| --- Log opened Thu Jan 18 00:00:31 2018 |
| 00:10 | < McMartin> | I was going to say I wielded PETSCII before I wielded Codepage 437, but thinking back on it I'm not 100% sure that's true. |
| 00:10 | < McMartin> | CHR$(1) |
| 00:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | I was definitely using something else before I was exposed to CP437, but I have no idea what it was |
| 00:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | workeegs: oh, monospaced everything, but I like monospaced with ligatures |
| 00:17 | < McMartin> | (I know I had reliable access to IBM BASICA before I had reliable access to a C64, but I can't say I didn't have intermittent access to a C64 first, nor that I wouldn't use the screen editor and the shift keys to draw pictures on the screen) |
| 00:41 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 00:51 | < workeegs> | Monospaced + ligatures is actually pretty cool |
| 00:51 | < workeegs> | some day i'll probably get used to it. |
| 00:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've now gotten sidetracked upgrading the ligaturizing script. |
| 00:53 | <&[R]> | Isn't that what the ever annoying "smart quotes" are? |
| 01:04 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: no, smart quotes are a distinct character |
| 01:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ux201C and Ux201D |
| 01:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is why they're such a pain in the ass; you type " and you get something different in the actual file. |
| 01:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ligatures are purely a visual thing; the underlying encoding is not affected. |
| 01:27 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 01:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | (There are also separate characters corresponding to most ligatures, but using those has the problem that, e.g., foo->bar and foo→bar do not look the same to the compiler -- the same problem as smart quotes) |
| 01:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | (ligatures have the disadvantage that you need to have a ligaturized font installed to see them at all, but the advantage that that's all you need; no change in file contents is needed.) |
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| 02:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, now I just need the author of the ligaturizer to add a license to it so I can publish these patches |
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| 02:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | (what I've done is combine the ligatures (which I quite like) from Fira Code (which I otherwise hate) with my default fixedwidth font, Cousine) |
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| 04:12 | < McMartin> | Progress: https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2018/01/18/game-boy-progress-display-timing/ |
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| 04:18 | < McMartin> | Currently weighing in at 584 bytes. |
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| 06:02 | < Jessikat> | The Clean Coder is a book everyone employed or intending to be employed as a programmer should read tbh |
| 06:03 | < Jessikat> | About halfway through it and it's not that long, but it says so many things people really ought to hear |
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| 07:56 | <@abudhabi> | Is there any way to make Open Office Draw make grid lines visible in exports? |
| 07:56 | <@abudhabi> | Not just as an aid in editing? |
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| 08:22 | <@gnolam> | Oh joy. Hardware so old the API documentation is a dot matrix printout. |
| 08:23 | <@gnolam> | ... sorry. I should have zoomed in on the scan. Electric typewriter. ;_; |
| 08:28 | <@gnolam> | And it's just a list of commands and the sequence to trigger them. No explanation of what they actually *do*. |
| 08:29 | <@gnolam> | Just vaguely cryptic names like "Diagnostics Beam Switch Open" or "Head Override". |
| 08:31 | <@gnolam> | And some mad scribbles in the margins. |
| 08:32 | <@gnolam> | Welp. Guess I'm now in a Zachtronics ARG. |
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| 09:16 | <&[R]> | D: |
| 09:18 | < Vornlicious> | What is this device |
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| 09:24 | <&[R]> | "it prevents high quality account design from emerging" |
| 09:24 | <&[R]> | wat |
| 09:24 | <&[R]> | Why... why... why are you expecting good design to /emerge/? |
| 09:26 | < Vornlicious> | Emerge, sure. Prosper, gain traction, less so. |
| 09:26 | < Vornlicious> | But preventing it from emerging will make certain that you won't have anything good to point to. |
| 09:27 | <&[R]> | http://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2017/12/18/Excuses.html <-- reading the blog BTW |
| 09:34 | <@TheWatcher> | I get his point, but I'd still argue the equivalence he's attempting is false |
| 09:39 | | * Vornlicious examines. |
| 09:40 | <@TheWatcher> | That honestly strikes me as a "programmers are lazy because they don't do something that looks like this thing in another discipline, while I conveniently ignore that there are huge areas that are subject to completely pressures and management misunderstandings between them" |
| 09:41 | < Vornlicious> | This excuse misunderstands actual impediments to good design |
| 09:41 | <@gnolam> | "completely pressures"? |
| 09:42 | <@TheWatcher> | *bompletely different pressures |
| 09:42 | <&[R]> | different+* |
| 09:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah |
| 09:43 | <@TheWatcher> | (Also, his attempt to say that accountants "maintain their disipline"? Patent bollocks, as you'd find if you ever had to deal with - as a totally random and hypothetical example - a university finance department's approach to doing their fucking job properly,) |
| 09:49 | <@gnolam> | Vornlicious: spectro. From, AFAICT, the '80s. |
| 09:51 | < Vornlicious> | Aha |
| 09:59 | <&[R]> | Vorn: what do you consider to be impediments to good design? |
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| 10:01 | <@gnolam> | Although given the documentation, I'm now half-convinced it's a spectr*e*photometer. |
| 10:02 | <@gnolam> | When I finally get it to work, it will start showing me wavelengths man was not meant to perceive. |
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| 10:03 | | * TheWatcher renames gnolam to Crawford Tillinghast |
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| 10:07 | <@gnolam> | "Manufactured in USA by Blasted Heath Scientific, LLC" |
| 10:13 | < Vornlicious> | [R]: among other things: lack of clarity in goals; poor communication between stakeholders; lack of basic knowledge of available designs; next-big-thingism |
| 10:23 | < Jessikat`> | Good design is hard and is something you have to keep track of as your system is built |
| 10:24 | < Jessikat`> | You can't do it up front because that's abstraction before you have the concrete |
| 10:24 | < Jessikat`> | Design is an iterative process |
| 10:24 | < Jessikat`> | His book on architecture is also worth reading imo |
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| 10:25 | < Jessikat> | Martin is somewhat blustery but he's got a lot of experience in doing things wrong and contriteness in how to do them better |
| 10:25 | < Jessikat> | I've no idea how his blog entries match up but I'm glad he's written those books |
| 10:33 | < Vornlicious> | Good (program) design is in a lot of ways making sure your system can grow in the right places. |
| 10:35 | < Vornlicious> | We complain about "enterprisey" software where the answer to "should it be allowed to grow here" was always answered yes and this makes them hard to use even for common cases, but we also complain about too limited things where you can't add stuff where it turns out you need it. |
| 10:41 | < Jessikat> | His book on architecture is well worth reading as well - he quantifies what it means for modules to depend on one another and how to make sure you get maximum flexibility whilst also working to make that stable. How to make sure that you allow the right things to remain flexible longest |
| 10:41 | < Jessikat> | I guess I'm impressed since most people talk about architecture in very wishy washy ways |
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| 14:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Me yesterday: "I think I'll install a ligaturized font" |
| 14:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Me today: *reading the OpenType Contextual Alternates Table specification* |
| 14:56 | <@TheWatcher> | FLY, YOU FOOL |
| 15:05 | <@gnolam> | GLARGHAgharhgbfffffNRGH |
| 15:07 | <@gnolam> | This week I have explained THREE times to the same person why [feature] cannot be done for [hardware], because the driver doesn't give us the appropriate information. |
| 15:07 | <@gnolam> | I just got a fourth e-mail. |
| 15:10 | <@TheWatcher> | Reply with all three previous emails? |
| 15:18 | <&[R]> | That's always fun |
| 15:19 | <@Tamber> | Wonder if they're just emailing over and over, in the hope of getting a message through to someone different who'll give them a different answer? *grin* |
| 15:20 | <&[R]> | Just gotta keep at it |
| 15:21 | <&[R]> | When I worked for $CCP, we'd get external audits done (because we handled CC data, and we were regulatorily complied to get said audits). Anyways, auditor's trying to XSS our new interface. We were using ExtJS which is a heavy UI library for JS applications, and things were setup so that most actions would send data to the backend. |
| 15:22 | <&[R]> | Auditor tells my boss that we have an XSS vuln. He input some JS into a field and it ran. So I took a look, in the DB the JS is all properly escaped so when it'd display from the DB's contents it would /not/ run. Did a few tests of my own. Basically the UI library would help us and display data entered before the round-trip to the DB finished. Except we did all our input validation/filtering/correction on the server side. |
| 15:24 | <&[R]> | So I tell the boss, no it's not an XSS bug, just a UI one. Here's why. I spend an *hour* telling him this. Two hours later, auditor's got him convinced it's an XSS bug again. I explain the full steps of my testing, what is going on, and why I think it's just a UI bug (30 minutes). Got him on my side again. |
| 15:25 | <&[R]> | Auditor convinces him again, and it goes on for a bit. Ended up spending pretty much the entire day convincing my boss the UI bug was just that. Only chance they could get that to actually affect a victim is if they're in the position for the victim to blindly enter data themselves... in which case there isn't much we can do. |
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| 15:42 | <&[R]> | Confirming I was right wasn't difficult either: 1) refresh the UI, you'd see the sanitized entry unable to run 2) check the DB directly, you'd see the same thing 3) look at the php that the ajax call hits, very first thing every php page did was go through all inputs it'd use and sanitize them all. |
| 15:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Ugh |
| 15:54 | <&[R]> | Boss was definately my least favorite part of that job. (And he /was/ a technical person) |
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| 19:47 | < simon_> | [R], "technical". |
| 19:47 | < simon_> | [R], CS degree /= rational mind. =) |
| 19:48 | < simon_> | weighing the probability that something is true by the amount they're talked to is something an empath would do. |
| 19:48 | < simon_> | I *feel* you're right! |
| 19:50 | < simon_> | not that that's a poor quality in a boss, though. I'm not sure exactly how an empathetic person would rate conflicting security concerns from opposing sides. but bouncing back and forth certainly doesn't seem like a good way. |
| 19:51 | < workeegs> | stability is nice. |
| 19:51 | < workeegs> | gentle course corrections when necessary. |
| 20:00 | | * ToxicFrog pokes C++ with a stick |
| 20:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | if (const auto* foo = ...) { /* some stuff */ } else if (const auto* bar = ...) { /* some stuff with foo */ } |
| 20:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | I would expect this to be a compilation error (foo not in scope in the bar block) |
| 20:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Instead it appears to be a segfault! |
| 20:04 | < McMartin> | Are you sure there isn't another foo that the foo in your quote is shadowing? |
| 20:04 | < McMartin> | And that was never initialized as a result? |
| 20:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | That first if clause is the only place that token appears. |
| 20:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, the if clause and both branches. |
| 20:06 | < McMartin> | Wait |
| 20:06 | <@TheWatcher> | won't foo be NULL by definition to get into the else? |
| 20:06 | < McMartin> | That code is equivalent to if (...) { ... } else { if (...) { ... } } |
| 20:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: yes, that's why it segfaults |
| 20:07 | < McMartin> | So, I don't often define variables in if clauses |
| 20:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | (although I think it will actually be uninitialized, not null) |
| 20:07 | < McMartin> | But wouldn't the natural scope be both the then *and* else blocks? |
| 20:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: neither do I. This may be the first time. |
| 20:07 | < McMartin> | That bar block is inside the if's else block. |
| 20:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...that is actually a good question. |
| 20:08 | < McMartin> | (And indeed, if it is, then in the else block, foo is guaranteed to be NULL, because that's what the if clause is checking) |
| 20:13 | | * ToxicFrog accidentally writes a test case that asserts that 4.0/3.0 == 1.0 |
| 20:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | (under C++ floating point math) |
| 20:14 | < Mahal> | I almost want you to share this abomination so I can pass it on to dev friends |
| 20:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which, the test case or the ifelse tree? |
| 20:18 | | * McMartin does a test himself |
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| 20:18 | < McMartin> | Yes, declaring in the if clause extends to both then and else |
| 20:18 | < McMartin> | And "else if" is not a special form in C or C++ |
| 20:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, this all makes sense, so to speak, when explained thusly |
| 20:19 | < McMartin> | Also, C forbids this even at C99 standards compliance |
| 20:20 | < McMartin> | (While declaring in a for is accepted at C99 and the "gnu89" half-99.) |
| 20:20 | < McMartin> | Presented without comment |
| 20:20 | < McMartin> | gcc: error: unrecognized command line option ‘--std=ansi’; did you mean ‘--std=gnu’? |
| 20:21 | < Mahal> | ToxicFrog: whatever you did that means 4/3=1 |
| 20:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Mahal: it's not particularly interesting |
| 20:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Just, as part of a big pile of simple math test cases, `TestCase("", "4.0 / 3.0", "1.0")` |
| 20:23 | < simon_> | hrm. is it uncommon in C#/Java to start your constructors (or methods) with assertions that throw if they're not true? |
| 20:23 | < simon_> | I mean, ideally I can't express a wrong value using my type, but since the type systems aren't that flexible, I might want to throw if something is null and shouldn't be. |
| 20:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | And under the hood the evaluator does something like: lhs = ParseAndFoldConstants(strcat(\1, \2)); rhs = Parse(\3); assert lhs == rhs; |
| 20:23 | < McMartin> | simon: I don't know about C#, but that is extremely common in Java |
| 20:24 | < McMartin> | However, they are usually RuntimeExceptions, unless construction is doing something Very Significant. |
| 20:24 | < McMartin> | simon_: See, for example: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/io/FileInputStream.html#FileInputStream(java.io.File) |
| 20:24 | < simon_> | McMartin, I just can't find any libraries (built-in or otherwise) that add this functionality in C#. I'd have thought there'd be a standard way to do it, but I can only find Debug.Assert that, by nature, is disabled in production. |
| 20:24 | < McMartin> | Oh, you mean *specifically* with "Assert" |
| 20:25 | < McMartin> | I think the idiom is that "if (arg2 >= arg1.length) { throw new IllegalArgumentException(); } or w/e is the idiom there |
| 20:25 | < simon_> | McMartin, I don't care what it's called. my old job had its own C# library with various stuff that looked very much like https://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/2.5.x/javadoc-api/org/springframework/util/Assert.html |
| 20:26 | < McMartin> | It's not a debug assert; checking the argument and throwing if it's bad is part of the spec, so it's part of the "mainline" code. |
| 20:26 | < simon_> | McMartin, oh. I just prefer the syntax Assert.IsNotNull(foo, ...); Assert.SomeDescriptivePredicate(..., "because reasons"); |
| 20:27 | < McMartin> | That is the thing, I think, that is uncommon |
| 20:27 | < simon_> | I can find http://fluentassertions.com/ , but that's a way to express unit test assertions. |
| 20:27 | < simon_> | ok. |
| 20:27 | < McMartin> | Indeed, C#'s own "construct a file stream object" throws nine different kinds of exceptions: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/47ek66wy(v=vs.110).aspx |
| 20:27 | < simon_> | heh. |
| 20:27 | < McMartin> | But I think the common expectation is that 'assert' specifically means 'extra checks for debugging mode' |
| 20:28 | < McMartin> | Of which unit tests definitely count |
| 20:28 | < simon_> | right. |
| 20:28 | < McMartin> | If somebody might call you with bad data, that is notionally something to be checked *all the time*, and thus it isn't an 'assert' in that sense. |
| 20:28 | < simon_> | I'll encourage one to write one's own library like springfamework's util.Assert, then. |
| 20:28 | < simon_> | and perhaps call it something with "check" to avoid disagreeing with C# terminologists. |
| 20:31 | < McMartin> | This paper was linked to me today, and it seems like it might be of interest to those here of a more IT than dev bent: http://marc.merlins.org/linux/talks/ProdNG-LC2013-JP/Paper/ProdNG.pdf |
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| 20:54 | <&[R]> | simon_: he was bad for a few reasons. Some choice quotes "I don't need you to think, I need you to do." "The auditors are not the people who decide if we are certificed or not, I am" |
| 20:54 | < simon_> | [R], >_< |
| 20:55 | <&[R]> | He's also the guy who thought that 17kLoC of JS was fine, and the fact that each new menu option was 1kLoC (and he wanted /thousands/ of them) was fine too. |
| 20:55 | <&[R]> | 17KLoC of /generated/ JS BTW |
| 20:55 | < McMartin> | That makes it slightly less awful~ |
| 20:56 | <&[R]> | And he was all "why are you removing my templates to generate JS? It's perfectly clear what everything does." "You have a file called end.tpl that contains whitespace and three closing curly brackets..." |
| 20:57 | <&[R]> | Anyways, BBL: driving home |
| 21:04 | <~Vornotron> | [R]: burn him down |
| 21:04 | <~Vornotron> | though I do wonder what the entire fuck he was doing with 1kLoC *per menu option* |
| 21:29 | < Degi> | >When your web page takes 10 MB of JS to load |
| 21:31 | < McMartin> | I remember being concerned about one of my old pages being, like, a meg of static HTML and being told that I didn't need to bother with code to split it up because that's less that the foundation code everywhere else |
| 21:32 | < workeegs> | i weep for modern development. |
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| 21:33 | < McMartin> | (Also that I shouldn't care because it was only going to be a few hundred if not actually a few *tens* of KB when sent compressed over the wire) |
| 21:34 | < McMartin> | Meanwhile, my hobby project is all the way up to 584 bytes |
| 21:35 | < McMartin> | Not sure if the final result will fit in 1KB, but it will definitely fit in 2 |
| 21:35 | < McMartin> | (And then need to be padded to many times its original size to actually run, but multiple kilobytes of the same value do in fact compress real well) |
| 21:46 | | himi [sjjf@Nightstar-1drtbs.anu.edu.au] has joined #code |
| 21:46 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 21:57 | <&[R]> | More stuff: He was vehemently against source control, also didn't like me trying to do TDD, or even try to plan my day. |
| 21:58 | <@himi> | That's a hell of a line to walk in on |
| 21:58 | <&[R]> | <Vornotron> though I do wonder what the entire fuck he was doing with 1kLoC *per menu option* <-- PHP templates generating JS. I could've fixed it without removing the templates, but they were a WTF themselves, so they had to go. |
| 21:59 | <&[R]> | Oh Vorn left |
| 22:00 | < workeegs> | RIP Vorn |
| 22:00 | <&[R]> | himi: http://blog.nobl.ca/tmp.txt (don't bother going to the root, I haven't fixed it yet) |
| 22:02 | <&[R]> | I've actually a two page letter somewhere of all my frustrations with him. This was before the "don't think" quote though |
| 22:05 | <&[R]> | Also I may have slightly exagerated. The menu options were only like 850LoC. The 17kLoC figgure is correct though. |
| 22:08 | <&[R]> | I'll admit I was green on that job. But I'm pretty sure I was the lesser WTF there. |
| 22:13 | <&[R]> | Oh and, the CEO had made some contracts where we had a 100% SLA... yet I couldn't convince my boss to let me setup load balancing for our core system in the entire 18 months I was there? |
| 22:13 | <&[R]> | Like, he fought me tooth and nail on every. single. step. |
| 22:14 | <&[R]> | I wasn't allowed to get existing documentation for systems, nor was I allowed to write new ones (because we have documentation for that.) |
| 22:15 | <&[R]> | I had zero self-esteem by the time I finally quit |
| 22:15 | <&[R]> | :/ |
| 22:15 | <&[R]> | In 2010 if anyone wants to match that up with the timeline of other things. |
| 22:15 | <&[R]> | Anyways, sorry for ranting here |
| 22:34 | <&[R]> | For those curious about the letter: http://blog.nobl.ca/annoy.clean.txt |
| 22:39 | <&[R]> | Also, sorry, but this one's actually a security issue. After I left, I was still recieving system alerts. During my exit interview, he had asked what needed to be done to close all my access to the systems (they had terminated most of my access already). I told him the steps over skype (the text-chat portion), and had also emailed them to him. I emailed them to him again week later because I was still recieving alerts. Then again a month later for the same |
| 22:39 | <&[R]> | reason. Then every one-two weeks for a month, with occasional phone calls to him. Eventually I had to call the CEO and explain this was affecting my sleep (because it would buzz at midnight and such). CEO was /PISSED/ at him. Boss asked me the next day for the instructions again... |
| 22:42 | <&[R]> | Instructions weren't hard either: edit file removing my emails, run command (no arguments to it either) |
| 22:43 | | Jessikat [Jessikat@Nightstar-bt5k4h.81.in-addr.arpa] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 22:43 | < workeegs> | nice. |
| 22:49 | <&[R]> | Yeah... |
| 22:49 | <&[R]> | I should've left much sooner than I did |
| 22:49 | <&[R]> | CEO was a great guy though :/ |
| 22:50 | < workeegs> | fairly large company? |
| 22:50 | | Degi [Degi@Nightstar-othrpl.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 22:50 | <&[R]> | Nope. |
| 22:50 | <&[R]> | The annoy.txt file has a company employee list in its censored entirety |
| 22:50 | <&[R]> | (4 peeps) |
| 22:52 | < workeegs> | oh no |
| 22:52 | < workeegs> | calling yourself the "CTO" of a company that has two non-executive employees... |
| 22:52 | < workeegs> | :| |
| 22:53 | <&[R]> | Whoa there man |
| 22:53 | <&[R]> | Whoa there. |
| 22:53 | <&[R]> | He was called the CTO before I signed on. Other guy was signed on after I was. |
| 22:53 | < workeegs> | Sorry, I meant [boss]. |
| 22:54 | < workeegs> | Seems a bit self-aggrandizing. |
| 22:54 | <&[R]> | I think it was the CEO that was responsible for that |
| 22:54 | < workeegs> | I mean, maybe technically accurate. |
| 22:54 | <&[R]> | But I was never sure. |
| 22:55 | <&[R]> | At least it was an endless fountain of life lessons. |
| 22:55 | <&[R]> | None of them were spoken unfortunately. |
| 22:56 | < workeegs> | they rarely are. |
| 23:34 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| --- Log closed Fri Jan 19 00:00:32 2018 |