| --- Log opened Sun Apr 21 00:00:11 2019 |
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| 02:32 | | * Reiver ponders his job, and his options, grimly. |
| 02:33 | <&Reiver> | If I wanted to take up freelancing, is there any real hope for an SQL/data expert instead of a proper programmer? |
| 02:51 | <&Derakon> | It's all a question of demand, isn't it? |
| 02:51 | <&Derakon> | Freelancing isn't that different from being a full-time employee in that sense. |
| 02:58 | <&Reiver> | right, sure, but more |
| 02:58 | <&Reiver> | I have no idea where to even start or consider it. |
| 02:58 | <&Reiver> | I've just had an epiphany that working the In The Office, 40hrs Per Week, does not, and probably never did, suit me. |
| 02:59 | <&Reiver> | It makes me sick, and then I'm sick enough that I can't work but I go back anyway because you need the work, and the commute wipes me out, aaaand |
| 02:59 | <&Reiver> | And when my most productive days are working from home, and I feel a thousand times healthier when I can choose to /not/ work on a given day, if I need to, maybe it's something I should be considering. |
| 02:59 | <&Reiver> | But heck if I know where to start. |
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| 03:39 | <&Reiver> | hey McMartin, do you know much about freelance coders? Are they a /thing/? |
| 03:40 | <&McMartin> | "Yes but" |
| 03:40 | <&McMartin> | The respectable way to do this is to be an independent contractor who takes contracts to work for fixed spans on specific projects |
| 03:40 | <&McMartin> | The less respectable ways are in the Uber/sweatshop space. |
| 04:36 | <&Reiver> | And one imagines the sweatshop space is as miserable as it is easy to enter into. |
| 04:38 | <&Derakon> | Generally, yeah. |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | There are websites where you accept paltry wages to implement individual functions |
| 04:38 | <&Derakon> | It sounds like the ideal for you might be to find a company you can remote for. |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | This is totally not doing people's homework for them. |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, working remotely is a very different beast, totally orthogonal to whether you're an employee or a contractor |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | Back when I did contract work I was almost always on-site. |
| 04:39 | <&Derakon> | I guess that doesn't have the "I don't feel like working today" aspect to it, necessarily, but I feel like contractor doesn't reliably provide that either. |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | Quite the opposite, in my case |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | As a contractor I was paid by the hour. |
| 04:40 | <&Derakon> | Well, yeah, as a contractor you don't get paid if you don't work. |
| 04:40 | <&Derakon> | But I was more talking about expectations as to time worked per week. |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | With a salary I have more freedom to devote time to various tasks as they come up. |
| 04:40 | <&Derakon> | That depends more on your employer than the nature of your employment, I think. |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | It can |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | But when you're charging clients by the hour the bookkeeping is *always* required. |
| 04:57 | <&[R]> | Freelancing also pretty much means you're always "jobhunting" |
| 04:57 | <&[R]> | Since it's all temporary contracts |
| 04:57 | <&[R]> | You don't get benefits directly, you just get the extra dosh |
| 04:59 | <&Reiver> | Yeah |
| 04:59 | <&Reiver> | I'm quite aware of the shortcomings |
| 04:59 | <&Reiver> | But salary is killing me. |
| 05:00 | <&[R]> | Ofph |
| 05:00 | <&[R]> | Salary is balls |
| 05:00 | <&Reiver> | I don't know. I guess it'd have been better had I not graduated in the recession, grabbed the first job I was offered before I drowned in debt, and am now pigeonholed squarely into mid-level technical expertise for medium-to-large corporations in which I matter naught but as a cog and to hell with anything else. |
| 05:01 | <&Reiver> | But we're in the middle of afour day weekend and I can't believe just how good it feels. And when I am (very rarely) allowed to Work From Home, I'm honestly more productive and it's incredibly de-stressing as well. |
| 05:02 | <&Reiver> | I'd take more four-day-weekends, but I burn all my leave on being sick, presumably from stress -_- |
| 05:02 | <&[R]> | D: |
| 05:02 | <&Reiver> | I'd say "Maybe I just need another job", but I don't even hate the current one, beyond the Treated As A Cog part! |
| 05:02 | <&[R]> | Lack of agency is pretty soul crushing |
| 05:02 | <&Reiver> | So then freelancing starts to sound good. But it sounds like you really need established interactions with others before you try it. |
| 05:03 | <&Reiver> | Else you're sweatshopping, and that's no better. |
| 05:03 | <&Reiver> | Yeah, I'm just burned out. Not great for my mid 30s. |
| 05:03 | <&[R]> | You have to be pretty baller at marketting yourself |
| 05:06 | <&Derakon> | Burnout can happen at any age. It's just work-induced depression, basically. |
| 05:07 | <&Derakon> | (Which is not to belittle it at all) |
| 05:07 | <&[R]> | Depression sucks hard |
| 05:07 | <&[R]> | I had it for ~7 years |
| 05:08 | <&Reiver> | A pity the option for dealing with it cuts our family income by 60%, then. |
| 05:08 | < Mahal> | Reiv: while I realise this is not a right-now option, if you are able to save up leave and take a vacation...? |
| 05:08 | < Mahal> | even a staycation |
| 05:09 | <&Reiver> | I'm down to three days of annual leave left for winter, and that's after blowing all my sick leave. |
| 05:10 | <&Reiver> | I got a Talking To by my Manager (boss's boss) over how he understands sickness is uncontrollable, and it's best not to share it around the office, but that when I'm part of such a small team it's important I be more in attendance so I can support my boss in getting projects completed in a timely manner. |
| 05:10 | <&Reiver> | I'm honestly not sure I'm going to make it through winter without hitting the bright red flag of unpaid leave. |
| 05:10 | <&Derakon> | A.k.a. leadership doesn't understand health issues. |
| 05:11 | <&Reiver> | Doesn't care. |
| 05:12 | <&Derakon> | That's also a valid interpretation of the available data, albeit a less charitable one. You'd know better than I. |
| 05:12 | <&Reiver> | Oh, and when I mentioned the working from home (eg, when I'm strictly at home as a safety measure for my wife when she's ill in ways that limit her balance, ie, safety) to help keep the work output up while not able to be in the office itself |
| 05:12 | <&Derakon> | But if leadership doesn't care about you, that's a big problem. |
| 05:12 | <&[R]> | What is your main stressor here BTW? The oversight, the lack of agency, being overworked, or something else? |
| 05:12 | <&Reiver> | Yes, but it's difficult to measure the output of my work, so he'd really rather me in the office or not at all. |
| 05:13 | <&Reiver> | (Everything I do is effectively battling legacy code and/or configurations in an undocumented system. I can spend three days being productive and have naught but a few paragraphs of experimental select statements because the real work is 'comprehending what I'm looking at'.) |
| 05:14 | <&Reiver> | (This apparently translates to "The way I like to track your productivity is how long you spend sitting at your desk". Yey.) |
| 05:14 | <&[R]> | Then you're getting yelled at for being unproductive |
| 05:14 | <&Reiver> | Well, my commute takes an hour a day of open road driving. I don't resent it as such, but it's certainly not 'relax the brain' time. This doesn't help much, but I suspect is partly why WFH is so relaxing. |
| 05:14 | <&Derakon> | Burnout from a bad manager (or bad grandmanager) is super common, by the way. |
| 05:15 | <&Derakon> | Bad leadership is like the #1 reason why techies leave jobs. |
| 05:15 | <&[R]> | Can you commit a bunch of test cases as you're figguring out how the code works? |
| 05:15 | <&Reiver> | My work is on an endless string of projects. I don't mind taht part, I /like/ project work over BAU, but it can get exceptionally vexing when the goal posts keep moving and the solutions steadily degrade as the project moves on and none of them ever actually properly finish ever |
| 05:15 | <&Reiver> | R: It's so cute you think we 'commit' |
| 05:15 | <&[R]> | D: |
| 05:16 | <&Reiver> | My entire work enviroment is SQL Server 2008 Management Studio and the Enterprise software's frontend in Administrator mode. |
| 05:16 | <&Reiver> | Later this year as part of the Glorious Cloud Project we will be removing casual access to the live database, and I'll be restricted to monthly backup restorations that we're spinning up as shadow systems just so we can see what's going on. |
| 05:17 | <&Reiver> | We're not developers, you see. Developers require supporting tools and software and testers and proper solution design and documentation, dearie me, we don't have the resources for that, so we're not developers. |
| 05:18 | <&Reiver> | We just... solve problems. With lines of SQL. And occasionally editing XML. Or the odd patch of HTML. Or CSS. Or T-SQL. Or entire custom ETL XTR scripting servers to load entire folders worth of data in and load it against monthly backups to achieve a psuedo-realtime mirror of data we're not meant to have access to. |
| 05:18 | <&Reiver> | But we're not /developers/, oh no, we couldn't possibly be. :p |
| 05:20 | <&Reiver> | My previous job, meanwhile, was primarily in building reporting systems for projects, which I didn't mind, with a quarter of my time dedicated to working out my personal profitability for the company, which I severely did. |
| 05:20 | <&Derakon> | I'm falling asleep at my desk here, so I need to go to bed. But Reiver, I'm sorry you're going through this, and I hope you find a solution. You have whatever support I can provide, and please do reach out if there's anything you think I can help you with or if you just want to talk about something. |
| 05:20 | <&Derakon> | Meanwhile, good night. |
| 05:20 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:20 | <&Reiver> | No worries, Derakon, and thank you. Rest well! |
| 05:21 | <&Reiver> | But unless you're able to keep an ear out for a mid-grade SQL guru with data analytics and algorathmic educations, I'm not sure there's much to be done. And given your nationality, working remotely would be something of a necessity. ;) |
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| 07:05 | <&jeroud> | Reiver: Quite a lot of my flirting with burnout has been from seldom getting anything actually finished. |
| 07:05 | <&jeroud> | So don't discount that. |
| 07:07 | <&jeroud> | Remote work suits me vastly better than office work, but it has its own challenges. |
| 07:12 | <&jeroud> | I'm currently rereading Michael Lopp's Managing Humans. It's not directly relevant to me (because I'm not a manager), but it's giving me renewed insights into the... "physiology" of organizations and where some of the warning signs might be. |
| 07:29 | <&Reiver> | I hear that |
| 07:30 | <&Reiver> | It's worse in the last leg of a too-long project, for sure. |
| 07:30 | <&Reiver> | Rats-and-mice phases where everything is annoying and nothing feels finished |
| 07:30 | <&Reiver> | But still, my managers Sincere Advice has me firmly in the "Fuck you, I quit" category and then I stare at how dumb this would be but what else do you do? |
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| 11:54 | <&jerith> | Yeah, it's a crappy place to be. |
| 11:58 | <&jerith> | Definitely keep an eye out for not-quite-entry-level data science jobs. You won't have the complete skillset to begin with, but your experience wrangling data gives you a much better leg up than someone with more of a programming background. |
| 12:06 | <&jerith> | You're almost certainly not as pigeonholed as you think. While a complete career reboot is problematic (but sometimes worth doing), many of your current skills will transfer well if you're willing to drop a couple of rungs on the advancement ladder. (And you'll likely reclimb them faster than someone fresh out of the education system.) |
| 12:17 | | * Vorntastic frustrates in general at this sort of shit |
| 12:20 | <&jerith> | Even worse, the next big crash probably isn't all that far off. :-/ |
| 12:51 | <&Reiver> | I've seen the odd data science job |
| 12:51 | <&Reiver> | They tend to be massively developer, preferably-experience-with-video-processing, and very lolnope |
| 12:52 | <&jerith> | "Data science" seems to have turned into a buzzword. :-( |
| 14:17 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd honestly love to get out of tech entirely, I've come to the conclusion that - outside of very small isolated islands - the whole field is fucking toxic. Unfortunately, I've no clear idea where I could go, and anywhere I did would inevitably mean a drastic pay cut we simply can't afford :/ |
| 14:19 | <&[R]> | Toxic because of the managers or toxic because the people attracted to the field have a very special level of social skills? |
| 14:21 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 14:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Managers are significant part of it, certainly |
| 14:46 | | * TheWatcher shrugs, typically finds it hard to define exactly why, because it's really the product of many, many different elements. |
| 14:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Ending up in devops probably hasn't helped my view, I admit. |
| 14:57 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: My view is similar, but perhaps a little more optimistic. |
| 14:58 | <&jerith> | The bits of the tech industry that aren't toxic cesspits are generally the bits that are solving real-world problems. |
| 14:59 | <&jerith> | Or, more accurately, doing the tech work as part of a complete solution. |
| 15:01 | <&Reiver> | I still need out. |
| 15:01 | <&Reiver> | I'll keep thinking on the 'how'. |
| 15:02 | <&Reiver> | Alas, too many developers fancy themselves perfectly capable at SQL/DDL just because they learned the syntax once, so that does limit my options~ |
| 15:02 | <&Reiver> | But I shall give it further thought. |
| 15:04 | <~Vorntastic> | Meanwhile I need *in* and nobody is actually able to help me overcome the six month resume writing time frame that produces nothing redeemable |
| 15:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Obviously we should set up our own development/consultancy company. Something like the 'international grumpy old developers'. iGOD: We write holy good code. |
| 15:19 | <@TheWatcher> | ... I'll get my coat. |
| 15:20 | <&jerith> | Great. I'll be the guy who adds the most value by deleting the most code.~ |
| 15:20 | <&[R]> | I demo'd install for someone today: http://blog.nobl.ca/tmp/install.txt |
| 15:20 | <&jerith> | 404 |
| 15:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Also |
| 15:21 | <&[R]> | Derp one sec |
| 15:21 | <&[R]> | ln'd it |
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| 15:24 | <&jerith> | I've never actually used install. |
| 15:24 | <&[R]> | I've never really liked it, I've seen it in makefiles, but I've always prefered just using cp+chmod for clarity |
| 15:33 | <&[R]> | <tonyb486> Five difficult problems in CS: conditions race, naming thigns, crippling depression, and off-by-one errors. |
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| 15:37 | <&jeroud> | I really need to get rid of Chrome. |
| 15:37 | <&[R]> | But if you do that, how will Google spy on you? |
| 15:38 | <&jeroud> | If I turn on hardware acceleration, it always forces the high power GPU. |
| 15:38 | <&jeroud> | If I turn off hardware acceleration, YouTube maxes out my CPU and still drops frames. |
| 15:42 | < Emmy> | yea, youtube's been bad lately >.< |
| 15:42 | < Emmy> | firefox too |
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| 20:15 | <&McMartin> | Everything that _isn't_ Firefox is secretly Chrome :/ |
| 20:21 | <@gnolam> | And even the spinoffs spy on you, IIRC. |
| 20:24 | <&jerith> | Welcome to the 21st century. Everyone's economy is fundamentally based on surveillance. |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | I wonder what the market would be for a web browser that you paid actual money for and then did not actually phone home to anyone |
| 20:25 | <&McMartin> | I'm guessing it would not be sustainable |
| 20:26 | <&jerith> | Firefox claims to not spy on you, but does transmit an awful lot of telemetry by default. |
| 20:27 | <&McMartin> | If telemetry's a problem, you are completely screwed |
| 20:29 | <&jerith> | Mozilla's business model isn't built on advertising, at least. |
| 20:38 | <@gnolam> | You can turn that off. |
| 20:38 | <&jerith> | Yup. And I turn some of it off. |
| 20:39 | <@gnolam> | But I have no idea why e.g. Chromium still spies on you for Google. |
| 20:39 | <&jerith> | I don't mind sending crash reports, and some of the "telemetry" is required for useful services. |
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| 20:43 | | * jerith looks for [1]McMartin's footnote. |
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| 21:03 | <@celticminstrel> | And Chrome and Firefox are equally terrible. |
| 21:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, almost equally. |
| 21:04 | <@celticminstrel> | (Isn't there one other browser that's not Chrome? Konqueror or something? Also what happened to Opera?) |
| 21:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Opera is now reskinned chromium |
| 21:06 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 21:07 | <&[R]> | Vivaldi too right? |
| 21:07 | <@celticminstrel> | I think so, yeah. |
| 21:07 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, Vivaldi's probably a bit more than just a reskin tho. |
| 21:07 | | mode/#code [+ao McMartin McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 21:07 | <@celticminstrel> | But I think it's based on the same underlying engine, at least. |
| 21:07 | <&[R]> | Edge is going to use the webkit rendering engine right? |
| 21:07 | <@celticminstrel> | But it still doesn't handle huge numbers of tabs in a sane way. |
| 21:08 | <&[R]> | <celticminstrel> But I think it's based on the same underlying engine, at least. <-- which engine? JS or rendering? |
| 21:08 | <@celticminstrel> | Only Firefox does that. |
| 21:08 | <@celticminstrel> | [R]: I was thinking rendering there. |
| 21:08 | <&[R]> | I think Firefox is the only one NOT using webkit now |
| 21:08 | <@celticminstrel> | So the KDE browser is also using webkit? |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | Yep. Edge was the last to fall. |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | Konqueror was using Webkit before Chrome forked it, IIRC. |
| 21:09 | <@celticminstrel> | I see. |
| 21:09 | <&[R]> | Also FYI: webkit *does* include a JS engine, but Chrome uses V8 instead, but still uses webkit for rendering, which makes this a little confusing. |
| 21:09 | <@celticminstrel> | WebKit was originally Apple's thing, right? |
| 21:09 | <&[R]> | I tihnk so? |
| 21:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Which makes it kinda amusing that Edge adopted it. |
| 21:10 | <@celticminstrel> | But anyway, is there something wrong with WebKit specifically? |
| 21:11 | <&[R]> | No, but uhh stagnation is kind of a MAJOR past issue with web-browsers |
| 21:11 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 21:11 | <&[R]> | Remember IE6? |
| 21:11 | <@Tamber> | Everybody loves a bit of monoculture~ |
| 21:11 | <&jerith> | A single implementation that is a de facto monopoly is *always* bad news. |
| 21:11 | <@celticminstrel> | I pretty much never used Internet Explorer even way back when. |
| 21:11 | <&[R]> | And how *everything* only worked in IE6 because of ActiveX? |
| 21:11 | <@celticminstrel> | I was using Netscape. |
| 21:11 | <&[R]> | And it took *forever* to break that? |
| 21:12 | <@celticminstrel> | I somehow never experienced that. |
| 21:12 | <&[R]> | For general web browsing it wasn't a major issue |
| 21:12 | <@celticminstrel> | When was this exactly |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | The entire aughts |
| 21:13 | <&[R]> | But all commercial shit needed it, thus everyone ran IE6 rather than have two web-browsers, and while FF (and eventually Chrome) were pushing hard for the new standards, IE6 was just making that a losing prospect |
| 21:13 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm, I think I had dial-up for about the first half of that period so wasn't online much... |
| 21:13 | <&[R]> | Chrome I think came about specifically to say "Fuck you MS. We NEED the web to start evolving" |
| 21:14 | <@celticminstrel> | (Actually I also technically had dial-up before that, but with an always-on dedicated line, so it didn't really feel like dial-up. >_> ) |
| 21:14 | <&[R]> | Hell, IE7 had major adoption issues because it broke some of the shit (ActiveX) that IE6 allowed |
| 21:14 | <&jerith> | The real problem was that everything needed to support IE6, because it dominated the market, and thus the entire web was stuck in the 90s. |
| 21:15 | <@celticminstrel> | (I do agree with jerith about monopolies.) |
| 21:17 | <@celticminstrel> | I'd say "someone should write a new browser more or less from scratch", but sadly that's a enormously massive undertaking (and that's probably an understatement) so I'm not gonna get my hopes up.+ |
| 21:17 | | * McMartin gets his 8-bit SHA256 implementation down to 350ms per block. |
| 21:17 | <&[R]> | Remember the bit where it was pointed out that a web-browser has at least two engines? |
| 21:17 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah? |
| 21:17 | <&[R]> | That's a massive barrier to entry |
| 21:18 | <&jerith> | celticminstrel: Mozilla is basically doing that at the moment. |
| 21:18 | <@celticminstrel> | You mean because a newcomer would have to write a whole new rendering engine and a whole new scripting engine? |
| 21:18 | <@celticminstrel> | jerith: Huhwhat? |
| 21:19 | <&[R]> | That's why pre-existing stuff is being used, and given there's now two rendering engines in the space, and one it not designed to be standalone and the other is designed to be a component, it makes sense why the market is the way it is |
| 21:19 | <&jerith> | They're incrementally replacing bits of Firefox with new bits written in Rust. |
| 21:19 | <&[R]> | <celticminstrel> You mean because a newcomer would have to write a whole new rendering engine and a whole new scripting engine? <-- yeah |
| 21:19 | <@celticminstrel> | Then there's the networking layer... |
| 21:20 | <&[R]> | Scripting you do have a few options, V8 (Chrome), Webkit, spidermonkey (Mozilla), and whatever MS' current solution is. |
| 21:20 | <@celticminstrel> | And the actual application UI... |
| 21:20 | <&jerith> | Those are the easy bits. |
| 21:20 | <&[R]> | However, given MS is MS, and how absolutely shitty JScript was, I wouldn't even consider their option to be a real option. |
| 21:21 | <&jerith> | JS and rendering are the hard bits. |
| 21:21 | <@celticminstrel> | Fair enough. |
| 21:21 | <&jerith> | Webkit is the rendering bit. |
| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | IE's JS engine became acceptable somewhere around IE9/late IE8, and Edge's was always fine |
| 21:22 | <&[R]> | <jerith> Webkit is the rendering bit. <-- It's also got a JS engine |
| 21:23 | <&McMartin> | In fact, ISTR that there were issues with IE8 because most websites that broke their websites for IE6 compatibility just checked for IE and did not check for version, so IE8's own standards compliance broke most of the pages it tried to render because the pages would obligingly break themselves. |
| 21:23 | <&[R]> | Webkit's JS engine is what Safari uses |
| 21:28 | | * McMartin checks. "Looks like when it has JS enabled, elinks uses spidermonkey." |
| 21:29 | <&[R]> | IIRC spidermonkey is in C |
| 21:29 | <&[R]> | V8 is C++ |
| 21:29 | <&[R]> | MongoDB also uses spidermonkey FYI |
| 21:34 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 23:00 | | Lamb3_1 [Dawg@Nightstar-52ic2g.wechall.net] has joined #code |
| 23:11 | | Emmy [Emmy@Nightstar-9p7hb1.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:22 | | Lamb3_1 [Dawg@Nightstar-52ic2g.wechall.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:23 | | * McMartin finishes reading through the relevant sections of the encryption export restrictions and is now pretty sure he doesn't need to notify the NSA about his dumb C64 project. |
| 23:31 | <&McMartin> | (Data integrity is a specifically excluded category) |
| 23:39 | <@TheWatcher> | It's okay, they'd probably have contacted you by now, if you did need to~ |
| 23:49 | <&McMartin> | IIRC there's actually case law that says that the fact that they're spying on you is not an excuse for not filing the relevant paperwork |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | And it would be the Department of Commerce that would be getting huffy about it |
| 23:58 | | [1]McMartin [McMartin@Nightstar-rpcdbf.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| --- Log closed Mon Apr 22 00:00:13 2019 |