| --- Log opened Wed Jun 06 00:00:55 2018 |
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| 01:03 | | * McMartin does horrific battle with the traditional BSD sockets API. |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | Also, brb |
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| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | z00m |
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| 18:18 | <&[R]> | https://johansen.software/github-xp/ |
| 18:19 | <@Tamber> | ha, ouch. |
| 18:20 | <&McMartin> | Can somebody briefly explain to me what exactly the *actual* threat model is people are panicking about? |
| 18:21 | <&McMartin> | Because it kind of looks like a combination of "cooties" and "thinks git works exactly like svn but without svn cooties" from here. |
| 18:22 | <@Tamber> | The most reasonable complaint I've seen is that MS seems to like taking things that work, and then stabbing them full of pins until they're just painful to use. |
| 18:23 | <@Tamber> | But, yeah, there's a lot of wailing along the lines of your latter point, there. |
| 18:23 | <@Tamber> | (...plus the MS cooties.) |
| 18:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, there's that, plus the fact that some people were using private repos on github for things they don't want Microsoft to see (whether that's because of paranoia or not...), and now they essentially have free access to those private repos |
| 18:24 | <@Tamber> | Also, Github's thing is fairly clean and uncluttered UIs, and Microsoft... er... |
| 18:25 | | * McMartin shrugs |
| 18:25 | <@TheWatcher> | I think that skype has not filled people with enthusiasm~ |
| 18:25 | | * Tamber likewise. |
| 18:25 | <@Tamber> | Well, no. |
| 18:25 | <@Tamber> | It was painful before, then they rammed it full of pins... well, adverts. |
| 18:25 | <&McMartin> | VSCode was pretty good the last time I looked at it, albeit solving problems I don't have. |
| 18:25 | <@TheWatcher> | Haven't looked, myself, and if I don't want a repo to be public I host the damned thing myself, so *shrug* |
| 18:26 | <@Tamber> | yeah. |
| 18:26 | <@TheWatcher> | I can appreciate the worries from those that decided not to do the latter, even if I consider it short-sighted and naive |
| 18:26 | <@Tamber> | Usual complaints about The Clown apply. |
| 18:26 | <&McMartin> | If you've got offsite backups and are not independently wealthy, you're kind of trusting in the integrity of their datacenter staff, whoever they are. |
| 18:27 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I just answered that Right There. |
| 18:28 | <&McMartin> | Because even when it isn't Other People's Computers, it's Your Computers Where Only Other People Get Physical Access To It |
| 18:28 | <&McMartin> | And if you're operating at that level of paranoia, why are you trusting them |
| 18:28 | <@Tamber> | yeah. |
| 18:29 | <&McMartin> | And MS datacenters do not, AIUI, have any particularly bad reputation for industrial espionage, because that would kind of fuck up the enterprise revenue flows |
| 18:30 | <&McMartin> | And MS was overwhelmingly dominant back when it *was* overwhelmingly dominant because they were the only people that gave even the tiniest of shits about microcomputers in the enterprise space. Linux was still in the "how to do more with less" stage and Apple had intentionally abandoned that market. |
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| 18:32 | <@Tamber> | Only using github for hobby stuff, and not using all the wiki/bug tracker/etc stuff, my concern is that the UI will get splattered with bullshit. But other than that, meh. |
| 18:33 | <&McMartin> | Okay |
| 18:33 | <@TheWatcher> | yeah, I've been usign the issue tracker for some stuff, but *shrug* |
| 18:33 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah, also I can remember more than three years in the past. |
| 18:33 | <&McMartin> | So my bar for "hosting service misbehavior" is "surreptitiously adds malware to your released installers" |
| 18:33 | <&McMartin> | Because that is what Sourceforge did. |
| 18:33 | <@Tamber> | Yeah. |
| 18:34 | <@TheWatcher> | Do they still do that? Wouldn't surprise me... |
| 18:34 | <&McMartin> | Even my "abandoned" projects weren't hit by it. |
| 18:34 | <@Tamber> | I forget they even exist, these days. |
| 18:35 | <&McMartin> | The two most famous projects I contribute to are both still hosted there. |
| 18:38 | <&McMartin> | (and one of them would be either banned from github or forced to host its releases elsewhere) |
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| 18:38 | <~Vornotron> | (??) |
| 18:39 | <&McMartin> | (Github is not a fan of binary releases, particularly not binary releases that are hundreds of megs in size) |
| 18:39 | <&McMartin> | (Which a full UQM install is.) |
| 18:40 | <~Vornotron> | (aha) |
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| 18:47 | <&[R]> | McMartin: personally I don't really care. However, I do suspect that MS will decide to "improve" upon the UI of github making it unusable. |
| 18:48 | <&McMartin> | That... does not seem to have much explanatory power given the current response |
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| 18:59 | <&[R]> | I don't use github to host my stuff. I do use it to get stuff other people wrote though. |
| 19:00 | <&[R]> | Hence the not caring bit. |
| 19:06 | <@TheWatcher> | McMartin: honestly, I think the majority of it just boils down to "ARGL MICROSOFT WOEPANIC!!" |
| 19:10 | <&McMartin> | That's what I summarized as "cooties", yes~ |
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| 21:47 | <@Tamber> | https://twitter.com/EdgarSanchez/status/1004087778760646656 |
| 21:49 | <&[R]> | There's a notable difference in level of control MS could exert here |
| 21:49 | <&[R]> | Also gitlab can be self-hosted for free. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | I still have no idea what the threat model is |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | compare, e.g., https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfCNEZOWkAAkRns.jpg from that thread, which is not the first place I have seen it |
| 21:53 | <@Tamber> | "eww, cooties" mostly, as you mentioned. |
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| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | THe subtext here is "lol, as if your code were safe before" |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | What does 'safe' mean |
| 21:53 | <@Tamber> | Kept away from the code moths~ |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | The only kinds of threat models I can construct the match the words as written involve assumptions of near-universal bad faith on the part of literally everybody |
| 21:54 | < Degi> | Sending code via email in word docs is the future! |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | To the point that enterprise business services as a concept, much less as an industry of its own, would be an utter nonstarter |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | Git will happily ruin your repo for you with any number of commands without MS being involved; that's the Unix way! |
| 21:55 | <@TheWatcher> | I think that it's more that the people making that sort of noise have extremely high suspicion and/or hatred of microsoft itself. |
| 21:55 | <@TheWatcher> | They think that microsoft owning github == microsoft is now going the see all their repositories |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | Right, the closest I can get to a sensible reading there is "they are acquiring GitHub as an act of industrial espoionage" |
| 21:55 | <&[R]> | Most of the actual complaints I've seen is worry that MS will screw up the UI or otherwise make the service itself unusuable. Not that they'd abuse the data. |
| 21:55 | <@Tamber> | Distrust of a level involving the words "as far as I can throw them", I think. |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | But *that* means the image I linked above is "lol, all commercian backup services are just excuses for industrial espionage" |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | *commercial backup and hosting |
| 21:56 | <@Tamber> | You mean they're not~? |
| 21:56 | < Mahal> | Regardless of your opinions of Microsoft, like McM, I feel like MS are above the commercial espionage thing in terms of their hosting. |
| 21:56 | < Mahal> | As that's, you know, a MASSIVE HUGE CHUNK of their business model. |
| 21:58 | <@Tamber> | God only knows what they could do if they get their hands on everybody's repositories of Yet Another Janky Homerolled Blogging Platform! /s |
| 21:58 | <@TheWatcher> | McM: Well, honestly, anyone who uses a commercial backup service without encrypting the data before it is sent there is kinda dumb, and - if they're in europe and any of it includes PII - asking to be reamed by the regional data protection office |
| 21:58 | < Mahal> | ^^ |
| 21:59 | <@gnolam> | McMartin: COMMERCIAN JOE |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | That still doesn't answer what the person who made that image was thinking. |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: I rate that MEDICORE |
| 21:59 | | * McMartin lets that stand. |
| 21:59 | <@gnolam> | Anyway, I thought the whole point of Git was that it was distributed. >_> |
| 22:00 | <@Tamber> | It is. |
| 22:00 | <@Tamber> | So even if the CASE NIGHTMARE BUTTERFLY end game comes about, such as is the fever dream of the people panicking about it, then none of the code or history is lost. |
| 22:00 | <@Tamber> | What would possibly disappear would be the project bug trackers and/or wiki, if they're using the ones that github provide. |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | From an article that I have oft linked before about the limited utility of Git |
| 22:01 | | * gnolam now wonders what Medicore would be like. |
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| 22:01 | <@Tamber> | But considering how many projects follow the CADT routine, losing the bug tracker saves them the work of marking everything WONTFIX~ |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | "And don't even get me started on how many developers seem to assume that they can’t get work done if GitHub goes down. Suffice it to say that I think most developers are pretty fundamentally unaware of how to use their DVCS in a distributed manner in the first place." |
| 22:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Tamber: I'd laugh, but accurate |
| 22:01 | <@gnolam> | The spike-studded lab coats are a given, but... it's the rest I'm wondering about. |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | One word, sir |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | One word |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | BONESAW |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | Elsenet "primcore" has also come up |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | From it, the observation that when one is throwing the sign of the horns, one's pinky is extended, and thus it is entirely appropriate to be drinking fancy tea from dainty cups. |
| 22:03 | <@TheWatcher> | And I note that while probably most here would say that microsoft is above industrial espionage, that's seriously not true of the dev world in general |
| 22:03 | <@Tamber> | In my case, if the almighty Microsoft thinks they can make use of a shitty blog generator written in Perl, some futzing about trying to write a pretend 'virtual machine' and a fork of a car diagnosis tool... well, they're more than welcome to it. |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | This also raises questions of the people fanatically shifting their public repositories off |
| 22:03 | <@Tamber> | ikr |
| 22:03 | <@gnolam> | (One could argue that some grindcore bands are medicore already. There is some quite serious speculation that Carcass in particular name their songs by looking up words in a medical book at random. E.g. "Swarming Vulgar Mass Of Infected Virulency" or "Cadaveric Incubator Of Endoparasites".) |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | What does it mean for a public respository have its code not be safe from predators. |
| 22:04 | <@TheWatcher> | I've also seen several people outright saying that they're working on products that are "in competition to programs from microsoft" (without, I note, saying what, so truckload of salt to begin with) hosted in private repost on github, and they're now worried that microsoft can see that, for yes, industrial espionage |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | "Infected Virulency" seems like a redundant phrase |
| 22:04 | <@TheWatcher> | *repos |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | Text editors, clearly |
| 22:05 | <@TheWatcher> | Obviously. |
| 22:05 | <@Tamber> | Nah. Operating systems. |
| 22:05 | <@Tamber> | For real-mode x86. |
| 22:05 | <@TheWatcher> | I didn't know templeos was hosted on github?~ |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | At least some software for it is. |
| 22:07 | <@gnolam> | ... ok, apparently it's not just speculation. It was literally the case: the singer borrowed his nurse sister's medical dictionary. |
| 22:07 | <@Tamber> | TW, McM: Well, at least if Microsoft ran off with that, it'd actually have *a* user~ |
| 22:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Snnnneeerk |
| 22:08 | <@Tamber> | (Oblig. response to that being: "You're just jealous because nobody uses anything you write.") |
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| 22:12 | <@TheWatcher> | (The plus side to that is that you don't need to deal with users with contradictory or utterly irrational requests, or bug reports that consist of "It didn't work when I did the thing with the whatsit") |
| 22:12 | <@Tamber> | There's that, yeah. |
| 22:12 | <&McMartin> | "Graphical bug: I can't land on Jupiter" |
| 22:12 | <&McMartin> | "The application goes away when I click the red X in the corner" |
| 22:12 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 22:13 | <~Vornotron> | I had a c64 game called jupiter lander |
| 22:13 | <~Vornotron> | Which I'm told is a clone of something but Idunno what |
| 22:13 | <@Tamber> | McM: I think I can almost understand what that second one would be getting at. |
| 22:13 | <~Vornotron> | actually I suspect there's a rather convoluted pedigree in there |
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| 22:15 | <@Tamber> | (My guess would be it translates to: "The application doesn't minimise to tray when I hit the red X") |
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| 22:25 | <@TheWatcher> | Vornotron: jupiter lander is pretty much a clone of the Atari Lunar Lander arcade machine. |
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| 22:32 | <@mac> | But... there's nothing to /land/ on on Jupiter. |
| 22:36 | <~Vornotron> | This apparently did not stop people from trying |
| 22:36 | <@Tamber> | "You can't do that!" "Challenge accepted." |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | If you try in UQM, it just blows a Raspberry at you |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | Ha ha, mockery backfire https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/8oyzq0/githubs_new_design_is_sick_microsoft_already_did/ |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | https://userstyles.org/styles/160991/github-windows-classic |
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| 23:07 | <@TheWatcher> | XD |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jun 07 00:00:56 2018 |