| --- Log opened Mon Apr 29 00:00:34 2019 |
| 00:12 | | Netsplit Deepthought.Nightstar.Net <-> Krikkit.Nightstar.Net quits: @celticminstrel, @Derakon, @gnolam, bluefoxx_, @Alek, @jeroud, @PinkFreud, Mahal, @Syloq, @jerith, (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
| 00:14 | | Netsplit over, joins: &jeroud, Mahal, &jerith, @Reiv, @Tamber, Kizor, @celticminstrel, &Derakon, bluefoxx_, @gnolam (+4 more) |
| 00:37 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-u2u5jj.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 00:54 | | PinkFreud [WhyNot@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 00:54 | | mode/#code [+o PinkFreud] by ChanServ |
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| 03:12 | | Netsplit Deepthought.Nightstar.Net <-> Krikkit.Nightstar.Net quits: @PinkFreud |
| 03:54 | | catalyst [Jessikat@Nightstar-5dv16h.cable.virginm.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 04:32 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-dfsc7k.optusnet.com.au] has joined #code |
| 04:59 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-5cqq2e.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 05:03 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, I found my old reference/tutorial book on programming BeOS. |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | "The Be Operating System is a greapt platform just waiting for applications", says the back cover copy. |
| 06:07 | <@Alek> | typo and all? |
| 06:10 | <&McMartin> | The typo is mine |
| 06:10 | <&McMartin> | But 20 years later, it's still waiting~ |
| 06:49 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-6br85t.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 07:28 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
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| 08:27 | <@gnolam> | Heh. |
| 08:27 | <@gnolam> | Man. BeOS. That is a name I haven't heard in a loooooooong time. |
| 08:28 | <&McMartin> | Apparently back in September Haiku left alpha status! |
| 09:00 | | McMartin is now known as McMartin[AFK] |
| 09:06 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 13:31 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-5cqq2e.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 13:55 | | celticminstrel is now known as celmin|away |
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| 14:19 | | ServerMode/#code [+o PinkFreud] by *.Nightstar.Net |
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| 15:16 | | * TheWatcher eyes this |
| 15:16 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 15:16 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 15:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Why are you complaining about CORS when loading from the same fucking server?! |
| 15:34 | <@TheWatcher> | OH WAIT. IT'S NOT CORS, IT'S A PARSER ERROR. Thank you, fucking thing... |
| 15:36 | | * Vornicus gives TW a cheese |
| 15:37 | | * TheWatcher consumes it |
| 15:38 | <~Vornicus> | I really need to figure out a designing workflow I can actually live with |
| 15:39 | <@TheWatcher> | how do you mean? |
| 15:40 | <~Vornicus> | Like, okay I 've got this javascript thing I've been futzing with. I went away from it for a little while and I've forgotten what I was doing and how I wanted things to fit together and it's very frustrating because I don't have anything written down at all |
| 15:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, hell, that >.> Yeah, me too. |
| 16:06 | <~Vornicus> | And while I've tried, like, putting notes in a text editor or onenote or trello it's... too freeform sometimes? it's... okay so once upon a time I was tutoring people in MS office stuff and a lot of people said they found Access easier to work with than Excel and I think a lot of it was that Access you tended to work in a very particular way and Excel you kind of made it up as you went along and that could do a lot of great stuff but damn |
| 16:06 | <~Vornicus> | figuring out what structure you want for your thing is annoying, especially if it's a thing you're not that good at in the first place. |
| 16:17 | <~Vornicus> | and then I want to use something a little neater like an issue tracker but they don't seem to make those you can just ... run? it's always a pain in the ass to set up if you don't already have a webserver or it costs cash money or it requires you to put your shit public |
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| 17:25 | | mode/#code [+qo Vorntastic Vorntastic] by ChanServ |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've had some success using Taskwarrior as an issue tracker; it doesn't require any service setup and you can have per-project task lists using TASKDIR |
| 17:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's tty only, though. |
| 18:24 | <&jeroud> | You can self-host JIRA if you have a bunch of spare capacity and lot of self-loathing. |
| 18:24 | <~Vornicus> | man half the reason i write a lot of js nowadays is that I already have a development environment installed |
| 18:39 | <&jeroud> | Last time I tried to write some JS I found the dev environment very frustrating. |
| 18:39 | <&jeroud> | Mostly because `npm`. |
| 18:41 | <&[R]> | npm is a flaming pile of trash that has increasingly insisted on becoming and even bigger pile of flaming trash |
| 18:41 | | * [R] does a ton of stuff with node.js |
| 18:42 | <~Vornicus> | yeah npm is not on my radar at all, mostly because I'm *extremely* uncomfortable with js as a server side language |
| 18:57 | <&jeroud> | I've had to use npm for client stuff as well. :-( |
| 19:31 | < Emmy> | npm? dont you mean nmp |
| 19:32 | < Emmy> | like 'not my problem' :P |
| 19:33 | <&jeroud> | I'm very glad npm is mostly nmp these days. |
| 19:34 | <&jeroud> | I have become convinced that the state of software in general is rather worse now than it was five years ago. |
| 19:34 | < Emmy> | everything is secretly a website nowadays |
| 19:35 | <&jeroud> | No, very few things are *secretly* a website. |
| 19:37 | <&jeroud> | Anyway, five years ago the worst programming language was PHP. |
| 19:37 | < Emmy> | not even VBA? |
| 19:38 | < Emmy> | :P |
| 19:38 | <&jeroud> | Not since .NET. |
| 19:38 | < Emmy> | ...you do know VBA doesnt use .NET, right :P |
| 19:38 | <&jeroud> | Nobody ever wrote anything I cared about in PHP. |
| 19:40 | <&jeroud> | Nope, because I don't use anything VBA is in. |
| 19:40 | <&jeroud> | I tutored VB6 at university, though, and PHP is definitely worse. |
| 19:41 | <~Vornicus> | I did a lot of work a few years back in php |
| 19:41 | <&jeroud> | (My subjective opinion, of course.) |
| 19:41 | <&jeroud> | The thing about PHP is that it's *possible* to write high quality code in it. |
| 19:41 | <~Vornicus> | Sure |
| 19:41 | <&jeroud> | You just have to be really really good. |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin[AFK]> | "possible" |
| 19:42 | <~Vornicus> | I was very frightened the moment I realized what was happening under the hood re: function calls |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin[AFK]> | That word is doing a very large amount of heavy lifting |
| 19:42 | <~Vornicus> | to wit: |
| 19:43 | <~Vornicus> | PHP has barewords. if it's not a keyword, and it's not preceded by a dollar sign, a word is a string literal |
| 19:43 | <~Vornicus> | yes, even function names |
| 19:43 | <&jeroud> | I'm sure I've told my Ruby debugging story here. |
| 19:45 | <~Vornicus> | yes, that means function calls are in fact "plop a string literal, then operator() on strings looks up a function defined under that string" |
| 19:45 | <&jeroud> | Where a colleague and I spent most of a day figuring out why code with an obvious tyop (`flase` in place of `false`) had been operating correctly in production for months. |
| 19:45 | <@ErikMesoy> | I recall being surprised that a game was actually a website (running locally) around ten years ago, because its save files were .html |
| 19:46 | <~Vornicus> | okay what the hell |
| 19:46 | <~Vornicus> | jeroud: I don't remember that one |
| 19:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm guessing a similar failure mode to lua here, where undefined variables are implicitly nil and nil has the false-nature? |
| 19:47 | <~Vornicus> | ErikMesoy: whyyyyy would you do that instead of json, but also I am reminded of King's Bounty for the C64 where the savegame is literally the whole program with the procgen portions solidified |
| 19:47 | <&jeroud> | Long story short, `method_missing` from some unrelated code had escaped its confines and somehow ended up in scope. |
| 19:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, that's way more exciting than my guess. |
| 19:48 | <&[R]> | Vornicus: because you can store state and code in .html, to load JSON you'd need a webserver |
| 19:48 | <~Vornicus> | What TF said |
| 19:49 | <&jeroud> | So `flase` expanded to `method_missing("flase", [])` which had a catchall `return nil` at the end. |
| 19:49 | <~Vornicus> | D: |
| 19:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | How...delightful |
| 19:50 | <&jeroud> | The method_missing implementation actually made sense for the class it was on. |
| 19:51 | <&jeroud> | The problem was that it had ended up in something else's inheritance hierarchy. |
| 19:51 | <@ErikMesoy> | Vornicus: I have no idea why the developer would do that, but it may be related to how the game was written in Visual Basic. |
| 19:51 | <@ErikMesoy> | Also, how old is json? The game might have been older. |
| 19:52 | <~Vornicus> | 2001ish? |
| 19:53 | <&jeroud> | JSON is old enough to know better, but still makes a nuisance of itself all over the place. |
| 19:54 | <&jeroud> | I am particularly grumpy about its refusal to allow trailing commas. |
| 19:56 | <&jeroud> | Anyway, to return to my original point, it is *possible* to write high quality code in PHP. (See also: TheWatcher's Perl.) |
| 19:56 | <&[R]> | <jeroud> I am particularly grumpy about its refusal to allow trailing commas. <-- that's because one of it's design goals was to be able to be parsed with JS' eval(). While Spidermonkey and v8 allow trailing commas, JScript did not. |
| 19:57 | <&jeroud> | It is *not* possible to write high quality code in Go. |
| 19:57 | <&[R]> | RE: PHP and high quality code, I agree, you just need to not be an idiot |
| 19:57 | | * ErikMesoy pokes around |
| 19:57 | <&[R]> | Is it possibly to write decent code in VB? |
| 19:57 | <&[R]> | All the VB code I've seen is UAF |
| 19:58 | <@ErikMesoy> | Apparently proto-JSON was around in 1996, made A Thing in 2001, started to spread outside of origin milieu around 2004. |
| 19:59 | <~Vornicus> | nowadays if you want saves for that sort of thing you just make your browserapp have LocalStorage and you win |
| 20:00 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-6br85t.irccloud.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] |
| 20:00 | <@ErikMesoy> | So I suspect the developer might not have heard of JSON when writing the MTG knockoff in question |
| 20:09 | | * TheWatcher readsup, notes that Go strikes him as "I want to work in somehting horible and hacky that gets compiled, and you can't do that with javascript just yet" |
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| 22:11 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: It's "Google didn't have their own language, so they hired Rob Pike". |
| 22:12 | <&jerith> | It's a condescending language designed for people who aren't smart enough for a *good* language. |
| --- Log closed Mon Apr 29 22:16:40 2019 |
| --- Log opened Mon Apr 29 22:16:46 2019 |
| 22:16 | | TheWatcher [chris@GlobalOperator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
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| 22:41 | <&[R]> | How is Go's predecessor then? |
| 22:41 | | * [R] is currently blanking on the name |
| 22:46 | <&jerith> | Limbo? |
| 22:47 | <&[R]> | Possibly? |
| 22:47 | <&[R]> | Ah yeah |
| 22:49 | <&jerith> | I hadn't heard of it until I went looking now. |
| 22:50 | <&[R]> | What specifically is bad about Go anyways? |
| 22:51 | <&jerith> | The major problem I have with it is that its many deficiencies add up to an inability to build sensible abstractions. |
| 22:52 | <&jerith> | As an example, take concurrency -- one of its big selling points. |
| 22:52 | <&jerith> | Channels and goroutines are |
| 22:53 | <&jerith> | Channels and goroutines aren't the worst primitives for that. |
| 22:54 | <&jerith> | Except channels are typed, and the lack of generics means you have to use the primitives everywhere. |
| 22:56 | <&jerith> | You can't build anything like Erlang's OTP, which is a collection of general-purpose high level tools for actually using concurrency. |
| 22:59 | <&jerith> | Instead, you get https://blog.golang.org/advanced-go-concurrency-patterns which is 30 minutes of turning simple-but-broken code into complex-and-probably-still-broken code. |
| 23:08 | <&jerith> | [R]: Does that answer your question? |
| 23:09 | <&[R]> | Aye |
| 23:09 | <&jerith> | There are also a bunch of slightly less dramatic issues. |
| 23:10 | <&jerith> | It is a Java-level verbose, except the verbosity isn't boilerplate so IDEs help less. |
| 23:10 | <&jerith> | -a |
| 23:11 | <&jerith> | The module system is... not very well thought out. |
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| 23:38 | <&jerith> | Actually, I take that back. The module system works reasonably well when everything's part of one gigantic megarepo. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Apr 30 00:00:36 2019 |