| --- Log opened Mon Jan 01 00:00:18 2018 |
| 00:22 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 00:51 | | * McMartin finishes creating the C64 disk image |
| 00:51 | | * McMartin heads over to the RPi so he can create the final zip file |
| 00:51 | | * McMartin says incompletely-audible things about the perfidy of filesystems with semantically important metadata tags. |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | On the plus side, at least Unix zip/unzip understand them. |
| 00:52 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 00:54 | <@himi> | The C64 filesystem was one such beast, McMartin? |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Well, kind of, but it's not the problematic one, because those files are distributed as disk images anyway. |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | It's the Acorn filesystem that's the issue here. |
| 00:55 | <@himi> | Ah |
| 00:55 | <@himi> | I forgot your RPi was running RISC OS |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | (C64 also isn't a problematic one because the only thing it *really* tracks is "executable" and emulators just treat everything not from a disk image as having that bit set) |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | ADFS has more extensive notions of file type that need to be preserved, but it turns out ZIP has fields precisely for this. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | At least they aren't resource forks. |
| 00:58 | | macdjord is now known as macdjord|out |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | That RPi also runs Raspbian, but I didn't do anything fun with Raspbian that wouldn't work just as well on any other Linux system on Bumbershoot this year. |
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| 02:05 | | * McMartin finishes up his archiving, and also figures out how to make it work in emulation. |
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| 03:22 | | * [R] stares at /var/run/log |
| 03:23 | <&[R]> | Whyyyyyyyyyy |
| 03:23 | <~Vornicus> | ? |
| 03:24 | <&[R]> | It's redundant and not even a symlink |
| 03:24 | <&[R]> | Also empty |
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| 03:28 | <&[R]> | Given everyone's "let's merge /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin" I'm baffled to as why they'd have two locations for logs. |
| 03:30 | <@himi> | /var/run is supposed to be a tmpfs mount, isn't it? |
| 03:30 | <&[R]> | Is it? |
| 03:30 | <&[R]> | It's a symlink to /run here |
| 03:30 | <@himi> | Yeah, and /run is definitely a tmpfs mount on this system |
| 03:32 | <&McMartin> | 2017 Bumbershoot Bullshit compiled and posted. https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2018/01/01/2017-compilation-and-review/ |
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| 08:55 | <&McMartin> | jerith: You need to resubmit your solutions to Opus Magnum: Something about how area is computed has changed. |
| 08:55 | <&McMartin> | But even after that, I believe you have some work to do on Voltaic Coil. :) |
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| 08:56 | <&jerith> | Thanks for letting me know. :-) |
| 08:57 | <&McMartin> | (I believe the new change is that "infinite" products now only charge the area for the amount of product checked, and it used to be much more.) |
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| 08:57 | <&McMartin> | (In particular, Sword Alloy, and Golden/Dark thread were both cases where suddenly I took the lead with no change.) |
| 09:02 | <&jerith> | Oh, hey. Tarinaky's showing up in my histograms now. |
| 09:03 | <&McMartin> | one of us, one of us |
| 09:03 | <&jerith> | ... and has beaten us in Surrender Flare. |
| 09:03 | <&jerith> | Also a few others. |
| 09:06 | <&McMartin> | I've solved a few more production cabinets, and I've got the occasional speed or succinctness advantage on you |
| 09:06 | <&McMartin> | You are consistently beating me on cost though. |
| 09:07 | | * McMartin says a variety of unkind things about Special Amaro. |
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| 09:58 | <&McMartin> | ... a lot of work on Voltaic Coil. :) |
| 09:58 | <&McMartin> | I'm beating top percentile on both speed and area now. |
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| 10:07 | <&McMartin> | And that's pulling a limiting reagent at the maximum possible speed, so I don't think I'm going to get that one any faster. |
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| 10:10 | < Vorntastic> | I remember one spacechem level where I pulled one reagent so fast that if it'd asked for more than 40 I'd have crashed it |
| 10:11 | < Vorntastic> | Something like 13/2 cycles per output |
| 10:14 | <&McMartin> | Opus Magnum has more aggressive limiters, for the most part |
| 10:15 | <&McMartin> | Reagents take up space on your grid all the time, and are there for the taking unless you have taken it and haven't cleared it yet. |
| 10:15 | <&McMartin> | So the maximum speed you can consume any individual reagent component is once every two cycles. |
| 10:15 | <&McMartin> | For this particular one (Voltaic Coil) there is only one metal input and I'm consuming it at max speed. |
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| 10:16 | <&McMartin> | Which in turn means that the steady state cannot possibly be improved. Any gains are going to be in time-to-first-product-created, and apparently I edged a cycle of the top-percentile score there. |
| 10:17 | <&McMartin> | But OM solutions tend to be a lot more, hrm, parallel than SpaceChem ones. |
| 10:17 | <&McMartin> | It's got a lot more of an assembly line feel to it. |
| 10:17 | <&McMartin> | And lots and lots of partial products are continuously in flight, because your waldoes generally are fixed in place and hand bits off to other ones. |
| 10:18 | < Vornlicious> | Yeah, spacechem did that for synthesis puzzles and had 1/10 steps in the production ones |
| 10:18 | <&McMartin> | I don't understand that sentence |
| 10:19 | <&Reiver> | If I tried and bounced off SpaceChem, am I likely to find any satisfaction in Opus Magnum? |
| 10:19 | <&McMartin> | I remember SpaceChem would block if you tried to input from an empty pipe or output into a full one |
| 10:19 | <&McMartin> | Reiver: That's going to depend a lot on why you bounced off SpaceChem. |
| 10:20 | < Vornlicious> | The limiters; you can always use in alpha on synthesis (single reactor) puzzles; on production puzzles the pipes get loaded once every ten cycles |
| 10:20 | <&McMartin> | If it was because it's ugly or because Defense missions were beyond your patience, then OM is both pretty and has no time pressure whatsoever |
| 10:21 | <&McMartin> | If it is because programming games are homework assignments, well |
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| 10:21 | <&McMartin> | It hides it a little better than TIS-100 or Shenzhen I/O |
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| 10:22 | <&McMartin> | gnolam's objection was that all the puzzles eventually become routing puzzles, but I found it didn't do that until the *very* end and maybe not even until the postgame because your build grid is almost infinite. |
| 10:23 | <&McMartin> | OTOH, if "move stuff from a to b" is routing puzzle, then that's everything |
| 10:26 | < Vornlicious> | The puzzle in question needed two of a particular reagent for every three outputs, so 19.5 cycles to consume 20 cycles of stuff is pretty tight. |
| 10:26 | <&jerith> | Reiver: I bounced off SpaceChem and loved Opus Magnum. |
| 10:27 | <&McMartin> | To date SpaceChem is the only Zachtronics game where I've beaten the postgame, but I think OM will be #2 there unless I get thwarted *unusually* hard. |
| 10:28 | <&Reiver> | Fair |
| 10:28 | <&Reiver> | It is certainly the prettier. |
| 10:28 | < Vornlicious> | I still haven't finished spacechem |
| 10:28 | <&McMartin> | Also exports as gif instead of .ogv or whatever the fuck it was Spacechem used |
| 10:31 | < Vornlicious> | I'm kind of frustrated by spacechem's lack of multiple save states |
| 10:31 | <&McMartin> | Oh yeah you get four slots per puzzle in OM |
| 10:31 | <&McMartin> | That started at TIS-100 at the latest |
| 10:37 | <&jerith> | I have more than four slots for some of my puzzles. |
| 10:38 | <&McMartin> | For me it's generally "FUNCTION" "SPEED" "COST" "AREA" and a scratch slot that was probably originally FUNCTION. |
| 10:38 | <&jerith> | Just confirmed: six slots used in one of them. |
| 10:38 | <&jerith> | I think you get an arbitrary number, like in Shenzhen I/O. |
| 10:40 | <&jerith> | Ooh, yeah. I have a *lot* of work to do in Voltaic Coil. |
| 10:41 | <&jerith> | I've been bumped off the top in all three sections. |
| 10:42 | <&McMartin> | Really, I should be working on the Infinifactory Eye Drops. |
| 10:42 | <&McMartin> | But I'm going to bed. |
| 10:42 | <&jerith> | I should get back to Infinifactory at some point. |
| 10:42 | <&McMartin> | Oh, I mean the, uh, eyedrop of revelation |
| 10:43 | <&McMartin> | Because my take on the description is that it made the inventor see Infinifactory in the future. |
| 10:43 | <&jerith> | Oh, that one. |
| 10:43 | <&jerith> | I read it as "he saw into *our* world". |
| 10:43 | <&jerith> | Which is basically Infinifactory. |
| 10:45 | <&McMartin> | WIthout the alien overlords, mostly. |
| 10:46 | <@TheWatcher> | Probably~ |
| 10:47 | <&jerith> | Have you *seen* the current crop of world leaders? |
| 10:50 | <&McMartin> | Do I look like David Icke to you |
| 11:01 | <@Alek> | Our current crop of world leaders certainly is Icke, yes. :P |
| 11:04 | <&McMartin> | LIZARD PEOPLE, DEAR READERS |
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| 11:56 | <&jerith> | Two cycles behind. |
| 11:56 | | * jerith leaves that for now, moves on to other metrics. |
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| 12:37 | <&jerith> | Yay, done. |
| 12:37 | <&jerith> | Now I guess I need to optimise some production puzzles. |
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| 15:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Woooooo patch accepted |
| 15:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you use koreader, the next daily should have working calibre wireless sync again. |
| 16:00 | <&jerith> | \o/ |
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| 21:12 | <&McMartin> | I have just been handed the following set of scurrilous rumors and enjoyed them enough to share: http://pythonsweetness.tumblr.com/post/169166980422/the-mysterious-case-of-the-linux-page-table |
| 21:29 | <@Tamber> | Well, that is interesting indeed. It'll prove to be even more interesting when the truth comes out. |
| 21:30 | <@Tamber> | (I do like a bit of intrigue~) |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | I think the author's favorite guess is also mine; a way for EC2-like VMs to be able to get access to their cousins by suborning hypervisor code. |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | That's also about the only threat model that would justify disabling the TLB~ |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | https://i.redditmedia.com/CX-lD7KcNS9R-mnGTTTHi9m3W4LUqVtfXLdY5MDtHfo.jpg?w=600&s=5b0687c5cefaa57d1d8a540b15f0e6cd |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | ("It's because they swapped two and three") |
| 21:35 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | ("Since when is there a step 5?" "That's 'by the app store'.") |
| 21:36 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 21:40 | <&McMartin> | It is kind of interesting how basically nothing is a "program" anymore. |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | And thinking about it more, the closest thing you do with computer instructions these days that look like a 'program/programme' in the non-computer sense we've been calling "scripts" since at least the 1970s. |
| 21:41 | <&[R]> | How you you reason that? |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | They're all "apps" or "skills" or "services" |
| 21:41 | <@TheWatcher> | "skills", seriously? O.o |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | The act of writing them is "coding", though that I got to watch happen and accept that this is an outsider community's terminology taking over. |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: Those are the modules that Alexa loads, yes. |
| 21:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Huh. I guess that makes a kind of sense. |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | The migration away from the term "program" seems to coincide with the migration away from computing as "the manual allocation and commanding-to-execute of statically linked executables" |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | And the remaining consumer use case for those always calls them "apps" and if I'm being fair that's an obvious abbreviation of "application program" |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | I do not deny that the application/service distinction is kind of important |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | But it also seems like there are really very few cases anymore where a coder actually defines "main" anymore. |
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| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | I do generally also accept that user-facing GUI application developers have better things to do than manual poll the event loop~ |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | *manually |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | Though I do prefer it to be at least theoretically possible, Apple. |
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| 21:49 | <&[R]> | Any benefit to doing so? |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | Makes certain kinds of systems easier to bolt GUI support onto as a module. |
| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | Whether that's a benefit is a permanent debate |
| 21:50 | < Jessikat`> | Like, say, game simulations |
| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | (And you can make it happen in Cocoa, at least.) |
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| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | (But you don't do it by actually manually getting and dispatching the events; there's a call you can make that is 'do that main-event-loop stuff until you would block, then return control to me' and that's generally good enough) |
| 21:51 | <&McMartin> | It's *most* important when for whatever reason you've decided you want your GUI application to be single-threaded. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | A debate for which the two sides may be summarized as "fuck not having background worker threads" and "fuck threads" |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | I can't speak to the modern game engine philosopy of this stuff, but the VICE emulator wants hardware emulation to be the primary thing the program as a whole is doing, and letting the GUI get around to showing the user what the simulated system looks like is a distant second. |
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| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | Relying on the GUI's "periodically execute this state update function" routine to keep things like serial ports and music running properly was deemed by the ancients as just asking for unnecessary headaches. |
| 21:54 | <@Tamber> | Because it'll work 95% of the time, and the other 5% will either be demos, or out on a client's system~? |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | Heh. Given that VICE is a Commodore 64 emulator I completely misread "demos" there at first |
| 21:55 | <@Tamber> | hehe :) |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | Note that getting *that* kind of demo to work reliably is an extremely inflexible product requirement~ |
| 21:55 | <@Tamber> | Quite. |
| 21:56 | <@Tamber> | But if it's going to fail, that's when it's going to go. :p |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | We've been modernizing the Unix UI and hoping to get it working more broadly |
| 21:56 | < Jessikat> | I do enjoy that WPF was built to be agnostic of threads right up until they needed to release it, at which point it suddenly needed to know about the main GUI thread as a concept |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | GTK3 kind of splits the difference; they *want* you to do the "just let GtkApplication control everything" thing, but if for some reason you can't you can tell it to execute exactly one pending GUI event if possible |
| 21:57 | <&McMartin> | And every signal handler you connect gets handed the event structure |
| 21:58 | <&McMartin> | A cynic might call that the worst of both worlds, or even suggest that GNOME and its ancillary teams like GTK have been thoughtlessly aping the Macintosh with no knowledge of what the differing design decisions mean |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | But it mostly does work. |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | Jessikat: Is WPF here Windows Presentation Framework or some other system? |
| 22:03 | | Derakon_ is now known as Derakon |
| 22:03 | | mode/#code [+ao Derakon Derakon] by ChanServ |
| 22:07 | <&McMartin> | Tamber: That also said, it occurs to me that most major open-source software lives that 95/5 rule and that's why crash reporters are so aggressively pushed |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | The flipside of "works on my computer" is "The things that break on *our* systems get fixed in the alpha" |
| 22:16 | <@Tamber> | *nods* |
| 22:17 | <&[R]> | Which 95/5 rule? |
| 22:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | "95% of events come from 5% of causes" |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | This one was |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | 13:54 <@Tamber> Because it'll work 95% of the time, and the other 5% will either be demos, or out on a client's system~? |
| 22:28 | <&[R]> | Ah |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | For most of my professional career, my employers' clients were companies so large that just the test labs from one of them had hundreds of times as many people working in them as our entire company employed |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | So the idea that one catches all the bugs in-house was never a world I really lived in outside of programming for absolutely fixed commodity hardware like 80s game consoles. |
| 23:11 | <&[R]> | https://imgur.com/gallery/Gu2kMKe |
| 23:15 | < Jessikat> | McMartin: yeah, Windows presentation system |
| 23:15 | < Jessikat> | The GUI underlying everything since roughly vista I think |
| 23:16 | < Jessikat> | There's a marvelously cogent book on its development and internals by one of the chief architects |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | Oh nice |
| 23:16 | < Jessikat> | Which is how I learned it, heh |
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| 23:17 | | * McMartin has only really used WinForms, which is IHRC one level of abstraction down, and then raw user32.dll calls, which is an additional layer below that. |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | That latter was pretty great though, given that it resulted in a binary that ran unchanged and without compat-mode flags on both Windows 10 and Windows 98 |
| 23:19 | < Jessikat> | WPF is genuinely an excitingly powerful system once you understand the intricacies though |
| 23:20 | < Jessikat> | It's what we use a lot in tools at work and it lets us get a lot of the mundane stuff done super quick |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | I can imagine; my memory of it when I was looking at it was "this is doing a lot of great stuff that I actually don't need for the thing I need to write right now" |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | It seemed focused on, hrm |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | "Document based applications" isn't *quite* right - but something where there's some core data structure altered by both the user and internal logic and you wanted seamless view updates in both directions |
| 23:21 | < Jessikat> | It's built around separating data from presentation, aggressively so |
| 23:21 | < Jessikat> | And the visual tree is flexible that basically anything can contain anything else |
| 23:22 | < Jessikat> | There's a couple of quirks in calculating boundaries and sizes you need to know |
| 23:22 | < Jessikat> | And the controls are aggrivatingly nonstandard in places |
| 23:22 | < Jessikat> | But in general it's a very nice system |
| 23:23 | < Jessikat> | Certainly the least unhappy I've been when developing GUI apps |
| 23:23 | < Jessikat> | And I find basically any GUI tedious beyond belief |
| 23:24 | < Jessikat> | I enjoy coding to hardware and designing applications but very little of what's in the middle for its own sake, heh |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jan 02 00:00:20 2018 |