| --- Log opened Wed Jun 19 00:00:54 2019 |
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| 01:37 | <&McMartin> | https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/18/18684272/firefox-zero-day-flaw-browser-attacks-crypto-patch |
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| 10:13 | <@sshine> | I'm digging for some software principle that I think I've heard before but can't phrase properly. |
| 10:14 | <@sshine> | something like "don't use foreign keys as primary keys", but maybe without the database lingo. |
| 10:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Something related to Coupling, maybe? |
| 10:20 | <~Vorntastic> | Index don't search |
| 10:21 | <@TheWatcher> | Don't be a dingus? |
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| 11:34 | <@sshine> | basically: don't use some externally provided ID as a key in your data structure |
| 11:34 | <@sshine> | so stuff like this doesn't happen: https://github.com/exercism/ocaml/issues/300#issuecomment-503155747 |
| 11:47 | <~Vorntastic> | Oh, that |
| 11:47 | <~Vorntastic> | Primary Keys Should Be Meaningless |
| 11:55 | <~Vorntastic> | https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-great-primary-key-debate/ |
| 11:59 | <@TheWatcher> | "This article settles the debate once and for all." hooboy |
| 12:01 | <@TheWatcher> | I mean, the argument is pretty skookum, them's fighting words. |
| 12:01 | <@TheWatcher> | *but them's |
| 12:02 | <~Vorntastic> | Tbf, I didn't think there was a debate |
| 12:02 | <@TheWatcher> | How long've you been programming for, Vorn? |
| 12:03 | <~Vorntastic> | Coming up on 18 years. I downloaded Python in October 200q |
| 12:03 | <~Vorntastic> | 1 |
| 12:03 | <@TheWatcher> | About what I guessed, heh. |
| 12:04 | <@TheWatcher> | In that time, have you ever come across anything that isn't subject to some amount of debate?~ |
| 12:04 | <@TheWatcher> | If not outright Holy Wars? >.> |
| 12:05 | <~Vorntastic> | The spelling of `if` |
| 12:06 | <@TheWatcher> | :P |
| 12:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, that does depend on the language, too - I mean, [ in brainfuck, or _ and | in befunge |
| 12:16 | <~Vorntastic> | Ay |
| 12:16 | <~Vorntastic> | Or, I suppose, ?? In schlockian |
| 12:23 | <@TheWatcher> | Computer scientists: we agree on nothing except the perfidity of management |
| 12:27 | <&Reiver> | The arguement is correct, but also encounters some fun problems |
| 12:27 | <@ErikMesoy> | And the dysfunction of everyone else's software, surely? |
| 12:28 | <&Reiver> | eg, any database that has to collect data asyncronously has to get /really/ creative with how it reconciles that data later |
| 12:28 | <&Reiver> | There are multiple solutions |
| 12:28 | <&Reiver> | They all suck |
| 12:29 | <&Reiver> | Let me tell you about an enterprise management solution released by, I shit you not, IBM |
| 12:29 | <&Reiver> | It has been /very/ thoroughly engineered |
| 12:29 | <&Reiver> | It has been engineered to within an inch of its life |
| 12:29 | <@TheWatcher> | ErikMesoy: true |
| 12:29 | <&Reiver> | This is, granted, because it is meant to help manage everything up to and including the asset inventories and maintainence schedule of, oh, /oil rigs in the north sea/ |
| 12:30 | <&Reiver> | So it is very... thorough. |
| 12:30 | <&Reiver> | ... and has rendered primary keys non-unique. Because you can't trust the site had a functioning central cellphone connection at the time the shipment arrived. -_- |
| 12:31 | <&Reiver> | Let us stop and consider this a moment. :3 |
| 12:32 | <&Reiver> | (There is a solution, but that line alone is hilarious) |
| 12:50 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
| 13:03 | <@sshine> | Vorntastic, ahhh, excellent, thanks for pointing to that. |
| 13:03 | <@sshine> | Vorntastic, I guess that was actually exactly the point I was aiming for, but I realize that the point I should be making is slightly different and that I haven't seen an authoritative resource on that. |
| 13:04 | <~Vorntastic> | Explain |
| 13:04 | <@sshine> | the difference, as I see it, is that the git commit hash in this sad case isn't a primary key; it's simply a borrowed key with meaning. |
| 13:05 | <@sshine> | maybe what I'm trying to say is that *foreign keys* also should be meaningless? |
| 13:06 | <~Vorntastic> | Obviously, as foreign keys would be referring to primary keys |
| 13:15 | <~Vorntastic> | I get grumpy at WordPress because of its tendency to keep filenames of media uploads, for various reasons. I prefer it randomize like imgur does |
| 13:18 | | * ErikMesoy grumbles about the region names on this database. |
| 13:20 | <@ErikMesoy> | North, South, West, Southwest, fine, Central Norway, fine. Having both a "North" and a "Northland" is an invitation to trouble. |
| 13:20 | <@ErikMesoy> | "Northern Westland" (there is no Westland, there is no other subdivision of Westland). |
| 13:21 | <@ErikMesoy> | "Oslo". Are we naming this for directions or placenames or what? |
| 13:21 | <@ErikMesoy> | Northern Eastland, Central Eastland, Eastern Eastland, Western Eastland!?!? |
| 13:22 | <@ErikMesoy> | Compounded by "Northland" being the literal name of a Norwegian province, but there is no such province as "Eastland". |
| 13:29 | <&Reiver> | oh my goodness |
| 13:30 | <&Reiver> | That is clearly someone naming based on departmental divisions that then got subdivided, I hope? |
| 13:30 | <&Reiver> | I mean, that would at least make sense of the terrible names - a mishmash of legacy names, special cases, and at least one set of subdivisions (Clearly the generic 'Eastland' was far too big, that it was later split in four.) |
| 13:35 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't know, but that sounds plausible. |
| 13:38 | <&Reiver> | So a major city had a location to itself - it was busy enough, after all - while "Pfft, I dunno, everything in the eastern region is fine" <some years later> "Okaaaay Eastern Region took off, we need to split it up for the managers, uh, northern, east, west, central, and we'll split northern off to itself, it's got weird shit up there" etc |
| 13:38 | <&Reiver> | I've seen such things before |
| 13:38 | <&Reiver> | NZ has a bad habit of having, say, South Island, Lower North Island, Upper North Island, and Auckland (which is itself in the northern north island) |
| 13:39 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 13:39 | <&Reiver> | Especially terrible when either of the North Island ones are called Taupo due to historical shit like "We had a central manager for the entire not-auckland north island before we split it in two, and welp too late to move the office I guess" etc |
| 13:40 | <&Reiver> | So the Taupo region is, well, directly in the centre of the country, well done those folks |
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| 13:40 | | * Reiver shrugs, sets it all on fire |
| 13:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | Western Eastland has ten sub-regions: seven with ordinary Norwegian names like Horten and Larvik, three with WTF-is-this-legacy-naming of Coastal Telemark, Central Upper Telemark, and Westfold North. |
| 13:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | A peek at the master list of all sub-regions indicates that nothing else has 'Telemark' in the name at all. |
| 13:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Westfold North Western Eastland? |
| 13:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | TheWatcher: Westfold North is a sub-region of the Western Eastland region, yes. |
| 13:43 | <@TheWatcher> | I believe at this point someone is - to use the technical and specific term - taking the piss. |
| 13:43 | | * ErikMesoy bursts into giggles. |
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| 13:58 | <@celmin|away> | (WTH are we talking about anyway...) |
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| 18:54 | | * McMartin reads backscroll |
| 18:55 | <&McMartin> | Looks like someone forgot that Denmark is the center of the universe~ |
| 19:01 | < Emmy> | 0.o? |
| 19:02 | <&McMartin> | Norway is The North Way, with the West and East ways being the seas to either side, and I have a vague recollection that I never was able to re-confirm that, essentially, "southway" was on old exonym for Germany |
| 19:03 | <&McMartin> | And clearly that is answering the question "how are you leaving Denmark" |
| 19:03 | < Emmy> | Aha |
| 19:04 | <&McMartin> | Time for kernel upgrades |
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| 20:37 | <@abudhabi> | Is it just me, or has half the internet gone down? |
| 20:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Don't see any particular issues |
| 20:41 | <@TheWatcher> | Where're you having problems with? |
| 20:42 | <@abudhabi> | Google, for one. |
| 20:42 | <@abudhabi> | Twitter. |
| 20:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Nope, fine here |
| 20:43 | <@abudhabi> | Bunch of other random things. |
| 20:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Tried a different DNS? |
| 20:43 | <@abudhabi> | I'd google how to do that, but... |
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| 20:44 | <@TheWatcher> | What're you on? |
| 20:44 | <@abudhabi> | Mint. |
| 20:45 | <@TheWatcher> | /etc/resolv.conf should have 'nameserver <ip>' in there. Try changing it to 'nameserver 8.8.8.8' |
| 20:46 | <@abudhabi> | Why is there a local address in here? 127.0.0.53 |
| 20:47 | <@TheWatcher> | systemd~ |
| 20:47 | <@abudhabi> | Should I perhaps reboot my routers? |
| 20:49 | <@TheWatcher> | If setting the nameserver explicitly doesn't help, might be worth it |
| 21:10 | <@abudhabi> | Didn't help. Welp, maybe something was fried in the PL internets by the 40 C heat. |
| 21:10 | | * abudhabi resorts to emergency internets. |
| 21:27 | <@Alek> | let us not forget iff |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | Identification Friend or Foe? If and Only If? Interchange File Format? |
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| 22:18 | <@Alek> | second one. |
| 22:18 | <@Alek> | the first one would be all-caps, the third would be preceded by a dot. :P |
| 22:18 | < Emmy> | @ McMartin: interestingly, we called the sea between the Wadden islands, the Hollands and the rest of the country the 'Southern Sea' despite being north! XD |
| 22:19 | < Emmy> | IIf=Immediate If :d |
| 22:25 | <@Alek> | that's a new one to me |
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| 23:23 | < Emmy> | It's a thing in Access VBA/SQL |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | What does it signify? |
| 23:24 | < Emmy> | Essentially: IIf(BoolStatement,OutputTrue,OutputFalse) from the top of my head |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | That's what it looks like; it doesn't tell me what it means |
| 23:26 | < Emmy> | https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/office/vba/Language/Reference/user-interface-help/iif-function |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | Ah, it's a non-special-form version, in Scheme-ese |
| 23:28 | < Emmy> | Specifically, it's very useful for datasets like qry recordsets where you need to translate, say, a bln field into language-appropriate words |
| 23:28 | < Emmy> | or when you need to replace Nulls with 0 or vice-versa |
| 23:28 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | I'm going to read "immediate" here as "only use constants in your clauses here plz" |
| 23:29 | < Emmy> | Nah, can be any (valid) expression, including, say, Domain Lookups or function calls. |
| 23:30 | < Emmy> | provided the return data, that is |
| 23:30 | < Emmy> | *the->they |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, though the vibe I get from that MSDN page is that "can" very much does not mean "should" |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | Since both branches are always evaluated, which means the test can't be used to validate input |
| 23:31 | < Emmy> | One of the drawbacks of (Access) VBA work is that, because it's so accessible, you encounter a lot of existent work made by people who do not have the kind of grasp of Data/collection theory and good coding practices. |
| 23:32 | | * McMartin nods |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | Both a blessing and a curse |
| 23:32 | < Emmy> | yap. |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | And of course, experts in something else (like, say, me, who is very much a systems dude) will be just as dangerous as some random marketing analyst |
| 23:32 | < Emmy> | no difference, really |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | There is a certain failing amongst folks like me to assume our expertise generalizes more than it does :p |
| 23:33 | < Emmy> | Ehhh, it's not just IT people. |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | I'm not IT either; "systems" in this case means "writes software but mostly in C-or-C++-that-looks-like-polite-assembly-code" |
| 23:34 | < Emmy> | Oh well |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | Terminology is awful |
| 23:36 | < Emmy> | in the end, i shouldnt complain. About 50% of my company's business is taking over other 'amateurs' jobs that have been running for anywhere between 5-20yrs. |
| 23:36 | < Emmy> | Not a lot of software can claim those continuous usage histories. :P |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | Frankly, 'amateurs' get a worse rap than they deserve |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | But sometimes they deserve so much >_> |
| 23:37 | < Emmy> | Most of the rub is not so much code quality, but lack of documentation and planning |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and also a side of https://xkcd.com/2116/ |
| 23:38 | < Emmy> | since those projects tend to be far larger than the original plan ever considered, and cooperation or succession was never even thought of in the first place |
| 23:40 | < Emmy> | Anyway. |
| 23:40 | < Emmy> | I should go sudo apt-get sleep with some priority. |
| 23:43 | < Emmy> | https://www.xkcd.com/149/ |
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| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | Ahahaha |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | Today in "naming things is terrible" |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | "It’s important to note that the term “package” in this context is being used as a synonym for a distribution (i.e. a bundle of software to be installed), not to refer to the kind of package that you import in your Python source code (i.e. a container of modules). It is common in the Python community to refer to a distribution using the term “package”. Using the term “distribution” is often |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | not preferred, because it can easily be confused with a Linux distribution, or another larger software distribution like Python itself." |
| --- Log closed Thu Jun 20 00:00:31 2019 |