| --- Log opened Sun Jan 14 00:00:26 2018 |
| 00:03 | | gnolam_ is now known as gnolam |
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| 00:58 | <@himi> | . . . that's a pretty one-eyed description of systemd . . . |
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| 01:16 | | * [R] hasn't run it on any system for longer than a week (when testing a distro) |
| 01:16 | <&[R]> | So I don't have anything first hand |
| 01:16 | <&[R]> | See #1 |
| 01:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Conversely, I've been running it on all my machines for years, it's great, sysvinit delenda est |
| 01:35 | <&[R]> | Heard the exact same thing about PulseAudio. Yet when it breaks, it breaks hard, and its non-standard evocation is beyond retarded |
| 01:38 | <@himi> | I recall the beautiful, exceptionally clean, easy to use and wonderfully reliable OSS and ALSA that came before . . . |
| 01:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've had more problems with PA than I have had with systemd (or any of the related things like journald that systemd's detractors all lump under "systemd" whenever it's convenient for them), but despite that it's still dramatically better than both of the systems it replaced (OSS and ALSA) |
| 01:39 | <&[R]> | I wouldn't call PulseAudio clean or easy to use either. |
| 01:39 | <&[R]> | And I've had no issues with ALSA |
| 01:39 | <@himi> | Well, PulseAudio typically /uses/ ALSA, but separating the userspace issues of ALSA from the underlying kernel code was definitely a great idea |
| 01:40 | <@himi> | PulseAudio isn't wonderful, but I recall having to hand-hack an ALSA config just to be able to mix more than one application's sound together into my single set of output speakers |
| 01:41 | <&[R]> | Yet stuff like that just works usually. |
| 01:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha |
| 01:41 | <&[R]> | Only time I've had issues with ALSA is when the kernel wasn't built properly |
| 01:41 | <&[R]> | Which I'm more keen to blame on not configuring the kernel correctly |
| 01:41 | <@himi> | Two points in response there |
| 01:42 | <@himi> | Firstly, ALSA may do that stuff /now/, but this is more than fifteen years after it was introduced, and for much of that time it's been operating almost entirely underneath PulseAudio |
| 01:43 | <@himi> | Secondly, PulseAudio does a hell of a lot more than ALSA does - being able to switch cleanly between using a USB headset for audio in/out when I start up a video conference client, for example |
| 01:44 | <@himi> | Want to demonstrate how to do that in any way cleanly with ALSA? |
| 01:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I don't think I've ever used a plain-ALSA system where one could claim that it "just works" with a straight face, across four different distros |
| 01:44 | <&[R]> | Honestly, I have speakers and that's it |
| 01:44 | <@himi> | So, you have a very simple use case and hence haven't hit the issues |
| 01:44 | <@himi> | The /vast/ majority of people using systemd have never hit the issues that people rant about |
| 01:44 | <&[R]> | Right, yet I've had issues with Pulse |
| 01:44 | <@himi> | The vast /vast/ majority |
| 01:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | And that's just "I have speakers and a microphone", not even my current setup where it's "I have speakers and a microphone and sometimes headphones and sometimes a completely different sound card that appears and vanishes and has its own inputs and outputs", all of which, BTW, pulseaudio handles flawlessly. |
| 01:45 | <@himi> | Otherwise it wouldn't be well on its way to being the standard init system on Linux |
| 01:45 | <@himi> | TF: USB headsets present that way, don't they? |
| 01:46 | <@himi> | Oh, and I've got /multiple/ USB audio devices, given my webcam presents as a USB audio device |
| 01:46 | <@himi> | PulseAudio has flaws, but it does a much bigger and much more complex job than any of the alternatives |
| 01:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | himi: yep -- the USB part has an itty bitty soundcard in it |
| 01:49 | <@himi> | A better comparison than ALSA would be something like JACK, which /does/ attempt to provide a much higher level system, and while it's a wonderful tool it's a massive pain in the arse to use compared to PulseAudio |
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| 10:24 | < Vornlicious> | Things I ponder: how different can you get two functions whose Fourier Transforms have the same magnitudes but different phases to sound |
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| 19:25 | < Mahal> | Favourite Reddit comment on Meltdown/Spectre so far: A CPU predicts you will walk into a bar, but you do not. Your credit card information has been stolen from the chair you were going to sit in. |
| 19:30 | <&[R]> | Ha |
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| 22:10 | <&[R]> | Ah thanks vsftpd, your logging capabilities are impressive |
| 22:11 | <&[R]> | I never knew that logging errors was so wasteful. I am enlightened. |
| 22:11 | <&[R]> | Now speak, why do you not allow remote hosts on the same network to download files? |
| 22:18 | <@Tamber> | "Don't feel like it." |
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| 23:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's trying to save you from the vale of tears that is FTP |
| 23:05 | <&[R]> | I guess |
| 23:05 | <&[R]> | This is a temporary setup though. I guess I should setup http instead |
| 23:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, if it lets other hosts connect and list files but not PUT or GET, if it's in active mode you are probably missing a port 20 related firewall rule and if it's in passive mode you'll need to make sure whatever ports it allocates for passive transfer are open |
| 23:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | (or if you have port 20 outbound open but the clients have restrictive firewalls that'll also interfere with active mode) |
| 23:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, if you just need clients to be able to fetch files, use http |
| 23:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | Setting up nginx, lighttpd, or thttpd to serve a directory is really simple |
| 23:19 | <&[R]> | Apparently it works fine, pacman can fetch from it without issue |
| 23:19 | <&[R]> | lftp's the issue |
| 23:19 | <&[R]> | lftp can't even get from sftp |
| 23:21 | <&[R]> | It'll be so nice once I get all this working and can trivially rebuild every host so I don't have this mismash of broken things |
| 23:21 | < McMartin> | ISTR that I couldn't get lftp to work for me and I had to install filezilla :( |
| 23:21 | <&[R]> | Weird |
| 23:21 | <&[R]> | lftp was my workhorse for the longest time |
| 23:21 | <&[R]> | But it might have something to do with that system having a broken libstdc++ |
| 23:22 | <&[R]> | (The hardware was /very/ picky about what it would boot and I had to do hackish things to get an install on there in the first place.) |
| 23:22 | < McMartin> | Yeah, I dunno |
| 23:23 | < McMartin> | This was a case of just trying to securely transfer some files point-to-point, so it could also be some finickiness of my client vs their server |
| 23:23 | < McMartin> | Whatever it was, swapping my client to Filezilla Just Worked, so it can't have been anything deep-system level. |
| 23:23 | <&[R]> | Hmm |
| 23:24 | | * [R] actually had a point where he had production stuff that relied on lftp scripts |
| 23:24 | <@Tamber> | (re: lftp... have you done the dance of setting 'ftp:ssl-protect-data true', and all that malarkey?) |
| 23:24 | < McMartin> | I also have no reason to believe that this is more generally true though other than "apparently some versions of Filezilla are more robust than lftp" |
| 23:24 | <&[R]> | Not ftps |
| 23:24 | < McMartin> | Oh hm, does lftp do sftp at all? I thought it didn't. |
| 23:24 | <&[R]> | lftp does sftp |
| 23:24 | <&[R]> | Also does torrents |
| 23:24 | < McMartin> | Sorry, my experience *was* ftps; it was choking partway through the SSL negotiations |
| 23:25 | < McMartin> | (Well, OK, TLS, but you know) |
| 23:25 | <&[R]> | Yeah, my scripts were ftps too (huzzah passing around banking transactions via ftps) |
| 23:25 | < McMartin> | Whoof. Yeah, my stuff was also lower-danger ;-) |
| 23:25 | < McMartin> | "Merely" PII |
| --- Log closed Mon Jan 15 00:00:27 2018 |