| --- Log opened Tue Mar 13 00:00:43 2018 |
| 00:04 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 02:34 | <@Reiv> | Alek: In NZ, rolling ones own tobacco is extremely popular still, because cigarettes are taxed enough that any savings at all are seen as useful. |
| 02:47 | <@Alek> | cool |
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| 04:23 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | https://i.redd.it/2k1ut81gpcl01.png |
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| 07:59 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 09:51 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
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| 10:41 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:56 | < simon_> | McMartin, heh. |
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| 12:58 | | Netsplit Golgafrincham.Nightstar.Net <-> Krikkit.Nightstar.Net quits: @PinkFreud, @macdjord, @himi, @McMartin, @Syloq, @gnolam, simon_ |
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| 14:51 | | * TheWatcher eyes this email |
| 14:53 | <@TheWatcher> | Forget conference spam, now I seem to be getting a series of github/open source related study/survey invitations, wat |
| 14:55 | <@Pi> | I've been getting those for years. |
| 14:57 | <&[R]> | What doc system requires you to write XML in your comments? |
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| 14:57 | | ServerMode/#code [+ooaoqoooo gnolam macdjord McMartin McMartin Vornicus Vornicus himi PinkFreud Syloq] by *.Nightstar.Net |
| 14:58 | <&[R]> | And why have the people who invented that not been lynched yet? |
| 15:01 | | Vash [Vash@Nightstar-1l3nul.res.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 15:02 | < simon_> | netsplits? |
| 15:02 | | * Vornicus wats again |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | - $joburl = $job->url() if ( $job->clicktype() =~ m/^[hai]$/ ) && $url; |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | + $args->{joburl} = $job->url if grep { $job->clicktype eq $_ } ( |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | + JIX::Article->clicktype, |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | + JIX::RobotJob->clicktype, |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | + JIX::HumanJob::jobdk->clicktype, |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | + JIX::HumanJob::jobse->clicktype, |
| 15:30 | < simon_> | + ); |
| 15:30 | | * Emmy thwacks simon_ on the head |
| 15:31 | | * simon_ is thwacked |
| 15:31 | < simon_> | I don't like either; m/^[hai]$/ is a terribly unreadable way of saying that a $job has a certain clicktype, because it assumes the reader knows what those are. and if you go to look in the list, the 'i' is even undocumented. |
| 15:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, hai? |
| 15:32 | < simon_> | yeah, heh |
| 15:33 | < simon_> | I don't like the grep solution because it has a lot of noise in it. it occurs so often that I want to test membership of a scalar in a list reference in Perl, and every time I google how that's done best, I end up with: grep { $foo eq $_ } (...) |
| 16:09 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 16:19 | <&[R]> | Ughhh hate MTP/PTP so much |
| 16:19 | <&[R]> | Unrelated: https://amdflaws.com/ |
| 16:30 | <&[R]> | Soooo much |
| 16:44 | <&[R]> | None of the MTP stuff I can find works, the PTP thing I found was written for a 2.4 kernel... and it's a kernel module... and it's meant to be compiled in the kernel's source tree... |
| 16:44 | <&[R]> | D: |
| 16:44 | <&[R]> | I'm going to have to boot into Windows just to do this aren't I? |
| 16:45 | <&[R]> | (and Windows' treating of MTP/PTP subtly different than a real filesystem is pretty annoying too) |
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| 17:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have had no more success with MTP or PTP on windows than on linux or OSX; it just fails in different ways |
| 17:23 | <&McMartin> | MTP/PTP EAP |
| 17:23 | <&[R]> | So far it's working, I'm getting the files copied over |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g. it appears to work but all the files are 16KB of zeroes rather than the actual content, or are truncated to 512b |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: Media Transfer Protocol/Photograph Transfer Protocol |
| 17:23 | <&[R]> | Execute Arbitrary Programs? |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | The thing that cell phones these days use instead of directly mounting the internal storage to talk to a computer |
| 17:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: Expand Acronym Please |
| 17:24 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 17:24 | <&[R]> | Yeah, expanding the acronym doesn't help IMO. Just saying it's the shitty thing you need to read from a camera/tablet is fine. |
| 17:24 | <&McMartin> | I was mixing PTP with P2P |
| 17:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: I would strongly recommend checking the integrity of the files after copying; I've had lots of experience with MTP/PTP "succeeding" in that no errors are reported, but not in the sense that the files were actually transferred intact. |
| 17:25 | <&[R]> | Think I'm going to see if I can get an FTP client or something on my tablet so I can just transfer directly over WiFi instead. |
| 17:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | These days I just use Syncthing and do all my transfers over the network. |
| 17:26 | <&[R]> | Yeah, I filled the tablet's disk with downloads |
| 17:26 | <&[R]> | :/ |
| 17:27 | <&McMartin> | On OSX I use a standalone android tool to dump data |
| 17:27 | <&[R]> | 6 GB of pictures |
| 17:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | So once a day or so all the photos I took get copied from the phone to the server, and all the comics and ebooks get copied from the server to the tablet. |
| 17:28 | <&[R]> | Interesting |
| 17:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | (this is the same software that keeps ~/devel/ in sync between my laptop and server; I use it all over the place these days) |
| 17:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | (once a day because I have it configured to sync only when charging, and I plug it in every night) |
| 18:23 | <&[R]> | <MilkmanDan> https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/845w8e/alleged_amd_zen_security_flaws_megathread/ for anyone who wants to follow along with the AMD "flaw" scam, but at this point I think it's mainly just for the lulz. |
| 18:34 | <&[R]> | https://whois.domaintools.com/amdflaws.com " 19 days old Created on 2018-02-22 " |
| 18:35 | <&[R]> | Actually, I suppose that bit's not all that wrong |
| 18:36 | <&[R]> | Meanwhile cts-labs.com isn't even a year old either (though it is over 6 months old) |
| 18:38 | <&McMartin> | "And apparently the story is being pushed by a company that is known for basically short-selling stocks and then spreading FUD about them" |
| 18:39 | <~Vornicus> | neat |
| 18:39 | <&McMartin> | In particular this: https://viceroyresearch.org/2018/03/13/amd-the-obituary/ |
| 18:39 | <&McMartin> | As for "good faith", all of these exploits require you to already have root or have root *and* have installed a compromised BIOS |
| 19:31 | <@iospace> | in sort, fuck captalism? |
| 19:32 | <&McMartin> | Only if you're incredibly lazy |
| 19:32 | <&McMartin> | The cool part about this if they did short it is that AMD is actually up today |
| 19:32 | <&McMartin> | And there is no limit on the amount of money you can lose shorting a stock. |
| 19:32 | <&McMartin> | Going long, you're capped at losing all the money you ever put in |
| 19:32 | <&McMartin> | Shorting has no such limit |
| 19:33 | <&McMartin> | And it gets even more fucking to the would-be fucker if they pick a stock that's thinly traded (I have no idea how heavily traded AMD is) |
| 19:34 | <&McMartin> | Also, spoiler alert: badmouthing competitors or rivals to make money predates capitalism by a lot |
| 19:34 | | mac [macdjord@Nightstar-a1fj2k.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #code |
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| 19:35 | <&McMartin> | (As for whether shorting is predatory or not, that turns out to be messy, and so I will just grill some onions and leave it at that) |
| 19:37 | | macdjord [macdjord@Nightstar-a1fj2k.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:38 | <~Vornicus> | unlike regular positions where you can just hold on to your stocks until life gets better, if you've shorted a stock and it goes up enough you get what's called a margin call: you *must* buy stock to cover your margin, and that means you're going to lose money on your short... and on thinly traded stock it also means you're adding buy volume, which drives up the price, which may force *more* margin calls |
| 19:40 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, when shorting a future of an actual product, that is basically a farmer saying "I would like to sell next season's harvest of carrots/rice/whatever at the market price *right now*" |
| 19:40 | <&McMartin> | And sure, that is in some sense betting that the price is going to be lower next season |
| 19:40 | <~Vornicus> | and I thought this was fp for a minute |
| 19:40 | <&McMartin> | But it's also locking in a fixed contract which is handy |
| 19:41 | <&McMartin> | Nope, somebody's trying to play dumb shenanigans with AMD's stock price and overplayed their hand. |
| 19:41 | <~Vornicus> | it's like "yeah we'll pretend it's meltdown again" and then all the experts on meltdown show up |
| 19:42 | <~Vornicus> | (I know, but that seems like something that might also show up in fp) |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin> | Also they claimed that these are so terrifying that the mean AMD's actual value is $0.00 |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin> | Which, um, no. |
| 19:43 | | * McMartin also >_>, hears there's a vulnerability in every microprocessor ever built going back to the Intel 4004 that allows user-assisted arbitrary code execution |
| 20:14 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 20:24 | <@iospace> | processors were a mistake |
| 20:26 | | * gnolam eyes that megathread. |
| 20:26 | <@gnolam> | https://i.imgur.com/OkWlIxA.jpg |
| 20:26 | <@gnolam> | Well, I admire their moxie. |
| 20:27 | <&McMartin> | It was an initial claim sufficiently plausible that it did actually take 30 minutes of investigation to discount |
| 20:27 | <&McMartin> | That's well above the bar for pure bullshit these days |
| 20:28 | | RchrdB [RchrdB@Nightstar-qe9.aug.187.81.IP] has joined #code |
| 20:44 | <@iospace> | especially after the intel stuff |
| 20:44 | <@iospace> | I'm pretty sure AMD has a few bugs in the pipe that they have been notified on |
| 20:44 | <@iospace> | because you know ful well as soon as Intel started getting hit people were going to look at AMD |
| 20:45 | < RchrdB> | oh we're talking about that? |
| 20:45 | < RchrdB> | all of infosec twitter seems to be really raging about how overblown it is |
| 20:45 | <@iospace> | I'm not claiming that one is legit |
| 20:46 | < RchrdB> | I'm personally hoping the perpetrators were dumb enough to execute their short-selling out in the open and subsequently go to jail for flagrantly violating insider trading law. |
| 20:46 | <@iospace> | but I'm saying that it's likely that AMD does have a few bugs that are in the pipeline and yet to be disclosed |
| 20:46 | < RchrdB> | yeah. it seems most likely that everyone does. |
| 20:47 | < RchrdB> | except RISC-V and Mill because they haven't shipped any production hardware? ;) |
| 20:48 | < RchrdB> | oh and Zilog! the Z-80 will definitely not turn out to have any new security-relevant bugs - because it already has absolutely zero features for enforcing security boundaries built in anyway. :3 |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | RchrdB: I'd like them to be financially ruined by margin calls first, since AMD stock is up |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | Hey, if the Z80 is clear, so is the 6502 |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | That also said |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | I have the Z80 manual right here |
| 20:49 | < RchrdB> | McMartin, oh really? I wasn't expecting that. |
| 20:49 | < RchrdB> | "por que no los dos" though, as the kids say |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | Quite so. The fact that your scam lost you money doesn't make it less illegal. |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, re: Zilog, the very first page of the Z80 manual is an incredibly stern warning re: not using Z80 chips in any truly mission-critical equipment |
| 20:50 | < RchrdB> | I'd consider the 6502 clear too by the same definition: if you make no promises then you can't break any of your promises |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | With some parts of the phrasing that imply they mean even for embedded devices with no network connections |
| 20:50 | < RchrdB> | Huh. |
| 20:50 | < RchrdB> | Is that *more* than the usual standard disclaimer about DO NOT USE JAVA(TM) FOR CONTROLLING NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS or...? |
| 20:52 | <&McMartin> | It was very similar and IIRC avionics, pacemakers, and nuclear power plants were all named specifically |
| 20:52 | <&McMartin> | But I can't find my pdf to get the full quote |
| 20:53 | < RchrdB> | I'm happy to take your word for it :) |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | Right, but now I'm vexed because where did my Z80 manual go |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | Looks like I'd conflated a bit with the Java one. |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | This is specifically saying to not use it in life support systems. |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | "Warning: DO NOT USE THIS PRODUCT IN LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS. ZILOG'S PRODUCTS ARE NOT AUHORIZED FOR USE AS CRITICAL COMPONENTS IN LIFE SUPPOR DEVICES OR SYSTEMS WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PRIOR WRITTEN APPROVAL OF THE PRESIDENT AND GENERAL COUNSEL OF ZILOG CORPORATION." |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | Followed by definitions of what makes something a life support device, or a critical component. |
| 20:57 | <&McMartin> | I'm trying to imagine what a cover letter attempting to secure that express prior written approval would even look like. |
| 20:58 | < RchrdB> | So life support devices have to use *something* and... are 6502s a good fit? they're so simple that you can take an x-ray and verify the entire design by looking at the physical transistors, no need to take anyone's word for it that any given circuit diagram corresponds to the shipped hardware. |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | I think there's some kind of extra design or certification requirements. |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | Which I imagine Western Digital has also not done. |
| 20:59 | < RchrdB> | If I worked at a microcontroller design shop, I'd want a signed purchase order from the customer showing enough money to hire an entire state-of-the-art design verification department and pay all their salaries for half a decade. |
| 21:00 | | * McMartin consults his Motorola 68000 family manual, finds the following, though in much smaller print than the Z80 case |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | "Motorola products are not designed, intended, or authorized for use as components in systems intended for surgical implant into the body, or other applications intended to support or sustain life, or for any other application in which the failure of the Motorola product could create a situation where personal injury or death may occur." |
| 21:02 | < RchrdB> | Sure. That said, if you're NASA, you can completely ignore whether or not the vendor tested it and take responsibility for the quality of shipped product yourself, inspecting and testing really closely. |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Which is why you get things where the verification of the satellite's software turns up buffer overflows or stack smashes but leaves them be because it's verified with them in place but not verified with them "fixed" |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | And thanks to that one incident with the Debian PRNG seed, we know that this is Correct Action in that space. |
| 21:03 | < RchrdB> | I wonder how much those disclaimers are "please don't get us sued for loss of life", how much they are "no really we haven't tested it THAT well, we don't want corpses on our conscience" and how much they are "we want a money hat first". |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | These families of chips have been continuously manufactured since the 1970s so I'm ruling out the latter on the grounds that Someone Would Have Brought The Hat Money by now. |
| 21:04 | < RchrdB> | I vaguely remember hearing that some of the microcontrollers used at NASA have known "halt and catch fire" instruction sequence bugs, except they don't even *count* as bugs because they're fully understood and documented and the software testing program verifies that your avionics software can never invoke them. |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | That fits with the stories I'm told. It also fits with the stories I'm told that you also end up with a few lines of code produced per year. |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | Er |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | A few thousand |
| 21:05 | < RchrdB> | I don't think that's enough reason to rule out the latter: one Hat of Money from *each* customer with life-support reqs is better than one Hat of Money from just the first. |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | The first one ("don't get us sued") is also definitely in there, since both also include indemnification paragraphs |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | And while there are, I'm told, limits to those |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | "We literally explicitly told you not to do this, you did anyway, don't come complaining to *us*" seems like it would be a pretty solid argument |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | Especially if backed by a policy of "if we get wind that you want to use them for this, we will stop selling them to you" |
| 21:07 | < RchrdB> | a much better argument than "NO WARRANTY SOLD AS-IS BLAH BLAH BLAH" |
| 21:08 | < RchrdB> | ooh yeah if you can document even one incident where you withheld supply then you're in a very good position to have that statement taken seriously |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | Now, if it were "don't tell us what you're going to use them for *this* time, instead go to this other retailer who asks no questions" that's very different |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, if said medical supply company went to a hardware store and bought your chips, I would not relish trying to convince a judge that Motorola should have somehow stopped me from doing so |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | I changed pronouns halfway through that sentence but |
| 21:10 | < RchrdB> | meaning still understood |
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| 21:38 | <@gnolam> | <McMartin> It was very similar and IIRC avionics, pacemakers, and nuclear power plants were all named specifically |
| 21:38 | <@gnolam> | I cackled with glee when I found such wording when I was doing the radiation drone project. |
| 21:38 | <@gnolam> | "No aircraft, nothing life-critical and for god's sake keep it away from anything nuclear, eh? BWAHAHA WE'RE DOING ALL OF THEM AT ONCE." |
| 21:38 | < RchrdB> | hehehe |
| 21:41 | < RchrdB> | aaargh stupid fucking coarse-grained digital volume control |
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| 23:27 | <&[R]> | <NightStar:#code:ToxicFrog> [R]: I would strongly recommend checking the integrity of the files after copying; I've had lots of experience with MTP/PTP "succeeding" in that no errors are reported, but not in the sense that the files were actually transferred intact. <-- anyway to do that with Windows? |
| 23:27 | <&[R]> | Normally I'd just run md5sum or the like |
| 23:29 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 23:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: in my case the damage was really obvious because the files had different sizes |
| 23:31 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 23:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | I also have md5sum installed on my windows machine, so I'd just use that, but that doesn't help you |
| 23:31 | <&[R]> | Heh |
| 23:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Absent that, I'd probably check the files and then just spot check a few of them in some format-appropriate way to make sure they work? |
| 23:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | *check the file sizes |
| 23:32 | <&[R]> | for f in "*.*"; do file $f; done | fgrep -v 'image data' # did this, get just over a dozen things filtered out. |
| 23:32 | <&[R]> | Oh wait no, about 5 dozen |
| 23:32 | <&[R]> | ... wc -l says 102 |
| 23:33 | <&[R]> | I suck a counting clearly |
| 23:34 | < RchrdB> | [R], there's a checksum util that comes with windows these days but i can't remember what it is |
| 23:35 | < RchrdB> | https://superuser.com/questions/245775/is-there-a-built-in-checksum-utility-on-windows-7/898377#898377 |
| 23:36 | < RchrdB> | oh and apparently powershell has `Get-FileHash` built in since a while ago |
| 23:40 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 23:42 | <&[R]> | Ah nice |
| 23:42 | <&[R]> | Yeah, I can't view any of the RIFF stuff (which is like 90% of that 102) |
| 23:43 | <&[R]> | $ for f in "*.*"; do file $f; done | fgrep 'image data' | cut -d : -f 1 | sed 's/^/xzgv "/g' | sed 's/$/"/g' | bash # going through this ATM |
| 23:48 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-gil1m1.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 23:48 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| --- Log closed Wed Mar 14 00:00:44 2018 |