| --- Log opened Wed Jun 21 00:00:57 2017 |
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| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | New Bumbershoot! https://bumbershootsoft.wordpress.com/2017/06/21/project-mehitabel-c-defying-uni x/ |
| 06:33 | <~Vornicus> | "24 bytes flat" should be a link to the appropriate post |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | It's a fair cop |
| 06:42 | <&McMartin> | Also updated to put it in the raspberry pi category |
| 06:44 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 06:47 | <~Vornicus> | woot |
| 08:07 | < sshine> | I'm building a subscription service and I'm wondering how to best model a subscription. basically, a user signs up and receives something every N weeks (N = 4, 8 or 12). they can pause the subscription, resume it again, or cancel it altogether. |
| 08:08 | < sshine> | I'd like a transaction history of all those changes, so a simple subscriptions(id, user_id, N, created_at, updated_at, paused_at, cancelled_at, resumed_at) is slightly insufficient. |
| 08:09 | < sshine> | it's terribly convenient, though. so I'm thinking I could compensate by making a transaction log for retrospection. |
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| 10:03 | | * Tamber noseys through the bumbershoot, perks an eyebrow. |
| 10:04 | <@Tamber> | McM: The hello-world source at the top of your step 2 seems to have had its angle brackets eaten~ (Not yet read far enough through to see if the rest of them have.) |
| 10:09 | <@Tamber> | Are there aren't any others, so that deals with that~ |
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| 11:32 | <&McMartin> | Fixed. One of WordPress's minor joys is that <pre> isn't. |
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| 11:43 | <@Tamber> | :) |
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| 19:54 | <&[R]> | http://widgetsandshit.com/teddziuba/2010/10/taco-bell-programming.html |
| 20:42 | <@Alek> | well, that's something. |
| 20:42 | <@Alek> | I knew it as batch programming. :P |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, this guy is unaware that he is doing DevOps with shell as his favored language |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | But yes, shell is pretty good at that |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | And the "small sharp tools" thing is a major component of the Unix philosophy, and it's a handy one to have |
| 20:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | I agree with that article in principle, but goddamn does it come across as being super dismissive of even the possibility that there exist problems those tools don't scale to |
| 20:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Like, the reason google doesn't use xargs and wget isn't because we're addicted to complexity, it's because that doesn't scale to downloading and indexing the entire web, constantly |
| 20:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, we're also addicted to complexity, but that's orthogonal~ |
| 20:56 | <&McMartin> | Have you ever met a Unix zealot |
| 20:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | <- |
| 20:57 | <&McMartin> | You just proved you aren't~ |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | The fact that xargs and wget don't work for this is proof that wanting to do it is insane~ |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | O |
| 21:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, I do wish that we could do this with wget + some kind of distributed meta-xargs |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure what exactly the inciting incident was that led me to conclude that the default definition of "sane" on the Internet means "interoperates with no special additional work with commandline Unix tools" but I've seen no reason to not use that as my default assumption until proven otherwise |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | And whatever that incident was it had to have been at least 15 years ago |
| 21:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | And we probably could, in the sense that "this is technically possible" |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | (For an actual defense of it, including some places where he concedes that it isn't the only story that can be told, ESR's 'The Art of Unix Programming' bothers to make the case) |
| 21:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | But we're also operating at a scale where things like "saving a few instructions in malloc() means we get to throw out and/or reallocate ten thousand machines" so the fork/exec overhead of that sort of approach is a complete non-starter. |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | (Since I normally find ESR's polemic impossibly tedious, this stands out as actually working" |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | s/"/) |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 21:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | (honestly one of my ideal jobs probably is something like "doing devops at a scale where 'just do it all in bash' is a reasonable approach") |
| 21:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I like bash.) |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | I'd agree but of the folks here, I think TheWatcher comes the closest to living that dream and I'm not convinced he invites envy >_> |
| 21:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Point~ |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | (But I'm pretty sure my ideal position is two or three ticks closer to system programming and am pretty sure that colors my perceptions) |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | That *also* said |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | You mentioned fork/exec overhead |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | "What if running a program didn't require fork/exec" |
| 21:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | I wouldn't be surprised if we had a team working on that somewhere~ |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | (then all the spiders, which is why languages with immutable data) |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | Single-tasking OSes that map complete programs into their own address space and call them regularly! |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | re: "team working on that somewhere" - there are those rumors about some kind of post-Android that abandons the Linux kernel as too heavyweight, I guess |
| 21:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think we announced that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fuchsia |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | Highly Official rumors then >_> |
| 21:10 | | * McMartin has moved on to "get performance back into acceptable ranges after other teams' technical debt has stacked too high |
| 21:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have no idea if there are plans to use it in prod or if it's just an android replacement or what |
| 21:12 | <&McMartin> | I'd say "it looks like it's intending to be broader than Android's scope" but given that Android's scope could in principle include the desktop that's not clear either~ |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | In unrelated but obviously extremely important news: http://www.unicode.org/emoji/charts/emoji-released.html |
| 21:13 | <&McMartin> | U+1F9D0 FACE WITH MONOCLE |
| 21:13 | <&[R]> | Is there a shell or shell-like scripting language that's easier to read? |
| 21:14 | <&McMartin> | With tongue only lightly touching cheek: Python |
| 21:14 | <&[R]> | D: |
| 21:15 | <&McMartin> | Of the scripting languages that *can* serve as OS glue, Python has actually drastically outperformed Perl for me in terms of "just works even on non-Unix" |
| 21:15 | <&[R]> | I'd be doing this for bootscripts |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | Mmm. |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | Perl, if you're careful? |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | Some kind of nicer shell? |
| 21:16 | <&[R]> | I can't read perl |
| 21:16 | <&[R]> | Let alone write it |
| 21:16 | <&McMartin> | It's possible to write readable Perl |
| 21:17 | <&McMartin> | I know of exactly two people who have >_> |
| 21:17 | <&[R]> | Last time I read the docs, the docs for the regex stuff didn't explain what the side-effect variables were, which made said operators useless for anything beyond comparisons |
| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | I suspect my answer will be "very careful shell" |
| 21:23 | <&[R]> | Your python answer made me half-tempted to do it as a node.js daemon :/ |
| 21:23 | <&[R]> | Though I am using monit, so I don't have much that it'd need to handle, just setting up network I think. |
| 21:52 | | * McMartin giggles inappropriately |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | The subtitle for Learn Python the Hard Way is "A Very Simple Introduction to the Terrifyingly Beautiful World of Computers and Code" |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | The subtitle - same author - for Learn C the Hard Way is "Learn to think like the computer hates you, because it does" |
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| 22:03 | < ErikMesoy> | Which one says "Learn to think like the compiler hates you"? |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | As a rule, compilers don't hate you |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | They're just disappointed. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jun 22 00:00:58 2017 |