally with the free win10 upgrade applied. |
| 04:38 | <@Alek> | or something something |
| 04:39 | <&[R]> | Bear in mind: this is the W10 install that came with the machine, when bought from a store |
| 04:39 | <&[R]> | Costco specifically |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | That doesn't mean that it was designed with W10 as the factory install, as you well know. |
| 04:40 | <&Reiver> | Yeah no |
| 04:40 | <&Reiver> | Especially from something like Costco it is entirely possible the hardware sat around and got updated before selling as win10 via the upgrade |
| 04:40 | <&[R]> | Fair enough |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | At this late date if it's resetting I would not put high odds on it even accepting the update. |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | Unless it also had a Win10 OEM code with it or something. |
| 04:41 | <&[R]> | I got booted into W10 by switching back to UEFI boot temporarily |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | Also I'm not sure why you're doing this. |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | I'm not doubting your word that it wasn't an option available by default on your particular hardware. |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | I'm doubting that it's impossible to make it happen anywhere, in part on the grounds that someone else reconfigured their own system to do so over the course of this very conversation |
| 04:42 | <&[R]> | Fair enough, there's some stuff on it I didn't copy over, so I'll do that and swap the HDDs again |
| 04:43 | <&[R]> | Just *super* frustrating being on one job that needed a report, keeping all the images open so I could do that, going to the next job and *bam* power's dead. |
| 04:43 | <&[R]> | With no hibernate option in the shutdown menu |
| 04:44 | <&Reiver> | As noted again, if you're doing this in a work enviroment you're on the wrong liscence. |
| 04:44 | <&[R]> | Blame MS |
| 04:44 | <&Reiver> | No, blame your employer for being in breach |
| 04:44 | <&[R]> | Either make it piss easy to correct it, or stop selling shit like that |
| 04:44 | <&Reiver> | I will say that Home works fine for 95% of stuff you'd want to use Home for |
| 04:45 | <&Reiver> | And if being bossy around security updates is what it takes to stop the Massive Worm Exploits Of Yesteryear, I'm all for it |
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| 04:45 | <&Reiver> | Because in not trusting me to be sensibel, they're not trusting anyone else either, and this is very much a tragedy of the commons, and one an awful lot of people discounted out of hand then acted al pissy when they got breached anyway. |
| 04:45 | <&[R]> | I know why it's like that |
| 04:46 | | * Reiver shrugs. And if that's not acceptable, stop using the version of Windows specifically designed for The Plebs Who Cannot Be Trusted With Their Own Security Settings. |
| 04:46 | <&[R]> | Which is what I did |
| 04:46 | <&Reiver> | Upgrade to Pro? |
| 04:46 | <&[R]> | By switching to something else entirely |
| 04:46 | <&Reiver> | ha, well, same diff. |
| 04:46 | <&Reiver> | Jolly good. |
| 04:46 | <&[R]> | As mentioned, I haven't run W10 in a year |
| 04:47 | <&Reiver> | But don't blame Home's security system for being, effectively, an Enterprise enviroment where IT decides to reboot your computer for you, albeit at vast scale. |
| 04:47 | <&[R]> | Right, but here's the thing: small bussinesses |
| 04:47 | <&[R]> | The owner's going to buy the cheapest fucking thing |
| 04:47 | <&[R]> | And guess what? THEY HAVE *HOME* |
| 04:47 | <&[R]> | So... either make it piss easy to fix, or *stop* doing that. |
| 04:48 | <&Reiver> | no, have the business buy the right liscence and stop being a cheapskate |
| 04:48 | <&Reiver> | We're talking about buying Pro, not Enterprise, here |
| 04:48 | <&[R]> | Right |
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| 04:48 | <&[R]> | And I'm saying they're making the upgrade path stupid |
| 04:49 | <&Reiver> | In the meantime, it really does sound like your Inherent Flaws With Windows 10 are 'your boss was a cheapskate and it wasted a bunch of your work because your system was not fit for purpose' |
| 04:49 | <&[R]> | Which they are |
| 04:49 | <&[R]> | I looked for upgrades, and I got search results full of the 30$ dollar full license ones, which were sketchy as fuck |
| 04:49 | <&Reiver> | In the meantime, I'm going to try and put my attention back itno figuriging out Git. |
| 04:53 | < Pink> | Timeline is kind of amazing, and really shows a lot of the basic issues with unity. It is a powerful, moderately well designed NLE style editor... but it lacks absolutely basic functionality, including stuff that is ubiquitous through the rest of the software. |
| 04:55 | < Pink> | And almost every unity tool is like that. Almost every one has SOME weird little element that doesn't work with the rest of the software. |
| 04:57 | < Pink> | I just learned that you can set every parameter on on orthogonal cameras using an animation curve... except the zoom/scale. For some reason that parameter just isn't hooked up. You CAN a script that does nothing but set that parameter to match a parameter in the script, and then animate the script. |
| 04:58 | < Pink> | ...wow, my grammar has taken a nosedive in the past hour. |
| 05:01 | <&Reiver> | Pink: You're making me a tad nervous now >_> |
| 05:02 | < Pink> | Don't worry. |
| 05:03 | < Pink> | You're probably better equipped than I am for it. |
| 05:05 | < Pink> | Also probably a more practical project in mind:D |
| 05:05 | <&Reiver> | haha, oh dear |
| 05:05 | <&Reiver> | I am not equipped for anything at all |
| 05:05 | <&Reiver> | My strength is in databases. |
| 05:06 | <&Reiver> | Which is why my very first game... has nothing do with them |
| 05:06 | <&Reiver> | welp~ |
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| 05:06 | <&Reiver> | I *should* be building some monstrosity of a 4X stat-juggling monster |
| 05:06 | <&Reiver> | I have one in my head! |
| 05:06 | <&Reiver> | And yet I cannot even. |
| 05:06 | <&Reiver> | So hovercraft Toyota Wars it is. |
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| 05:13 | < Pink> | Hah |
| 05:14 | < Pink> | Database skills are incredibly useful for larger projects. |
| 05:27 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:47 | <&Reiver> | Aye. This isn't one of them~ |
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| 06:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh huh, looks like Twitter finally broke the one app that still works on my computer. |
| 06:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Not that I've even been using it lately, given that I mostly tweet from my phone... |
| 06:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Especially since it was replaced. |
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| 06:29 | <&Reiver> | Okay |
| 06:29 | <&Reiver> | I have a GitHub repository |
| 06:29 | <&Reiver> | I am now firing up Visual Studio |
| 06:29 | <&Reiver> | And it is asking me if I would like to clone or check out code from GitHub |
| 06:29 | <&Reiver> | Have I already done this, and should stick to futzing with the local stuff, or do I hook that straight into the internet too, or? |
| 06:41 | <&Reiver> | Pink: Any opinions on whether I want the latest Unity vs a 2018 LTS? |
| 06:44 | < Pink> | I'm using 2019.3 |
| 06:45 | <&Reiver> | the alpha? Is this a wise thing to do, or is it Eh, Good Enough? |
| 06:48 | < Pink> | A lot depends on what is important to you. A lot of long term issues have been fixed. |
| 06:48 | < Pink> | Most likely, it won't make any discernable difference to you. |
| 06:50 | | * Reiver nods. |
| 06:50 | <&Reiver> | Did you go with .3 for any particular reason? |
| 06:56 | | * Reiver scratches his head at options for build support |
| 06:56 | <&Reiver> | Gonna assume I need "Windows" |
| 06:56 | <&Reiver> | Do I want "Universal windows", and do I need to care at this stage about any of the other ones |
| 07:09 | <~Vorntastic> | Probably not |
| 07:16 | <&McMartin> | Universal Windows is a thing you don't care about |
| 07:16 | <&Reiver> | okay, thank you |
| 07:16 | <&McMartin> | That's the "maybe if we do work we haven't done it will also run on Xboxen some day as an Xbox store app!" and they have not done that work and also you don't get access to anything fun >_> |
| 07:16 | <&Reiver> | ... snerk |
| 07:16 | <&Reiver> | Duly noted~ |
| 07:17 | <&McMartin> | I mean |
| 07:17 | <&McMartin> | it (and the Windows/Xbox store stuff) is what spooked Gaben enough to make him port the Source engine to Linux and hire the SDL team to bring it into the modern era |
| 07:17 | <&McMartin> | So it's got that going for it, but you'll notice this is all about not having to use it >_> |
| 07:18 | <&McMartin> | My ignorant but serious answer is that by the time you really have to care, it's probably going to be something you manage through Unity's release options. |
| 07:21 | < Pink> | reiv- some of the preview packages require it. |
| 07:21 | < Pink> | And .2 had some problems that would take a long time to explain |
| 07:22 | <&Reiver> | But ones that you're pretty sure I don't care about in my own little corner? |
| 07:22 | < Pink> | Yes. |
| 07:22 | <&Reiver> | McMartin: Fair enough, and thank you |
| 07:22 | <&Reiver> | This is exactly the kind of stuff where I appreciate the million-questions stuff; I am spinning up with /way/ too little context of my own |
| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | That said |
| 07:23 | < Pink> | Well, basically, they've been going through a long process of moving away from having one monolithic application towards a more modular approach |
| 07:23 | <&McMartin> | A lot of the "fun stuff" you don't get is system-specific, so you shouldn't "need" it anyway, and anything that relies on a Windows-specific thing will be a headache once you want to do Mac/Linux/mobile releases. |
| 07:23 | < Pink> | Which is generally a good idea, since it lets you not include 5 gigs of packages for your tiny mobile game(for instance) |
| 07:25 | < Pink> | In this case, while migrating functionality, they accidentally closed off access to a small part of the core unity namespace- but only to scripts loaded in packages. |
| 07:25 | < Pink> | (that is, modules) |
| 07:26 | <~Vorntastic> | https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329400828920070144/615037536732971018/unknown.png |
| 07:27 | <&McMartin> | Some kind of entity system? |
| 07:27 | <~Vorntastic> | Clearly |
| 07:29 | <~Vorntastic> | (I don't know what the true context is but it's a cute little pun) |
| 07:30 | <&McMartin> | "Proposed by Caesar as present partiple of _esse_ 'be', to render Greek philosophical term _to on_ 'that which is'" |
| 07:30 | <&McMartin> | Latin: even Caesar had to make shit up |
| 07:54 | <&Reiver> | Latin: Only died out once people insisted it not change any more. |
| 08:01 | <&[R]> | Wasn't Italian invented because they wanted a more romantic (read: expressive) language than latin? |
| 08:02 | <&McMartin> | Italian as we know it was invented because Dante wanted to sell his books to a broader audience than the Learned or His Hometown. |
| 08:04 | <&McMartin> | https://www.languagesoftheworld.info/historical-linguistics/dante-alighieri-and-the-italian-language.html |
| 08:05 | <&McMartin> | I misremembered the attribution, though I did remember the line. |
| 08:05 | <&McMartin> | "As for modern standard Italian, its first literary expression is considered to be I Promessi Sposi (The Betrothed), a novel by Alessandro Manzoni, who described his language in the Preface to the 1840 edition as the Milanese dialect “rinsed in the waters of the Arno” (river in Florence)" |
| 08:05 | <&Reiver> | Okay! |
| 08:05 | <&McMartin> | And, uh, to be clear |
| 08:05 | <&Reiver> | I now have a VS account, a Unity account, and have successfully made and commited a change via the GitHub tutorial on the browser. |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | Italian comes into being As Standard Italian, in, um, 1861 |
| 08:06 | <&Reiver> | This is a Start(tm). |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: That is a start, and it will put you in fine stead on all future projects, Unity or no. |
| 08:06 | <&Reiver> | I should probably start an Actual Unity Tutorial next, and then start futzing with VS after that, so there's, er, something to futz with? |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | Seems reasonable. |
| 08:06 | <&Reiver> | One question you may or may not know |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | The tutorial I did years ago involved rolling a ball around a thing |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | This may have gotten cooler since. |
| 08:06 | <&Reiver> | VS is asking me whether I want to create a new project or hook into a GitHub project |
| 08:07 | <&Reiver> | This is a new project, or will be once I make one in Unity |
| 08:07 | <&Reiver> | Do I make a new VS one or is it "Make Unity, publish to GitHub (still a little fuzzy on that bit)", pull down via VS, futz with there? |
| 08:07 | | * Reiver moves the " to the end of the sentence. |
| 08:08 | <&McMartin> | Not sure offhand, but my honest suggestion is "your first Unity project is scratch; don't bother with Github, just fiddle with it in the expectation that once fiddled you will Destroy Everything" |
| 08:09 | <&Reiver> | That is a fair shake |
| 08:10 | <&Reiver> | Perhaps I should have been less specific in my enviroment naming, but that is fine |
| 08:11 | <~Vorntastic> | Reivers_first_unity_game_about_planes_do_not_steal |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | Our bold hero, Lt. Cmdr. Donut Steele |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | Oh wait, no |
| 08:12 | <&McMartin> | Operational Commander Donut Steele. |
| 08:12 | <&McMartin> | Since he's OC. |
| 08:12 | <~Vorntastic> | Yes |
| 08:12 | <&jeroud> | I seem to recall Unity being pretty self-contained, although the editor it opened for me to write code in appeared to be some third-party thing. |
| 08:12 | <&Reiver> | I have decided to come up with a name Velasquez in my game, somewhere. I don't yet know where. |
| 08:12 | <&Reiver> | Might be your commanding officer. |
| 08:12 | <&McMartin> | jeroud: That would have been MonoDevelop, but Xamarin has been purchased by Microsoft and the differences have been merged into the open-source editions of the Visual Studio experience, AIUI. |
| 08:13 | <&Reiver> | god, I have so many ideas for a game I pulled out of my ass while futzing about in Elite, what the hell |
| 08:14 | <&jeroud> | Halfway through that sentence, which was supposed to be a question about why VS instead of just Unity, I figured out the answer myself.~ |
| 08:14 | < Yossarian> | Is handedness a genetic trait or is it learned or both? |
| 08:14 | <&McMartin> | Genetic |
| 08:14 | <&Reiver> | Genetic |
| 08:14 | <&McMartin> | The history of attempts to make left-handers "unlearn" it are a fascinating history of obvious child abuse |
| 08:15 | <&Reiver> | To the point a particuarly infamous scottish clan had their keep tower's stairwell turning the opposite way to normal, so they could exploit Being Lefthanded to their advantage against anyone who attacked |
| 08:15 | <&jeroud> | But IIRC there's a spectrum, rather than a binary switch. |
| 08:15 | <&McMartin> | Ambidexterity is indeed known to the ancients. |
| 08:16 | <&jeroud> | Or maybe a switch with a spectrum. |
| 08:16 | <&jeroud> | I certainly know a lot of people who are lefthanded for some things but not other. |
| 08:18 | <&McMartin> | Oh sure |
| 08:18 | <&McMartin> | Not to mention, like |
| 08:18 | <&McMartin> | I'm going to be better with a parrying dagger in my left hand because it is my offhand. :) |
| 08:19 | <&McMartin> | And there are also the odd side bits |
| 08:19 | <&McMartin> | I cannot write legibly with my left hand, normally, but writing mirrorscript with it is a lot more feasible than it "should" be. |
| 08:19 | <&McMartin> | (It's still awful, though.) |
| 08:22 | <~Vorntastic> | I can only think of like 2 things where in exclusively left handed |
| 08:22 | <~Vorntastic> | Writing is one of them |
| 08:22 | <&jeroud> | Something Bunnee noticed recently is while as a sinistral she writes loops clockwise, us dextrals tend to write them widdershins. |
| 08:22 | <~Vorntastic> | I'm* |
| 08:23 | <&McMartin> | My script-S starts widdershins and ends deasil. |
| 08:23 | <&jeroud> | She uses scissors dextrally, though, because sinistral scissors are less common and more expensive. |
| 08:23 | <&McMartin> | And I'm honestly not sure how else I could do it. |
| 08:24 | <~Vorntastic> | Knives? Ten key? Swype? Various gross motor functions? All ambidextrous |
| 08:24 | <&McMartin> | Scissors always struck me as less a matter of, hrm, sinistral dexterity and more about Where The Blade Ends Up Actually Being. |
| 08:24 | <&jeroud> | She was observing closed loops specifically, primarily "o". |
| 08:24 | <&McMartin> | ... oh. She prints. |
| 08:25 | | * McMartin writes manuscript in the D'Nealian hand, which involves a lot of mid-letter reversals. |
| 08:25 | <&jeroud> | Yeah. Scissors have definite chirality which complicates things. |
| 08:25 | <&McMartin> | Chirality was the word I was looking for |
| 08:26 | <&McMartin> | This also means that when she shifts hands to scissor something in half |
| 08:26 | <&McMartin> | You need to put on your deepest Mortal Kombat voice and intone BUNNEE WINS. CHIRALITY. |
| 08:26 | <~Vorntastic> | What. |
| 08:27 | <&jeroud> | My hypothesis on the writing is that since your writing hand is typically holding the paper in place its more convenient to start lines moving away from the hand. |
| 08:27 | <&McMartin> | This also means your palm doesn't risk smearing the text. |
| 08:28 | <&jeroud> | Because it reduces the risk of the stylus moving the paper. |
| 08:28 | <&McMartin> | Vorntastic: There was once an attempt to do a compilation of Mortal Kombat finishers to go with the Dalek verb list |
| 08:28 | <&McMartin> | Unfortunately, the third one added to the list was BANALITY and this was deemed to encompass all possible other results. |
| 08:29 | <~Vorntastic> | The banality of gory death is certainly a thing |
| 08:29 | <&jeroud> | The text smearing is likely why we write left->right. |
| 08:29 | <&McMartin> | Look, when you explode into bones and gore and there are three complete ribcages, it's hard to take it seriously |
| 08:30 | <&jeroud> | I've always wondered if cultures with right->left languages have historically had a higher incidence of sinistrality. |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | ISTR that a lot of the earliest writing systems alternated LTR and RTL on each line, which complicates this |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | But does let me use the word boustrophedonic. |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | "In the manner of plowing a field" |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | We plow our paper WITH WORDS |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of words |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | The only piece left of my UQM conversion that is blocking me getting a vaguely runnable test version is unicode text input. |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | But I think that can wait for another day. |
| 08:39 | <&jeroud> | I'm pretty sure cuneiform was ltr, and that's because it's generally written densely on small tablets with the stylus in the strong hand. |
| 08:41 | <&jeroud> | Boustrophedonic writings are often large inscriptions where obscuring text just written costs less than moving back to the other side between lines. |
| 08:41 | <&jeroud> | Think hieroglyphs on the walls of a monument. |
| 08:43 | <&jeroud> | Meanwhile! I have more of a Scheme to write. |
| 08:44 | <&jeroud> | (So far it can add numbers and define/lookup variables.) |
| 08:44 | <&jeroud> | (I have a long way to go before R5RS compliance.) |
| 08:48 | < Yossarian> | Damn, Louis Rossmann has almost 1mil subs, what a pimp. |
| 08:49 | < Yossarian> | I wonder if he has learned enough to start making his own boards, need that 35W mobile Ryzen custom board to stuff into a nice Thinkpad chassis ;) |
| 08:50 | < Yossarian> | ah, sorry, not #hardware :( |
| 09:41 | <~Vorntastic> | Huh. I've learned how to do Lights Out sometime in the past month |
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| 15:52 | <~Vornicus> | Well this looks suspiciously like a decimal carry algorithm |
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| 16:58 | <~Vornicus> | It is a decimal carry algorithm. Okay this function 1. updates the scores via carries, 2. updates the high score at the same time. |
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| 22:40 | < Pink> | I really should move from monodevelop to visual studio |
| 22:42 | <@Reiv> | I am liking VS so far. |
| 22:43 | <@Reiv> | It is pleasing to have a full-powered IDE under my wing instead of some crummy secondary software. |
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| 23:34 | < Pink> | Oh, and I have encountered one minor issue with 2019.3 that you may or may not see, where you get a bunch of "Object at index 0 is null" errors. All you have to do is close the inspector panel and reopen it. Not sure if it is 2019.3 or one of the preview packages I'm using precipitating that, but the big red(but harmless) error messages can be alarming. |
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| 23:59 | <@Reiv> | Huh, interesting, cheers |
| --- Log closed Mon Aug 26 00:00:01 2019 |