| --- Log opened Wed Aug 15 00:00:18 2018 |
| 00:51 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-v1qb0r.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 01:28 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:50 | <&[R]> | <Mahal> if you're on power it shouldn't happen. <-- it did |
| 02:01 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 02:01 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 02:07 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:39 | <&[R]> | And now it's doing an update, which means it will forget a random subselection of settings |
| 02:40 | <&[R]> | (I have no clue how that was ever considered acceptable) |
| 03:56 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-hltc4r.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 04:32 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-v1qb0r.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 06:46 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sjaki9.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 06:46 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 07:10 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-1drtbs.anu.edu.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:11 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sjaki9.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 07:12 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-6br85t.irccloud.com] has joined #code |
| 07:12 | | mode/#code [+qo Vorntastic Vorntastic] by ChanServ |
| 07:18 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sjaki9.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 07:18 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 07:23 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sjaki9.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:04 | | mac is now known as macdjord|slep |
| 09:04 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 09:04 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 09:32 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 10:31 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 11:20 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-m4ietf.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #code |
| 12:35 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sjaki9.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 12:36 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 13:08 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sjaki9.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 13:59 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 14:44 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-m4ietf.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 16:00 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 16:00 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 17:32 | | Vorntastic [uid293981@Nightstar-6br85t.irccloud.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] |
| 17:55 | <&[R]> | Dear MS: On the edition of Windows that you make all computers that an SMB would purchase have, could you kindly add an option entiled "this is a fucking work computer, don't reboot it without the user's permission because it takes a fucking hour+ to install updates and pisses of my clients." I belive the option is fairly self-documenting in it's purpose. Thank you. |
| 17:56 | <&[R]> | PS: when logining in after a reboot, an option titled "don't try restart half my applications because you pick all of the ones that do heavy disk I/O on start-up and it makes logining in take another 40 minutes" I believe it's purpose is equally clear |
| 17:57 | <&[R]> | Thanks. Until then I'll be spending time trying to move to Linux ASAP. |
| 17:59 | | mode/#code [-M] by abudhabi |
| 17:59 | <@abudhabi> | Test. |
| 17:59 | <&[R]> | <abudhabi> Test. <-- Test. |
| 18:00 | <@abudhabi> | [R]: I would just suggest never rebooting without the user's permission at all. Ever. |
| 18:00 | <&[R]> | So would I |
| 18:00 | <&[R]> | But it's MS. They do everything half-asses |
| 18:00 | <&[R]> | assed* |
| 18:06 | <&[R]> | I honestly couldn't expect them to do something properly. Especially one in the UX area. |
| 18:08 | <@TheWatcher> | [R]: I'm using win10 pro, and while that option isn't obvious, you can do it with group policies |
| 18:08 | <@TheWatcher> | I believe it doesn't work on anything but pro, though |
| 18:09 | <&[R]> | Right |
| 18:11 | <&[R]> | Hence my specification about the Windows version on consumer laptops |
| 18:11 | <&[R]> | Which is Home |
| 18:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah. For Home, Microsoft assumes the user is either a drooling moron or a technophobe, and has decided what's best for them |
| 18:13 | <&[R]> | Conveniently forgetting all the SMBs that won't upgrade to Pro or whatever because there's no reason, the comnputer alread has Windows |
| 19:30 | <&McMartin> | To be fair, I'm pretty good at this stuff |
| 19:30 | <&McMartin> | And group policies tend to make me run screaming |
| 19:30 | <&McMartin> | That's a different skill they didn't teach us developers. >_> |
| 19:31 | <&McMartin> | (And oh god our entry point is terrifying. This is clearly a technology that *only8 the IT guys were supposed to use, through MS interfaces, once you were outside of MS itself) |
| 20:11 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-m4ietf.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #code |
| 20:45 | < Mahal> | So, [R], would you prefer that your SMB laptops never got patched, circa every OS before WIn10 |
| 20:45 | < Mahal> | or that Microsoft at least made a token attempt to keep their users more secure in the biggest consumer market in the world? |
| 20:45 | < Mahal> | and, hey, if you want business class features, pay for the business class OS. |
| 20:45 | < Mahal> | I'm not a Microsoft fangirl or apologist |
| 20:45 | < Mahal> | but given the alternative I don't feel like this is a terrible one. |
| 20:53 | <&[R]> | I'd like more control over how the updates happen, the forced updates are BS and causing problems. I'd bitch a TON less if like every other OS they could do updates while the computer is usable. |
| 20:53 | < Mahal> | If you want control - pay for corporate control. |
| 20:53 | <&[R]> | Basically they chose every user-hostile option in the name of security. |
| 20:53 | < Mahal> | You can tune the reboots a little, and put them off till hours that suit you even on the home OS versions. |
| 20:54 | < Mahal> | I have one! |
| 20:54 | < Mahal> | Yeah, nah, sorry, that's not user hostility. |
| 20:54 | <&[R]> | When the machine is randomly unusable for long periods of billable time, that's hostiltiy |
| 20:55 | < Mahal> | then set the active hours on the device so it doesn't do updates then! |
| 20:55 | < Mahal> | and if you don't have the competency to change those settings, *don't bitch about it* |
| 20:55 | <&[R]> | Or you know, they could make it so you can just trivially upgrade to pro from a home-installed device |
| 20:55 | <&[R]> | But they don't |
| 20:55 | < Mahal> | Select the Start button, then select Settings > Update & security > Activation. |
| 20:55 | < Mahal> | Select Change product key, and then enter the 25-character Windows 10 Pro product key. |
| 20:55 | < Mahal> | Select Next to start the upgrade to Windows 10 Pro. |
| 20:57 | <&[R]> | Which costs the full cost of a new windows license when you're already getting a home one |
| 20:57 | < Mahal> | Then don't buy a Home one in the first place? |
| 20:57 | <&[R]> | Also lolwut at the compentency thing |
| 20:57 | < Mahal> | Look, I sympathise with your point, honestly. |
| 20:57 | < Mahal> | I do |
| 20:57 | <&[R]> | I'm complaining in the context of SMB |
| 20:57 | < Mahal> | but the actual probllem here is SMB's DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE DOING |
| 20:58 | < Mahal> | and buy the wrong products, and don't want to pay for support |
| 20:58 | < Mahal> | all of which I get |
| 20:58 | < Mahal> | and as a result of that, you have the option of "unpatched unsecure shit that actually causes issues for everyone else" |
| 20:58 | <&[R]> | The people 1) most affected by this because they don't have the staff for it 2) the least likely to see any need to spring for pro |
| 20:58 | < Mahal> | or "well, it sucks to be you" |
| 20:58 | < Mahal> | "accept your updates, get on with it" |
| 20:59 | < Mahal> | I bought a Pro license for my personal laptop because I use it for work purposes as well as personal ones. |
| 21:01 | < Mahal> | You obviously *do* understand what you're doing, so ... buy pro licenses? explain to your clients what the difference between consumer and pro editions are? |
| 21:01 | < Mahal> | Or, sure, switch to Ubuntu, but that's not a feasible option for a *large chunk* of smb's |
| 21:01 | < Mahal> | (And potentially leaves them with unwarrantied devices depending on where they purchased them!) |
| 21:08 | <&[R]> | Whatever. An update should not cause significantly more downtime than a normal reboot |
| 21:09 | < Mahal> | and on a managed OS they don't -shrug- they'll install in the background and only prompt for reboots as required. |
| 21:09 | < Mahal> | (except for major version upgrades where a significant portion of the OS is changing, e.g. 1709 to 1803 was quite lengthy) |
| 21:38 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 21:39 | | Vornicus [Vorn@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | For the record Ubuntu 16.04 to 18.04 was eight hours |
| 23:06 | <&[R]> | But you could actually use your system for that time |
| 23:07 | <&[R]> | I don't care if an update takes a day or two to do, if the system is still usable during that time. |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | Oh. No |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | This was the "please have all applications closed during the upgrade" |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | part |
| 23:08 | <&[R]> | WTF |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | the download part was merely the amount of time it takes to download 2GB, which even on my shitty internet wasn't long |
| 23:08 | <&[R]> | Last I used Ubuntu you didn't need to worry about that shit |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, they apparently noticed that people must have really missed the old console mode dialog boxes that stopped everything |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | ... and worse, you couldn't see them |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | so now there are like five, but they're visible and GNOME-based. |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | and roughly evenly spaced. -_- |
| 23:09 | <&[R]> | ... because that's the proper solution to that problem... |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, even if you ignore that |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | The "OK, we're removing these 500 packages now" was measured in hours. |
| 23:09 | <&[R]> | You know, instead of NOT having console programs start during package maintenance scripts |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | They fixed it1 |
| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | They weren't console programs |
| 23:10 | <&[R]> | ? |
| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | This was dist-upgrade requiring you to hit NEXT at each step, more or less. |
| 23:10 | <&[R]> | I've never seen something like that |
| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | Hours apart, because apt-get is really, really slow, at least when run on spinning rust |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, this was also paired with explicit messaging to not be running any applications during the upgrade process |
| 23:11 | <&[R]> | All of my Linux update experience has been "I'm updating everything. ... Okay, I'm done now. You should reboot." And the system was usable during that process |
| 23:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Wait, reboot? |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, dist-upgrades are... more dramatic. |
| 23:13 | | * TheWatcher only ever does that when upgrading the kernel, otherwise runs lib_users to see which processes have old libs loaded and restarts them >.> |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | And yes, for some reason Fedora now reboots on every update ever if you go through the graphical installer |
| 23:13 | < Mahal> | TheWatcher: you are a power user, as opposed to a normal person :P |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | As opposed to sudo dnf upgrade which Just Upgrades Stuff And Is Done. |
| 23:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Mahal: fair |
| 23:14 | <&[R]> | dnf is which distro? |
| 23:14 | <&[R]> | Oh Fedora |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | So that might be GNOME 3 generally and not Fedora specifically. |
| 23:15 | < Mahal> | (OSX also does mandatory updates and reboots these days, with varying time factors required. I'd imagine that's the second heaviest consumer OS these days.) |
| 23:16 | < Mahal> | (As does iOS in the mobile space. Can't speak for ANdroid as I don't use it and I understand some of that relies on the carrier) |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | I mean, most of the time Windows updates do not require a reboot either, and the experience of that is basically that autoupdates that do not require a reboot didn't happen, so 100% of updates require reboots, froth, rage |
| 23:16 | < Mahal> | ^ |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Also "I can't update Xcode while iTunes is running, press Continue to force-quit iTunes" |
| 23:17 | | * Mahal nods |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | Which I haven't seen on Windows in years and years, despite Windows having non-advisory file locking and OSX not |
| 23:21 | < Mahal> | Office will usually ask you to close all Office products while updating itself, but that might be a different case. |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah, I'm not counting the case where the file *being replaced* must be closed. |
| 23:22 | <&[R]> | That's because Windows does manditory file-locking |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | Because yes, Windows will still want that. |
| 23:22 | <&[R]> | You can't update a bindary that's in use. |
| 23:22 | <&McMartin> | You can |
| 23:23 | <&[R]> | But no-one does. |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | the part you're objecting to is that when a file is deleted or replaced, the other processes that have that file open will notice |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | (And indeed that will only happen if everyone who opened it permitted concurrent modification by others) |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | the part I was objecting to was when an unrelated application must be closed to update you |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | This is also related to the most succinct version of Unix Brain Damage as experienced by everyone who isn't an old Unix Hand |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | which is that everything sucks because you can't arrange shared memory by having two processes open the same file, followed by deleting that file |
| 23:25 | <&[R]> | If you're updating office, you'd need all of office closed because they're all getting updated. |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | And obviously any system that doesn't permit this exact protocol to have that exact result must be literally insane and obviously of reprehensibly terrible design |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | But I think these days Linux and BSD both have actual APIs intended to provide shared memory control, so this comes up less |
| 23:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep, they do |
| 23:26 | <&[R]> | Linux has 7 or so now |
| 23:27 | <&[R]> | BBL, still working |
| 23:40 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-1drtbs.anu.edu.au] has joined #code |
| 23:40 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 23:57 | | * Mahal chortles |
| 23:57 | < Mahal> | https://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/97hf4j/cthulhu_debugging/e489sct/ |
| --- Log closed Thu Aug 16 00:00:19 2018 |