| --- Log opened Mon Jan 29 00:00:40 2018 |
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| 04:51 | | * McMartin attempts to compare two integers, gets it right on the fifth try |
| 04:51 | <&McMartin> | I am perhaps not as sharp as I'd like to be, tonight |
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| 05:54 | | * McMartin gets to declare a variable named zap_phase |
| 06:55 | <&McMartin> | Also, that's a good sound effect. |
| 06:55 | | * McMartin is now satisfied with that aspect. |
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| 08:15 | < Jessikat`> | :D |
| 08:16 | < Jessikat`> | I get to figure out what I can do in two weeks |
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| 09:30 | <@TheWatcher> | "Zap Phase" sounds like a 50s cartoon space hero |
| 09:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Or a particularly cheesy news reporter, now I think about it. |
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| 14:52 | < VirusJTG> | someone just contacted me about a COBOL developer. Any of you hate life that much? |
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| 16:40 | <&McMartin> | It seems like it's less of a matter of hating life and more of a matter of a parallel or cousin tradition |
| 16:41 | <&McMartin> | Which actually attacked the problems academic CS scorned for decades, and then when they decided they were totally going to do it better, adapted a language literally intended for smart toasters for the problem and then built twelve gigantic ecosystems around it with "enterprise" everywhere they could fit it in |
| 16:42 | <&McMartin> | And still nobody really wants to attack those problems~ |
| 16:42 | <&McMartin> | (This is also unfair, because Enterprise Java isn't COBOL, it's Ada's Revenge) |
| 16:43 | <&[R]> | You're talking about COBOL still? |
| 16:44 | <&McMartin> | "still" is an odd choice of words given that it was the line immediately previous to mine |
| 16:49 | <&[R]> | Perhaps, but I'm unfamiliar with COBOL's history, what you were saying seemed almost like it could've been related to something earlier |
| 16:51 | | Jessikat [Jessikat@Nightstar-d902s3.dab.02.net] has joined #code |
| 16:52 | <&[R]> | (Also I just woke up, and am not the quickest at noticing things) |
| 16:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: I think what McMartin meant -- the antecedents are ambiguous -- is "COBOL evolved to tackle real-world problems of "enterprise" software development at scale that academic CS researchers weren't interested in solving; when that interest developed, academia decided to solve it using Java" |
| 17:01 | <&McMartin> | Mostly true, except for the part where it didn't do much evolution |
| 17:01 | <&McMartin> | Until it was too late~ |
| 17:02 | <&McMartin> | Recent changes in the language appear to be people raised in Java looking at Cobol and wondering if it could be made more like Java maybe |
| 17:03 | <&McMartin> | (Also since it didn't really evolve much it got like 60 solid years of optimization work, albeit Only From IBM. Still, I'd love to see some performance shootouts on its own turf.) |
| 17:04 | <&McMartin> | The Ada bit is that it was roundly condemned by Real Programmers of the age for all its various things that were clearly demanded because it was designed by committee |
| 17:05 | <&McMartin> | And then you look at the code now and it's Basically Java (or, due to syntax quirks, maybe a little more like C#) |
| 17:05 | <&McMartin> | So yeah, COBOL's the wayward cousin, Ada's the prodigal son~ |
| 17:15 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of old and bad systems, new Bumbershoot post. https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2018/01/29/zx81-mind-games/ |
| 17:54 | < VirusJTG> | if you are interested in the job I could forward it to an email address of your's choice |
| 17:54 | < VirusJTG> | - the 's there |
| 17:56 | < VirusJTG> | its locaed in Malvern, PA |
| 17:56 | < VirusJTG> | COBOL and DB2 |
| 17:57 | < VirusJTG> | which to me sounds worse than having the clown from it as a room mate |
| 18:01 | <&jeroud> | Java seems to have become, early on, spectacularly successful at probably the most important part of its job. |
| 18:03 | <&jeroud> | Which is to allow a team consisting of a handful of really smart system architects and a gigantic army of mediocre programmers to collectively build things that actually work. |
| 18:03 | <&jeroud> | (The architects write the interfaces, the army writes the implementations behind them.) |
| 18:06 | <&jeroud> | (An oversimplification, of course, but essentially the process I've observed on occasion.) |
| 18:18 | <&McMartin> | Hm. At what point are you considering "early" now? |
| 18:19 | <&McMartin> | I feel like it had a few missteps along the way, but I was there not only before java.util.ArrayList was a thing, but before java.util.Vector was. |
| 18:19 | <&McMartin> | (Although not *much* before. I think Java 1.2 came out while I was fiddling with my first Applet.) |
| 18:23 | <&jeroud> | This was while I was at university, so early 2000s. |
| 18:24 | <&jeroud> | Maybe the second half of the decade, though. |
| 18:24 | <&McMartin> | Early 2000s was when J2EE was taking form and later 200X was when it was abandoned in favor of Tomcat and related projects (Struts, Spring, etc) |
| 18:24 | <&jeroud> | By "early" I guess I mean "around the time it became industry standard". |
| 18:24 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 18:25 | <&McMartin> | It was making strong inroads almost immediately after public release in the educational sphere |
| 18:25 | <&McMartin> | Because hate as you will on Java, it beats the shit out of Pascal at everything you'd ever want to use Pascal for instead of C. |
| 18:26 | <&jeroud> | I think most of the real issues people have with Java essentially reduce to "it does not scale down well". |
| 18:27 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord |
| 18:27 | <&jeroud> | Which is really disconcerting to anyone who thinks it's at all close to its origins. |
| 18:27 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 18:28 | <&McMartin> | Android turns out to be closer to those origins than I'd like to admit >_> |
| 18:28 | <&McMartin> | (And that is mostly where I contend with Java these days.) |
| 18:29 | <&jeroud> | And I think Java (at least before the "new" language features driven by JRuby) is a terrible fit for that. |
| 18:30 | <&McMartin> | I would have said "driven by Scala", but I think it's just that FP got trendy |
| 18:30 | <&jeroud> | Scala, Groovy, and Clojure all helped. |
| 18:31 | <&jeroud> | But JRuby was where all the deployments were. |
| 18:31 | < VirusJTG> | awesome, my new SAN was just delivered |
| 18:31 | <&jeroud> | Great! Roll a SAN check for configuring it.~ |
| 18:32 | | * VirusJTG rolls a natural 20 :) |
| 18:32 | <&McMartin> | Someone was having trouble with a TSR in a retro channel |
| 18:32 | | * McMartin made a THAC0 pun, which turned out to be more of a Delayed Blast. |
| 18:32 | <&jeroud> | Pity that system uses percentiles.~ |
| 18:32 | <&McMartin> | I forget if low or high is good in it~ |
| 18:33 | <&jeroud> | (SAN is from the Cthulhu system.) |
| 18:33 | <&McMartin> | (Yes, hence my question; I've never really used any iteration of CoC or its engine as far as I know) |
| 18:33 | <&jeroud> | Low is good. You want to roll below the skill. |
| 18:34 | <&jeroud> | But your skills are typically fairly low. It is a *Lovecraftian* system, after all. |
| 18:35 | <&jeroud> | SAN isn't a skill, but players typically start with somewhere between 20 and 60. |
| 18:35 | <&jeroud> | A success SAN check usually decreases the SAN loss rather than preventing it. |
| 18:36 | <&McMartin> | If we're being properly Lovecraftian, one would also need to make a SAN check when encountering, say, a person of mixed-race heritage, or a modern mathematics text |
| 18:37 | <&McMartin> | (My vague understanding of the rules is more like 'dead bodies and/or pools of blood' and for those, passing means no sanity loss) |
| 18:37 | <&jeroud> | About the most dangerous thing one can do in a Cthulhu game is open a book. |
| 18:38 | <&jeroud> | Anything occult-related costs SAN. |
| 18:38 | <&jeroud> | "Normal" things usually don't or a successful check can prevent it. |
| 18:39 | <@gnolam> | McMartin: obligatory: http://www.happletea.com/comic/the-true-face-of-horror/ |
| 18:39 | | * McMartin guesses, clicks |
| 18:39 | <&jeroud> | If you find yourself trying to stop an eldritch ritual conducted by a not-quite-human... |
| 18:39 | | * McMartin was wrong |
| 18:40 | | * McMartin thought that was going to be the one where the terrifying forbidden knowledge was a complete list of brassica cultivars |
| 18:41 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: Worth noting that preventing riots in the aftermath of that very scenario is one of the miracles associated with our half-sainted Mad Emperor |
| 18:41 | <&jeroud> | Given what I vaguely remember of Happle Tea from a decade ago, I was expecting "homework". |
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| 19:44 | <&McMartin> | Oh dear |
| 19:44 | <&McMartin> | I have a task, and I have a strange urge to use Perl tot solve it instead of Python. |
| 19:45 | <~Vornicus> | flee |
| 20:23 | | * VirusJTG prapairs for what ever dark creation of the void McMartin is about to summon. |
| 20:23 | | * McMartin went with Python after all; it turns out urllib2 does what he needs. |
| 20:24 | <&McMartin> | (in particular, whatever it is you need to pass -L to curl to make it do for redirects) |
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| 20:43 | <&jeroud> | It must be a *very* strange problem if *urllib2* solves it. |
| 20:44 | <&[R]> | Should he be using urllib3 instead? |
| 20:45 | <&jeroud> | Yes, but not directly. |
| 20:45 | | * [R] was kind of joking that there'd be a urllib3 :/ |
| 20:46 | <&jeroud> | The correct solution to pretty much every (non-async) HTTP client problem in Python is "requests". |
| 20:47 | <&jeroud> | urllib and urllib2 are in the Python standard library. There's History around those. |
| 20:48 | <&jeroud> | urllib *mostly* has assorted utilities like urlencode and such, urllib2 *mostly* has low to medium level HTTP things. |
| 20:49 | <&jeroud> | There's also urlopen() in one of them that tries to be open() but over the network. (This is exactly as terrible an idea as it sounds.) |
| 20:50 | <&jeroud> | urllib3 is a third-party library that is kind of an HTTP client, but is mostly an HTTP client building toolkit. |
| 20:52 | <&jeroud> | Then there are a few things (like requests) that build on top of urllib3 to provide a much more sensible API with all sorts of convenient features. |
| 20:56 | <&jeroud> | [R]: I hope that explains the history a bit.a |
| 20:57 | <&jeroud> | And you're not the first person to have that experience. |
| 20:58 | <&[R]> | It does |
| 21:00 | <&jeroud> | Python was a fantastic language a decade ago, but now it's merely acceptable. |
| 21:00 | <&jeroud> | Mostly because standards have changed, etc. |
| 21:01 | <&jeroud> | The language itself is decent, although the whole Python 3 thing was a disaster. |
| 21:02 | <&jeroud> | The stdlib has not aged well, and can reasonably be used as an example of why including all the batteries isn't necessary the best idea. |
| 21:02 | <&jeroud> | (Have you ever cleaned old rotten battery leakage out of anything?) |
| 21:03 | <&jeroud> | These days I much prefer the "lightweight stdlib full of simple primitives" approach. |
| 21:04 | <&jeroud> | (Especially when Supervisor and GenServer are two of those primitives.) |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it turns out in this case that urllib2.urlopen(url).read() works but "curl -O url" does not |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | But curl -LO url does |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | which is a specific kind of redirect but I don't care enough to figure outt what kind, because of the aforementioned Just Working part. |
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| 21:36 | <&[R]> | <ayecee> in theory, theory is the same as practice |
| 21:45 | <&jeroud> | By default, curl doesn't follow redirects at all. |
| 21:45 | <&[R]> | That's what the -L option is for |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. I'm used to not getting a 0-byte response without it though. Maybe my previous attempts elsenet were 3xx responses with bodies? |
| 21:49 | <&jeroud> | Could be. A 30x response is allowed to have a body, and it used to be more common before user-agents started following the Location headers. |
| 21:50 | <&jeroud> | But there's also that multiple-choices thing that I haven't ever actually seen but have found references to. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jan 30 00:00:42 2018 |