| --- Log opened Mon Nov 20 00:00:22 2017 |
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| 19:20 | < simon_> | I want to create non-planar mazes. |
| 19:20 | < simon_> | why aren't they around! |
| 19:22 | < simon_> | non-planar mazes projected into the plane, I mean. |
| 19:25 | < simon_> | I want it to seem like you can walk into the same square from two sides and end up in different places, but really they are just different places. |
| 19:26 | <@ErikMesoy> | They are around. |
| 19:26 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, do you know what to search for? I told a friend at work this and he said he'd seen it before, but couldn't recall any names. |
| 19:27 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't know the proper name, I just know there is one in a quest Dungeons&Dragons Online that is FAMOUS among the playerbase for being a PITA to navigate. |
| 19:27 | < simon_> | wow, excellent. |
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| 19:28 | < simon_> | I want to auto-generate them and come up with some properties for how dense you can make a graph before you lose the feeling of it being close to euclidean. |
| 19:29 | <@ErikMesoy> | It's called the Shadow Crypt and its basic structure is a start room, 12 mid rooms, and an end room. |
| 19:30 | < simon_> | most certainly the graph should be reflexive, for example, so going A->north->B->south->A should end you up in the same place. otherwise 1) it's gonna feel nuts, 2) I'm not even sure how to reasonably do that in 3D, eventually. |
| 19:30 | <@ErikMesoy> | The Shadow Crypt is not reflexive. :) |
| 19:31 | <@ErikMesoy> | From the start room, there are two exit passages that lead you into a mid room. From each mid room, there are four exit passages. 47 of these 48 mid-exit passages lead to another mid room; 1 leads to the end room. Where the exits lead to is randomized once upon quest entry, and remains fixed for as long as a character is running the maze. |
| 19:32 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, but there are loading screens in between the rooms? |
| 19:32 | <@ErikMesoy> | The transitions are instant but not continuous. |
| 19:32 | <@ErikMesoy> | And for the sake of your sanity, the quest also provides you with an item that takes you back to the starting room. |
| 19:33 | <&McMartin> | simon_: The Marathon series' engine did this ("4D space", they called it) and at least a few levels made use of it to build physically impossible levels. |
| 19:33 | <&McMartin> | And, of course, they are a staple of early-text-game mazes |
| 19:34 | < simon_> | hehe, I just want to do a text-based maze game for starters. :) |
| 19:34 | < simon_> | but perhaps more nethack-style with FOV than MUD. |
| 19:34 | <@ErikMesoy> | simon_: Weave mazes? http://weblog.jamisbuck.org/2011/3/4/maze-generation-weave-mazes.html |
| 19:35 | <&McMartin> | simon_: I mean, like, Colossal Cave/Zork/etc |
| 19:35 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, that's a really good starting point, thanks! |
| 19:38 | < simon_> | it could be fun to gradually turn up the density of impossible (in 2D) transitions. weave mazes actually render nicely in 2D, but as long as you're only given a limited field of view, you can even have non-metric mazes. |
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| 19:40 | <&McMartin> | simon_: A system like Inform will let you define it as a series of rooms where each directional exit is, essentially, a teleport |
| 19:40 | <&McMartin> | If you use Inform 6, that's always what it is and you have to do extra work to make connections be two-way, much less metric |
| 19:41 | <&McMartin> | Inform 7 is assertion-based and connections are bidirectional unless "direction from X is Y" are explicitly specified two ways in ways that contradict |
| 19:41 | < simon_> | McMartin, but will Inform let me draw a nethack-style 2D map of what I can currently see (regardless of whether the same room/tile occurs several times all over the place)? |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin> | Not for free, because it is for Zork-style interaction. |
| 19:42 | < simon_> | right |
| 19:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | simon_: Another potential trick that comes to mind is to build a pair of 2D normal mazes (or more than two, this generalizes), "place" one on top of the other in 3D space in your model, and then connect them at some points. |
| 19:42 | < simon_> | I've played around with Inform 7. it seems nice for interactive storytelling games. |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin> | It could be done - because it was in Zork III, and Inform was built to be able to do everything Infocom's core tools could - but then you have no major advantage over curses. |
| 19:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | These connections could easily be modeled and kept track of in your "DM screen" as up/down connections. |
| 19:42 | <@ErikMesoy> | But from the player's POV, they'd be called N/E/W/S connections. |
| 19:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | (Use directions that would go into a wall in the 2D, so you don't get ambiguity.) |
| 19:43 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, yes, that's a good idea. or simply generate a regular 2D maze and create teleports between various walls. |
| 19:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | That's getting into arbitrary connection territory though... |
| 19:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | How arbitrary and hard-to-map are you aiming for in this design? |
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| 21:10 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, I don't know, I thought I'd try and find out. it has to feel like a 2D maze (just like those weave mazes), but weird. I thought I'd auto-generate some with an increasing connectedness and test them against some heuristic maze solvers to find out how "portal placement" affects difficulty. |
| 21:14 | < simon_> | ErikMesoy, I did this maze solving thing for a job interview and enjoyed it, but I kind of like the idea of the cells in a maze not having fixed coordinates and letting there be possibly undetectable cycles, and then use meta-heuristic methods to vary between depth and breadth... or something. well, anyways, I just thought it was some boring mazes. even just having multiple paths would've been more fun. |
| 21:15 | < simon_> | there was a monster in the maze with a score of 0-100 being the chance that it makes a move in my direction vs. random walk. so on 100, I could only win if it wasn't between me and the exit. with multiple paths, at least I could've run in circles. |
| 21:16 | < simon_> | I think a monster in a maze that has the same speed as you is only really scary if you feel lost. |
| 21:17 | <&McMartin> | At same speed, you cannot make errors. |
| 21:17 | <&McMartin> | And you can never make up lost time. |
| 21:17 | <&McMartin> | That's not hide-and-seek, it's a doom counter for wrong urns |
| 21:17 | <&McMartin> | *turns |
| 21:17 | <@Tamber> | hehehe |
| 21:17 | < simon_> | right. but if it's turn-based, you get time to think. but yeah, if it's realtime that's plenty of scary. |
| 21:18 | < simon_> | so if it's slower, you still can't make too many mistakes. |
| 21:20 | | * simon_ will start with those weave mazes. |
| 21:28 | <@Tamber> | (re: wrong urns "This one isn't grandma's ashes!" "This one isn't either!" "ohgodohgodohgod" HURRY UP GUYS, I DON'T HAVE ALL ETERNITY.) |
| 21:30 | <&McMartin> | The 't' key on this keyboard misbehaves regularly, either giving 0 or 2 instead of 1. |
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| 22:15 | | * Kizor reads back, notes that a monster that moves at the same speed as you is the Terminator. |
| 22:17 | < Kizor> | And that the mummy in the DuckTales game can go fuck itself with a cheese grater, seriously. |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Caneslap an oil drum into his face |
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| 23:11 | <&[R]> | Ugh that stupid mummy |
| 23:12 | <&[R]> | How'd it work exactly? Anyone know |
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| --- Log closed Tue Nov 21 00:00:24 2017 |