| --- Log opened Sat Jan 06 00:00:30 2018 |
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| 01:29 | | * McMartin finds some more templated functions that are much longer than they need to be, cuts them down to size |
| 01:31 | <&McMartin> | Sadly, this time I could not turn them all into one-liners. |
| 01:52 | < Degi> | I mean you can remove the newlines since the ; act as line separators, right? |
| 01:52 | <@celticminstrel> | I want to get down to creating a game (ideally in C++, but open to alternatives), but I don't want to deal with all the details of rendering and stuff. I want to focus on the mechanics. Also, I don't want something that won't work on Mac (which may rule out eg RPG Maker). |
| 01:53 | <@celticminstrel> | Kinda feel like the simplest solution is to do very basic top-down rendering with SDL/SFML and take care to never access mechanical stuff from the rendering code. |
| 01:53 | <@celticminstrel> | But maybe there's something better. |
| 01:53 | < Degi> | Unity? |
| 01:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, that's more built for 3D games though, but I guess it's an option. |
| 01:54 | <@celticminstrel> | (Also, I'm not clear whether you can use C++ in Unity, as opposed to C#.) |
| 01:54 | < Degi> | You definitely can, since some addons use that. Although in a compiled dll. |
| 01:54 | <@celticminstrel> | I did briefly try out Unity. |
| 01:57 | <@celticminstrel> | Probably won't actually be working on a Mac FTR, since it's become a huge pain to have both Xcode and Firefox open simultaneously. |
| 01:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Unity/Unreal are quite large engines, which is a little off-putting. |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | GameMaker Studio 2 runs on Mac these days. |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | That's a tier above RPG maker and a tier below Unity, but it's what was used for, e.g., Heat Signature, Undertale, Gunpoint, and Hotline Miami. |
| 02:02 | <&[R]> | celticminstrel: Sphere? |
| 02:02 | <&[R]> | Or pygame? |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | I never did get around to finishing Monocle's design. |
| 02:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Sphere? |
| 02:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Not pygame, I could never get it to work. |
| 02:05 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, GameMaker runs on Mac, huh... I don't suppose it can be tried for free though, unlike Unity/Unreal... |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | It used to have a free version, but that was three major editions ago |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | Let's see here |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | Seems like there's a "free trial" link. |
| 02:07 | <@celticminstrel> | ISTR this being available on Steam or Humble or both... or am I thinking of RPG Maker? |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | Studio 1 was on Steam and Humble |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | I dunno about 2. |
| 02:07 | <@celticminstrel> | Hmm, free trial. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | 1's free trial was nicer |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | And pre-Studio was nicer still |
| 02:07 | <@celticminstrel> | If it's time-limited it might be okay. If it's "you can't save your work" it's fairly useless. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | I think they noticed that they were selling something that competed with stuff 10x their cost. |
| 02:08 | <&[R]> | http://www.spheredev.org/ |
| 02:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah, JavaScript. |
| 02:09 | <@celticminstrel> | I've done games in JavaScript before, and it is kinda nice in some ways, I guess... |
| 02:09 | <&[R]> | This is without the webbrowser though |
| 02:10 | <&[R]> | So notably different API |
| 02:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, is there no browser involved at all then? |
| 02:11 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm trying to remember what were the things I liked about JS that Lua didn't have... pretty sure there was at least one thing... |
| 02:11 | <@celticminstrel> | JS doesn't have operator overloading last I checked though. |
| 02:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Anyway I guess Sphere is worth checking out. |
| 02:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Not great that the IDE is Windows-only, but I did say I'd be working on Windows anyway, so not a game-breaker. |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | I've tried to fiddle with Haxe once or twice but it never did anything for me |
| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | ...OCaml. I don't even know what that is. |
| 02:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh wait, Haxe is actually a language? |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Eh. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | OCaml is the most practical of the languages in the ML family, which informed Haskell and Rust among many others. |
| 02:43 | <@celticminstrel> | ...GIMP is displaying missing character glyphs in the zoom popup. o.O |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | It's where That Kind Of Type Inference made itts debut. |
| 02:43 | <@himi> | OCaml is more practical than standard ML? |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | It seems to have greater industry penetration, and it's had the best native-code compilers for many years |
| 02:45 | <@himi> | I thought SML was as good on the native code generation side |
| 02:45 | | * himi hasn't kept track of OCaml for a while, though |
| 02:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Sphere is making a poor initial impression, on the basis of things not working as they're presumably supposed to... |
| 02:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Like an exception when attempting to import a tileset, and an OK button disabled for no apparent reason. |
| 02:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Ehhh, GMS has tiers. :| |
| 02:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Might try it anyway just to see how it goes, but... |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | The Tiers, ANAICT, are basically output modules. |
| 02:51 | <@celticminstrel> | And Nintendo consoles don't seem to even be mentioned. |
| 02:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Though I didn't look at the details, so maybe they are. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | If you went professional with it you would never get anything other than the $99 desktop level. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | Are you explicitly intending to target Switch or 3DS? |
| 02:51 | <@celticminstrel> | No, I'd want to release on Steam I guess. |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | That would be the perpetual desktop license, which is tri-platform. |
| 02:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Hmm. |
| 02:54 | | * McMartin mostly uses Studio 1 as a prototyping tool these days. |
| 03:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have generally been happy with love2d and it meets your requirements (cross platform, MIT license, nice API for 2d stuff) but you will have to write the rendering yourself, it doesn |
| 03:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | 't come with a canned tile renderer or anything. |
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| 03:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | (although someone else may have written a library for that you could use) |
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| 03:25 | < Jessikat> | So apparently I'm now into reading about old PC game programming tricks |
| 03:25 | < Jessikat> | Suddenly a lot of the old Allegro 4 API makes a lot more sense to me |
| 03:29 | <&[R]> | Allegro is nice |
| 03:29 | <&[R]> | Or was nice 9 years ago (haven't touched modern instances of it) |
| 03:30 | < Jessikat> | Yeah, it was an awesome API and library when I first started coding in early 2000s |
| 03:31 | < Jessikat> | But I've always felt like 5.0 ruined the nice neat API |
| 03:31 | < Jessikat> | It used to be a lot more immediate mode and that made it a lot more obtuse imo |
| 03:32 | < Jessikat> | I'd love to set something like the original Allegro API for modern gaming sensibilities |
| 03:32 | < Jessikat> | Unreal and Unity serve a really nice niche of the market in providing tools for users to build games but I'm not sure how friendly they are to folk who want to build our expand engine capabilities |
| 03:33 | < Jessikat> | I should actually try using them and looking at code, heg |
| 03:33 | < Jessikat> | Heh* |
| 03:33 | < Jessikat> | I've been stuck in our codebase way too long x) |
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| 03:36 | < Jessikat`> | Dangit |
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| 03:37 | <@celticminstrel> | I think if I were doing 3D stuff I'd be more likely to choose Unreal/Unity. |
| 03:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Unreal is huge though. Presumably Unity is as well. |
| 03:37 | <@celticminstrel> | And there's a lot of stuff that's irrelevant for 2D games. |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, love2d is Lua. |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | I do like Lua as a scripting language, perhaps marginally better than JS. |
| 03:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Pretty sure there was at least one or two things I preferred about JS, but I can't remember what they were. |
| 03:42 | <@celticminstrel> | It's not entirely clear what advantage love2d has over just using Lua directly with an SDL/SFML renderer, though, and as an open-source project I doubt its documentation is any good. |
| 03:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Seems like the idea is to write the entire project in Lua, which I guess isn't bad, exactly... |
| 03:43 | <@celticminstrel> | But that probably means no custom userdata types... not sure how much that matters, but still. |
| 03:45 | < Jessikat`> | Lua is a lovely language for writing latent code that looks sequential but acts over multiple frames |
| 03:45 | | Jessikat` is now known as Jessikat |
| 03:46 | < Jessikat> | So in game contexts you can write linear scripts much more easily than in C/C++ generally speaking |
| 03:46 | < Jessikat> | It also abstracts most of the machinery away which is nice |
| 03:47 | < Jessikat> | I would describe Lua as essentially a fixed JS at this point |
| 03:47 | <@celticminstrel> | One thing love2d would almost certainly be good for is porting my old GameMaker games. |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | (This GameMaker has no relation to Game Maker Studio.) |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess you're referring to closures or coroutiners or something. |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | I wish I could remember what it was that I preferred about JS though. |
| 03:49 | < Jessikat> | Yeah, coroutines |
| 03:49 | < Jessikat> | Love2d is something TF pointed me at as well |
| 03:49 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess coroutines are a bit nicer than tons of nested closures (which is how you'd do it in JS). |
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| 03:52 | <@celticminstrel> | ...there is however this somewhat awkward thing where love2d requires OSX 10.7+ while GameMaker only works up to 10.6. |
| 03:53 | <@celticminstrel> | Which means a reboot if I want to try using it for porting those. |
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| 07:25 | | * McMartin fiddles more with Game Boy devkit |
| 07:25 | <&McMartin> | It may be easier to compile C on, but the Sharp LR35902 is incredibly obnoxious to program directly otherwise, compared to the Z80. |
| 07:42 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 07:57 | | * McMartin finishes drafting his Life automaton, which weighs in at 212 bytes of code for the state-update logic and 33 for initialization. |
| 07:57 | <&McMartin> | Not too bad. |
| 08:11 | < Vornlicious> | Nice |
| 08:24 | <&[R]> | <celticminstrel> I guess coroutines are a bit nicer than tons of nested closures (which is how you'd do it in JS). <-- you'd use Promises instead now |
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| 12:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | celmin|sleep: coroutines are way nicer than dozens of nested closures. |
| 12:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | The documentation is, in fact, quite good, at least for love2d proper (for physics it basically hands you the box2d manual and says "good luck") |
| 12:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | And the advantage over "using lua directly with an SDL renderer" is that this gets you all the lua integration for free and, frankly, a nicer API than SDL (and you can still dip into C/++ if you need to) |
| 12:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | (that and you get premade binaries for all supported platforms rather than needing to set up your own cross-compilers and stuff) |
| 12:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | I didn't know that it needs OSX 10.7 or later, although older versions of love2d presumably support older versions of OSX if you're willing to drop android and iOS support (which is quite recent) |
| 12:38 | < Vornlicious> | My favorite but about love is that the deploy script is literally zip cat |
| 12:40 | < Vornlicious> | Well that and I don't have to write an event loop myself |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jan 07 00:00:32 2018 |