| --- Log opened Sat May 27 00:00:24 2017 |
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| 01:27 | <@celmin|sleep> | Hmm, I wonder if it would be safe/acceptable to distribute libc++.dylib with an app... |
| 01:28 | | celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel |
| 01:28 | <&McMartin> | That... seems like it shouldn't be necessary? |
| 01:29 | <&McMartin> | If it looks like it is, that sounds like your deployment-target flags are messed up somehow |
| 01:30 | <@celticminstrel> | I dunno. |
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| 01:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Couldn't it be necessary if you want C++14 features but still want to support older systems? |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | I'd be concerned that it wouldn't suffice, because that libc++ might make syscalls that don't exist in older systems |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | Ideally C++14 features would get statically linked in with appropriate compatibility levels. |
| 01:32 | <@celticminstrel> | It wouldn't do that if it was built on that older system though. |
| 01:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Then again, I suppose in that case it might make syscalls that were removed on newer systems... |
| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | Right, which is where you then get into the glorious world where everything breaks on *newer* systems |
| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | Sierra was awful about that |
| 01:33 | <@celticminstrel> | So how would you go about getting them statically linked in with appropriate compatibility levels? |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | I would probably fail, if we're being honest. I never *did* get UQM's build process to work the way I wanted it to. |
| 01:34 | <@celticminstrel> | ...heh... |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | But I'd explore the build settings to see what I could tweak. |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | How old is "old" here? |
| 01:35 | <@celticminstrel> | Probably )SX 10.7 or WinXP. |
| 01:35 | <@celticminstrel> | %O |
| 01:35 | <&McMartin> | My aim at the time was "every Intel Mac, ever" |
| 01:35 | <@celticminstrel> | ... |
| 01:35 | <@celticminstrel> | ^OSX |
| 01:35 | <@celticminstrel> | I mean in theory I could push it back to 10.4, but why should I bother? |
| 01:36 | <&McMartin> | WinXP won't be difficult; mingw32 targets a basic level so low that I've had stuff run bit-exact on Win10 and Win98 SE |
| 01:36 | <&McMartin> | I'm... I'm actually not 100% convinced you can push it past 10.9 |
| 01:36 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, the reason I say 10.4 is that I have the 10.4u SDK, because my computer came with 10.4 installed. |
| 01:37 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I think the idea is to use the latest SDK you can but target the earliest platform you can |
| 01:37 | <@celticminstrel> | So I definitely could, in theory, push it back that far; even if it means having a separate build for the oldest systems. |
| 01:37 | <&McMartin> | Well, except that the 10.4 SDK won't know how to C++14 |
| 01:37 | <&McMartin> | Or probably even C++11 |
| 01:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Right, so I'd have to start by building clang and libc++ and boost and that all gets into the "why should I bother?". |
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| 20:44 | <@abudhabi> | Hm. |
| 20:44 | <@abudhabi> | Could electronics in vacuum survive a billion years? |
| 20:45 | <@abudhabi> | Rather than rot and/or turn to dust. |
| 20:48 | <&[R]> | Presumably if the vacuum was clean (as in clean room) |
| 21:02 | <@gnolam> | In general, I would say no. |
| 21:02 | <~Vornicus> | vacuums do surprising damage to things! |
| 21:02 | <@gnolam> | Electrolyte degradation. Whiskers. Thermal cycling cracks. |
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| 21:06 | <@gnolam> | ... huh, there's actually been a satellite lost to tin whiskers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_IV |
| 21:11 | <&[R]> | Interesting |
| 21:31 | <@abudhabi> | Fascinating. |
| 21:32 | <@abudhabi> | What *would* be the state of modern electronics after a billion years in vacuum? |
| 21:33 | <@abudhabi> | Assuming two-digit Kelvin temperatures, no substantial radiation or medium damage. |
| 21:59 | <@Alek> | modern electronics are still whiskery, albeit not as badly as tin, iirc. |
| 22:00 | <@Alek> | background radiation also adds up. |
| 22:01 | <~Vornicus> | there's whiskers, thermal cycling -- remember, all you need is *any* variation -- spontaneous sublimation, cosmic rays... |
| 22:01 | <~Vornicus> | even low temperatures don't actually protect you from thermal cycling. |
| 22:05 | <@abudhabi> | Right. So what I'm looking at is 'mostly the same shape, but completely, utterly useless'. |
| 22:20 | <@Alek> | eventually, yeah |
| 22:21 | <@Alek> | also, with the miniaturization, any change (whiskering, etc) has a bigger effect because it's working on smaller components. |
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| 23:08 | <@gnolam> | Alek: modern electronics are *more* prone to whiskers than old electronics. Turns out inhibiting whiskers is one of the few things lead is legitimately good at. |
| 23:09 | <&[R]> | It's also heavy and blocks radiation. |
| 23:09 | <&[R]> | :p |
| 23:30 | <@Alek> | hmm. I am learned. |
| 23:31 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 23:33 | <@Alek> | and then there was that 3D memory concept I read about a few years back, that was supposedly in testing, that was using the whiskering of silver deliberately to create memory states that didn't require an ongoing current to keep up. created with a given current, erasable with another current. |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | I read this quickly and it looks like cats breaking electronics by nuzzling them |
| 23:35 | <@Alek> | probably millions of read-write cycles per bit, and the 3D format was gonna have more capacity for the volume than current flash memory. |
| 23:35 | | * Alek shrugs. |
| 23:38 | <~Vornicus> | McM: not unheard of in the slightest~ |
| 23:39 | <~Vornicus> | though I suspect less likely in a vacuum |
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| --- Log closed Sun May 28 00:00:25 2017 |