| --- Log opened Thu Dec 13 00:00:02 2018 |
| 00:03 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 00:05 | <@TheWatcher> | ErikMesoy: is that ISO weeks, or US weeks? or US Broadcast weeks? |
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| 00:24 | <&[R]> | <ErikMesoy> We drew large grids and diagrams on the whiteboard to track the possible cases. <-- all 14 of them? |
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| 01:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: semi-recently I read an article about a project that involved putting a small computer (rpi?) inside a cartridge for some vintage console, but hooking up all the IO to the actual cart pins so you could plug it into the actual console and it would pretend to be a game (with the actual "game" code actually copying framebuffer data from "ROM" or similar) |
| 01:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | However, I can't remember what console it was, who did it, or where it was written up, and it's impossible to google for because of all the projects that involve using vintage carts as computer cases |
| 01:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Do you have any idea what I'm talking about here or where to find it? |
| 01:59 | <&[R]> | FCC wants to kill innovation on the internet: https://news.slashdot.org/story/18/12/12/2355242/fcc-panel-wants-to-tax-internet-using-businesses-give-the-money-to-isps |
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| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: What you describe is something that is done with the "Melody Cartridge" for the Atari 2600, but it is far from alone |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | In fact, you can make a reasonable case that most mid- to late-era SNES games did this with their on-cart coprocessors |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | (Most flashcarts for systems old enough to not have onboard operating systems boil down to doing this as well) |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: not quite the same thing |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | This was not a reprogrammable cart, it was a complete computer system that used the console as, basically, an IO hub and video passthrough |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | Right, that's what Melody-cart based games essentially do, with a generous interpretation of 'video passthrough'. |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | And it was a recent, hobbyist, non-commercial project |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 02:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | here by "video passthrough" I mean "the system inside the cart writes raw frame data to the ROM data pins and the code running on the console proper translates that into electron gun instructions" |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | I guess this was commercial after all |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1107 |
| 02:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | And ISTR quite a lot of time and oscilloscope wrangling devoted to actually getting that part right |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, what you describe sounds a lot like "register stuffing" where the on-console code is just COPY (CONSTANT) (CHIP CONTROL REGISTER) over and over and over and over because it's being synthesized by the CPU. |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | So I don't know what particular thing that would be because it could be all kinds of things. |
| 02:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Right. |
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| 07:18 | <@ErikMesoy> | TheWatcher: that's the problem :P they're supposed to be ISO weeks |
| 07:35 | <&Reiver> | McMartin: That was incredibly wonderful and heartening |
| 07:35 | <&Reiver> | And then I read the update on the next page and am full of The Sad. |
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| 12:44 | <&[R]> | Sanity check: If I wanted to store all 32bit numbers in their binary representation (IE: they take up 4 bytes), it would take up 2^32 * 2^2 bytes? Then a kilobyte is 1/2^10th of that, one megabyte is 1/2^10th of a kilobyte, one gigabyte is 1/2^10th of a megabyte. So it would be (2^32 * 2^2)/(2^10 * 2^10 * 2^10) gigabytes which is (2^34)/(2^30) or 2^4 gigabytes? |
| 13:49 | <~Vorntastic> | 16 gigs yes |
| 13:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Your middle sentence is backwards (1GB is 2^10 MB, not 1/2^10ths of one) but the conclusion is correct. |
| 13:53 | <&[R]> | Right yeah |
| 13:54 | <&[R]> | I just woke up when I was working that out, thanks |
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| 15:44 | | * ToxicFrog stares at this function for a moment |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think for this to actually work, I would need to port (defmacro) to zsh. |
| 15:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm not 100% sure that this is a good idea. |
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| 15:46 | <&[R]> | How different is zsh scripting from bash scripting? |
| 15:46 | <&[R]> | Does it have better string operations? |
| 15:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's very similar. It has more string/array/map operations and variable expansion operations built in (but the syntax is just as awful and opaque as in bash). It makes it slightly harder to shoot yourself in the foot, e.g. $foo and "$foo" are equivalent and you have to explicitly ask for what in bash would be the unquoted behaviour. |
| 15:49 | <&[R]> | Ohh |
| 15:49 | <&[R]> | That sounds nice at least |
| 15:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | In general, I would describe it as an overall better version of bash scripting, with more conveniences and fewer land mines, but still fundamentally the same concepts. So if you're looking for Like Bash But Better this is exactly what you're looking for, and if the idea of bash repulses you and you want Shell Scripting But Not Bash it is definitely not what you want. |
| 15:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | (this also means that the vast majority of bash scripts will run in zsh without modification) |
| 15:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Sadly it still doesn't have closures or macros~ |
| 15:53 | <&[R]> | Yeah, I'm finding myself doing a ton of bash scripting lately, I could use another language, but I do have to shell-out a ton, and really shell scripts are the only languages that don't make that painfully tedius |
| 15:53 | <&[R]> | I've actually been tempted to write my own shell scripting language |
| 15:53 | <&[R]> | D: |
| 15:55 | <@TheWatcher> | I believe that's one of the signs of madness~ |
| 15:55 | <&[R]> | Actually, no |
| 15:56 | <&[R]> | There is another language that doesn't make shelling-out painful |
| 15:56 | <&[R]> | It's called make |
| 15:56 | <&[R]> | ... actually one of my script-sets would be better as a makefile |
| 15:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | perl also makes it pretty easy |
| 15:58 | <&[R]> | I've tried to learn perl a few times |
| 15:58 | <&[R]> | I have a rather intense loathing of its documentation |
| 15:59 | <&[R]> | Like *super* basic thing, probably even its core functionality, all I wanted to know was what the variables a regex operation touches are. |
| 16:00 | <&[R]> | They had the operators defined, they mentioned the side-effect of filling those variables, but they didn't say what variables specifically they were |
| 16:04 | | * ToxicFrog solves the original problem using ${funcstack[1]} |
| 16:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've generally been pretty happy with zsh's documentation; it's more split up than bash's, but in practice this usually makes it *easier* to use because I don't have to flip through hundreds of irrelevancies every time I want to look up what `setopt` does, for example./ |
| 16:05 | <&[R]> | Bash's manpage is both awesome and intensely frustrating, yeah |
| 16:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and if you really crave the bash experience you can enjoy all 22,000 lines of `man zshall`) |
| 16:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, if you're using it interactively and not just for scripting, typing a command and pressing alt-H brings up the man page for it while leaving the rest of the command line intact. |
| 16:07 | <&[R]> | zshall or zshell? |
| 16:07 | <&[R]> | Coolio |
| 16:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | "zshall", i.e. "zsh all", all the zsh man pages concatenated. |
| 16:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | All the man pages are named "zsh$TOPIC", with "man zsh" giving you the table of contents and invokation instructions. |
| 16:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g. zshbuiltins, zshoptions, zshtcpsys |
| 16:09 | <&[R]> | Nice, yeah, I do prefer "all one page" by default, but sometimes it's nice to just be able to jump to a topic |
| 16:10 | <&[R]> | info is absolutely infuriating in that regard. Since scroll is both scroll and "next page" so if I'm not attentive I'll randomly be on another page entirely which is absolutely confusing. And AFAICT the only way to actually configure info permenantly is via an alias. |
| 16:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I have a very low opinion of info. |
| 16:14 | <&[R]> | Unfortunately there aren't other options than the various implimentations of man and GNU info :/ |
| 16:15 | <&[R]> | And having to whatis before man is annoying |
| 16:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Why do you need to whatis first? |
| 16:18 | <&[R]> | TCL |
| 16:18 | <&[R]> | It has man pages for everything, and they come up first |
| 16:19 | <&[R]> | (TCL isn't the only one that does this) |
| 16:19 | <&[R]> | I `man fopen` or something, get TCL's documentation, when I wanted C |
| 16:20 | <&[R]> | Or sometimes I want a specific manpage, but I don't want to guess the number |
| 16:20 | | * [R] has also been tempted to write a new man |
| 16:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | `man 3 fopen` should get you the C version in preference to the TCL version |
| 16:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, at least some versions of man have a disambiguator built in |
| 16:22 | <&[R]> | Yeah, but sometimes it's 2 instead of 3 |
| 16:22 | <&[R]> | I don't really want to think to hard when I'm trying to look up a reference |
| 16:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | As in, you do `man printf` and it goes "did you mean printf(1) -- shell builtin, printf(3) -- C standard library, printf(3p) -- POSIX standard, or printf(3tcl) -- TCL standard library?" |
| 16:23 | <&[R]> | That'd actually be nice |
| 16:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | The one on SUSE does this out of the box, I'm not sure how to enable it for other distros |
| 16:24 | <&[R]> | `man --version` tell you what that is? |
| 16:25 | <&[R]> | Hmm, mandb just says "man" |
| 16:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | man 2.7.6 |
| 16:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | But on my work machine it's man 2.7.6.1 and it doesn't do this, so this may be a SUSE-specific patch rather than something in man proper |
| 16:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | It shouldn't be hard to replicate with a shell function, though. |
| 16:26 | | * ToxicFrog tinkers |
| 16:26 | <&[R]> | Yeah |
| 16:26 | <&[R]> | Just whatis first, then if the result is only 1, go to man directly, if more, prompt for choice, if zero error out |
| 16:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah |
| 16:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: https://gist.github.com/ToxicFrog/23fb9db135f90c0892b80b6d765cd31b |
| 16:33 | <&[R]> | I was about to ask why you didn't use `select` |
| 16:34 | <&[R]> | Then I tried to figgure out how that'd be cleaner |
| 16:34 | <&[R]> | You'd have to muck with IFS I guess |
| 16:35 | <&[R]> | Eitherway, that's cool, thank you |
| 16:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, and also select automatically numbers its entries |
| 16:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | So in that example, printf(1) would be 1 and printf(3) would be 2 |
| 16:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is not great, I'd rather type the actual section number (especially since that will stay the same even if new man pages are added/removed) |
| 16:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | You're welcome! |
| 16:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | And it probably could be cleaned up at least a bit, but I just quickly hammered this together. |
| 16:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and now I'm adding it to ~/.zsh.d/ so that I get this feature on non-SUSE machines) |
| 16:37 | <&[R]> | Heh |
| 16:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I'm looking at "man man" now and I don't think I've ever seen sections 0 or 9 used in practice) |
| 16:39 | <&[R]> | Nor have I |
| 16:39 | <&[R]> | $ ls /usr/share/man/man0/ | wc -l |
| 16:39 | <&[R]> | 82 |
| 16:39 | <&[R]> | Hmm |
| 16:40 | <&[R]> | $ ls /usr/share/man/man9/ | wc -l |
| 16:40 | <&[R]> | ls: cannot access '/usr/share/man/man9/': No such file or directory |
| 16:40 | <&[R]> | 0 |
| 16:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | section 9 is kernal API documentation, and it looks like on Debian at least these have their own package (since they're quite large and also kernel-version-specific) |
| 16:41 | <&[R]> | Hmm |
| 16:41 | | dump-trump-2020 [dump@Nightstar-5ejmfe.us.northamericancoax.com] has joined #code |
| 16:41 | < dump-trump-2020> | https://youtu.be/1gfDwEDPb6U |
| 16:41 | < dump-trump-2020> | How Trump got Trolled into a Televised Tantrum over a border wall |
| 16:41 | < dump-trump-2020> | poxifide Vornicus simon_ macdjord|slep himi crystalclaw Mahal Emmy tripflag abudhabi Vorntastic iospace Pi JustBob TheWatcher ErikMesoy Derakon[AFK] Reiv McMartin Degi ToxicFrog Syloq VirusJTG Kizor [R] PinkFreud Reiver Carstol-Reg jerith Attilla Tamber celmin|away jeroud Alek Kindamoody|afk gnolam |
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| 16:41 | <&[R]> | Fucking hell |
| 16:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah, on my SUSE machine man0 does contain header pages |
| 16:42 | <~Vornicus> | I guess that's the first one that looks like an actual bot said it |
| 16:42 | <&[R]> | So my `man man` explains section 9, but not 0... yet I have pages in 0 but not 9... |
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| 16:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | specifically, stdio(3) contains the table of contents for <stdio.h> as implemented in glibc, and stdio(0p) is what POSIX says about <stdio.h> |
| 16:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | I would have expected those to be 0 and 0p, but... |
| 16:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: "man man" for me says that man0 is header files. |
| 16:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | In practice header file documentation mostly seems to end up in 3 alongside the individual function documentation. |
| 16:43 | <&[R]> | OMFG section 0 is amazing |
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| 16:44 | <&[R]> | Is there a manpage that explains the base C-types? The preprocessor directives? |
| 16:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | If there was I'd expect it to be c(7) or similar, but at least on my system there's no such page. |
| 16:52 | <&[R]> | Nor mine |
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| 17:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | What are you finding in 0 that's not in 3? |
| 17:07 | <&[R]> | Stuff that isn't functions |
| 17:08 | <&[R]> | Also a good answer to "why did this program include this header?" |
| 17:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah, I see, like stdint.h |
| 17:13 | <&[R]> | size_t Unsigned integer type of the result of the sizeof operator. |
| 17:13 | <&[R]> | That... was less helpful than I had hoped |
| 17:14 | <&[R]> | size_t Used for sizes of objects. |
| 17:14 | <&[R]> | ssize_t Used for a count of bytes or an error indication. |
| 17:14 | <&[R]> | Consistiency! |
| 17:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that's not great |
| 17:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | size_t is "the size of something", i.e. the sort of things sizeof() returns (but also file sizes and the like) |
| 17:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | ssize_t is "signed size_t" and is basically used where you want a size_t but you also want to be able to return -1 to indicate error |
| 17:23 | <&[R]> | Yeah, I remember someone arguing about using size_t instead of int or something similar and I didn't have the ability to find out what size_t was meant for at the time :/ |
| 19:21 | <&McMartin> | ssize_t in days of yore would also be handy because ptr_diff_t was, I think, a later addition. |
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| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | https://prog21.dadgum.com/116.html "Things that Turbo Pascal is Smaller Than" |
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| --- Log closed Fri Dec 14 00:00:04 2018 |