| --- Log opened Sun May 21 00:00:16 2017 |
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| 03:08 | < Mahal> | hello #code. |
| 03:08 | < Mahal> | I seek assistance in the form of resources. |
| 03:09 | < Mahal> | I have a friend (known as copilot) who alleges not to computer, but does electronics. |
| 03:09 | < Mahal> | he has recently started to play with arduino, is pretty competently managing to electronics various things together, and slightly tweak other people's arduino code to make things go. |
| 03:09 | < Mahal> | Now he's decided he needs How To Code For Dummies and possibly How To Arduino For Dummies |
| 03:09 | < Mahal> | at best I manage powershell abominations and am just not a programmer. |
| 03:09 | < Mahal> | help? |
| 03:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Hi. |
| 03:18 | < ToxicFrog> | arduino \o/ |
| 03:18 | < ToxicFrog> | Mahal: is he looking for...online resources? someone to ask questions of? other? |
| 03:19 | < ToxicFrog> | If the former, the official Arduino getting started page is a good place to start: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Guide/HomePage |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | I recall that the Arduino programming model is noticably different from most other devices. |
| 03:21 | < ToxicFrog> | Arduino is specifically aimed at people with no prior programming experience, so the docs are written with that in mind, AIUI. |
| 03:22 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: not really, in my experience? It's a small microcontroller that you program in a subset of C (or asm or forth, if you prefer) |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | Right, my memory was that, e.g., main() did not exist and you needed to organize code into "sketches" for it to work, like, at all |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | As opposed to "fill in this shell application" |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | What with being very explicitly an embedded device and thus not really having a notion of programs that it loads and runs |
| 03:24 | < ToxicFrog> | "sketch" is just the IDE's term for "project" |
| 03:24 | <&McMartin> | I admit this was based on some very basic scanning of material surrounding it and these may have been the Lies to Children that I mistook for a major shift in design philosophy |
| 03:25 | < ToxicFrog> | And there's an implicit main() that just consists of { setup(); while (1) loop(); } |
| 03:25 | < ToxicFrog> | And you are expected to define setup() and loop() |
| 03:25 | < ToxicFrog> | (you can also replace this wholesale if you are willing to take the training wheels off) |
| 03:26 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that latter was a bit I was unclear on |
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| 03:27 | < ToxicFrog> | (this is a bit lies-to-children; the builtin main() also does a bunch of hardware initialization before calling setup()) |
| 03:30 | < ToxicFrog> | yeah, it's been a while but IIRC you just define main() as normal in your code and it'll automatically not link in the default one |
| 03:34 | <&McMartin> | (that's Lies To Grownups; C programmers as a rule need not concern themselves with crt0.s) |
| 03:35 | <@celticminstrel> | crt0.s? |
| 03:35 | <&McMartin> | This seems to be the traditional name for the assembly language code that executes before handing control to main() |
| 03:36 | < ToxicFrog> | In this case it's things like "make sure the on-board timers and the USB controller are actually turned on" |
| 03:36 | <&McMartin> | At an absolute minimum its job is to manage commandline arguments and do any work of registering the process with the OS; in practice it also needs to do things like set up the heap for any future calls to malloc() and execution of other global intialization routines like constructors for any static C++ objects. |
| 03:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Kinda wish it was easier to step thought static initialization. |
| 03:37 | <&McMartin> | Static initialization is, alas, poorly specified, and on purpose |
| 03:37 | <@celticminstrel> | I think this code is actually (at least partly) C code on Windows. |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | At least, I definitely recall stepping through C code that calls main() when debugging in Windows (can't rememebr why, maybe I just stepped out from main() or a static initializer after hitting a breakpoint. |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | ) |
| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | ^remember |
| 03:38 | <&McMartin> | I'd say "it's been a long time since I've gotten to deal with a binary format where the linkloader process is 'copy file contents to memory location ____ and then jump to it" but that's DOS's .COM, RISC OS's native app format, and everything on the C64 except for the "and jump to it" part |
| 03:38 | <&McMartin> | And I've used all three of those in the past 24 hours |
| 03:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 03:39 | <&McMartin> | ... well. Past 48. |
| 03:40 | <~Vornicus> | pff |
| 03:40 | <@celticminstrel> | Even if it's poorly specified it seems like it should be possible to have a way to step through it. |
| 03:41 | <&McMartin> | Oh, I see what you are getting at |
| 03:41 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 03:41 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I recall seeing a function called start() below main() on the stack in some runtime... can't recall if that was Windows, or OSX, or even OS9... |
| 03:41 | <&McMartin> | I wonder if you can actually set a breakpoint at _start proper. |
| 03:42 | <&McMartin> | (Actually, I may also be being overly strict. I haven't dug too deep into ELF, and most of what I have done has been contending with .o files, but it's entirely possible that final, statically-linked, ld-completed ELF binaries are less ugly than MS-DOS EXE) |
| 03:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Line information for static initializors would need to be set properly too, I think... |
| 03:43 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, but you can get the declaration point by looking at the value of "this" in your constructor, and then the whole stack frame from there on out is constructor code |
| 03:44 | <@celticminstrel> | Completely unrelatedly, why do constructors often appear twice on the stack? |
| 03:44 | <&McMartin> | (MS-DOS EXE is unfortunate, incidentally, because it allows code relocation but does *not* have virtual memory/hardware address translation, so it has to patch the code to the location it was loaded.) |
| 03:45 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. That sounds like a question for someone more sorcerously inclined than me |
| 03:45 | <&McMartin> | Which usually means I ask Jessikat but this may be a lazy reflex on my part >_. |
| 03:45 | <&McMartin> | >_> even |
| 03:45 | <@celticminstrel> | I could see reason for stepping through static initializations of numbers too, not just classes. |
| 03:46 | <@celticminstrel> | If there are startup calculations going on or something. |
| 03:46 | <~Vornicus> | I see we've gone off the rails |
| 03:46 | <@celticminstrel> | Sorry! XD |
| 03:46 | <~Vornicus> | Okay. arduino means probably using C 'cause asm is probably too much |
| 03:46 | <@celticminstrel> | When he said arduino I only thought of arduino.js. >_> |
| 03:47 | <~Vornicus> | Which means probably start with some C tutorial books, but I don't know any of those. |
| 03:47 | < ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: Arduino's IDE uses a restricted subset of C |
| 03:47 | < ToxicFrog> | (although you can use Actual C if you want) |
| 03:47 | <@celticminstrel> | How restricted? "C without floating-points"? |
| 03:48 | <&McMartin> | Gonna guess no heap |
| 03:48 | < ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: I don't remember |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Speaking of floating points (on another random tangent), why are they all binary? |
| 03:48 | <&McMartin> | ... why wouldn't they be? |
| 03:48 | <~Vornicus> | because that's more efficient |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | IEEE specifies decimal formats too IIRC. |
| 03:48 | <~Vornicus> | Vastly so. |
| 03:48 | <@celticminstrel> | (I assume that's BCD or something.) |
| 03:48 | <&McMartin> | We left BCD with EBCDIC |
| 03:49 | < ToxicFrog> | Mahal: anyways, we've digressed, but if he wants to talk to people get him in here, and if he wants to read things https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/HomePage is probably a good place to start |
| 03:49 | <@celticminstrel> | (Which interestingly the 68k supports natively?) |
| 03:49 | <~Vornicus> | Decimal arithmetic is annoying to do, doesn't store as well, and can cause sneaky, sneaky bugs |
| 03:49 | <@celticminstrel> | Binary floating points may be more efficient, but BCD would suffer fewer loss of precision errors; I've heard calculators generally use BCD. |
| 03:50 | <~Vornicus> | not enough fewer to be worth it. |
| 03:50 | <&McMartin> | The issues this solves are solved as well or better with fixed-point |
| 03:50 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, but why not? |
| 03:50 | <~Vornicus> | because there's nothing you can do at all about irrational numbers |
| 03:50 | <@celticminstrel> | True... |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | (x86 and 6502 also have BCD support and x86 has an even decimallier one where it works on ascii coded numerals) |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | (Thus giving you The First Instruction: AAA. ASCII Adjust After Addition. |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | ) |
| 03:55 | <@celticminstrel> | Huh. |
| 03:56 | <&McMartin> | 6502's BCD support was actually patented, and there's a fun story about this |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | When the NES was released, the chip manufacturer (which was, at that time, actually Commodore) got one and was revving up their attack lawyers as they took the cap off the NES's 2A03 chip |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | At which point you have the big dramatic AHA and... |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | ... every bit of patented circuitry instead was replaced with the sound generator |
| 03:57 | <&McMartin> | which is why you hear "2A03" used to describe both NES chiptunes and its CPU |
| 03:57 | <~Vornicus> | Or, to put this in more direct perspective: there are 24 denominators you can use for numbers larger than 1 in single precision floating point. ieee's decimal floating point gives 50 or so. |
| 03:58 | <~Vornicus> | ...out of 20 million numbers below the maximum. |
| 03:58 | <@celticminstrel> | So 6502 has BCD support but NES does not? |
| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | Correct. CLD/SED are no-ops on the NES. |
| 03:59 | <&McMartin> | Now, in practice, nobody *uses* the damn things on the C64/Apple II/Oric/BBC Micro/etc |
| 04:00 | <&McMartin> | Even systems like the Atari 2600 seem to keep score with something that looks more like ASCII storage. |
| 04:01 | <@celticminstrel> | I think I know what Vorn just said but am missing the significance of it somehow. |
| 04:01 | <~Vornicus> | celmin: the only numbers exactly expressible by a binary floating point format are what's called "dyadic fractions" - fractions with a power of 2 as their denominator. |
| 04:02 | <~Vornicus> | In decimal you're allowed somewhat more, but the list is still Extremely Limited, because you're talking about 50 out of millions. |
| 04:02 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 04:02 | <@celticminstrel> | So you're basically saying the gain in that sense is small. |
| 04:02 | <&McMartin> | The part where people get butthurt is that one of those denominators is 100. |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | And they really want to use floating point for monetary values |
| 04:03 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 04:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 04:03 | <~Vornicus> | Which is to say, They Are Fools |
| 04:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Right, don't do that.+ |
| 04:03 | <&McMartin> | The correct solution is to store an integral number of pennies. |
| 04:04 | <~Vornicus> | We're awful good at going off the rails |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | How many of us here are Rails programmes? |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | rs |
| 04:05 | <&McMartin> | Not many, I imagine |
| 04:05 | <@celticminstrel> | So does anyone actually use IEEE decimal formats? |
| 04:05 | <~Vornicus> | None that I'm aware of. |
| 04:05 | <~Vornicus> | ...that answers both questions |
| 04:05 | | * celticminstrel hasn't touched Ruby (yet). |
| 04:07 | <&Reiver> | You all managed well at turning a simple query into Deep Philosphy. |
| 04:07 | <&Reiver> | Well done, you loons |
| 04:07 | <~Vornicus> | It's Insanely Great |
| 04:08 | <~Vornicus> | Which is to say it's actually not all that great, the community is full of jerks with superiority complexes, the tutorial materials read like marketing, and terrible ideas are official recommendations. |
| 04:09 | <&McMartin> | Spoken like someone with long experience of Apple products -_- |
| 04:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Apple officially recommends terrible ideas? |
| 04:10 | <&McMartin> | That is from the period where they were claiming pre-emptive multitasking and memory protection were misfeatures |
| 04:11 | <~Vornicus> | I still haven't figured out how the one menu bar on the top of the screen survived into osx. |
| 04:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, that must've been a long time ago then. |
| 04:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Like System 6. |
| 04:11 | <&McMartin> | Infinite-height menu targets! |
| 04:11 | <~Vornicus> | and 7 and 8 and 9. |
| 04:11 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, those didn't make it in until 2001 |
| 04:11 | <@celticminstrel> | But System 7 has multi-tasking. |
| 04:12 | <&McMartin> | Not pre-emptive |
| 04:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Really? |
| 04:12 | <~Vornicus> | yeah, it's all cooperative. |
| 04:12 | <&McMartin> | Really. It's all co-op handoff and an infinite loop in any app hard-locks the full system. |
| 04:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 04:12 | <&McMartin> | Even before you get into "wild pointer will overwrite EVERY APPLICATION RUNNING" |
| 04:12 | <@celticminstrel> | What's wrong with the top-of-screen menubar? |
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| 04:15 | <~Vornicus> | You have, basically, an object not attached to any particular window whose mode depends entirely on what window is active. |
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| 04:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, and? |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | And that's as many as four tens |
| 04:18 | <@celticminstrel> | ??? |
| 04:18 | <&McMartin> | And that's terrible |
| 04:18 | <~Vornicus> | And that's terrible. |
| 04:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay? |
| 04:19 | <~Vornicus> | Which, actually, it was worse with a different thing than the menu bar. |
| 04:19 | <~Vornicus> | One of the major mac IRC clients had a *text entry box* that worked the same way. |
| 04:19 | <&McMartin> | (That particular reference seems to have not been shared, but the intended message there was "that is the bad thing right there") |
| 04:19 | <@celticminstrel> | Pretty sure that kind of relationship exists for other things in other places (not necessarily Mac)... |
| 04:20 | <~Vornicus> | Which after a day of using it I had a message-in-the-right-channel rate of something like 50%. |
| 04:20 | <@celticminstrel> | Like how is it different than "select something and that window over their displays its properties". |
| 04:30 | <@macdjord> | I'm with CM on this one. The ease of access of having the menu bar at the edge of the screen is more than worth having it be physically disconnected form the window. I mean, I'm too familiar with the Windows way of doing it to take advantage of it now, but I recognise the Mac way as being Better. |
| 04:38 | <~Vornicus> | mm. I had a couple of designs floating around for a window thing that would make it work out so both worked. |
| 04:42 | <&Reiver> | the 'trick' to it is that it means if you have a tiny little calculator app, you'd better hope the bloody thing is really clear that it's the one in focus |
| 04:42 | < ToxicFrog> | My main objection to it is that it works spectacularly badly with FFM |
| 04:43 | < ToxicFrog> | And only works with SFFM if there are no other windows between the target and the menu bar |
| 04:43 | <&Reiver> | I recall the main pain was when you were doing things between two folders, because you had to be Really Careful which folder you were futzing with; the menus themselves didn't change to give you a context clue. |
| 04:43 | < ToxicFrog> | (unless you use keyboard shortcuts for everything, but in that case why bother having a menu bar at all?) |
| 04:43 | <&Reiver> | That was... a long time ago, though. |
| 04:45 | < ToxicFrog> | (Focus Follows Mouse and Sloppy FFM, for those wondering) |
| 04:45 | < ToxicFrog> | It's only really usable with Focus Follows Click or similar, and considering that SFFM is by far my preferred focus control mode this means it drives me up the wall |
| 04:46 | <~Vornicus> | what makes sffm sloppy |
| 04:47 | < ToxicFrog> | Moving the mouse out of a window but over, say, the desktop doesn't take focus away from that window |
| 04:47 | < ToxicFrog> | It doesn't lose focus until you move the mouse into another window |
| 04:47 | <&Derakon> | I've always hated Focus Follows Mouse. |
| 04:48 | <&Derakon> | I shouldn't need to worry about the path my mouse takes, and I should be able to move the mouse off of a window and still be able to interact with that window. |
| 04:48 | <~Vornicus> | the one that always blew me to smithereens is the one where hover focus actually brings the window to the front |
| 04:49 | <~Vornicus> | Which was incredibly anger making |
| 04:50 | <~Vornicus> | ut the linux lab at university did that and oh boy grumpy. |
| 04:50 | < ToxicFrog> | Derakon: I think my main objection is that FFC conflates "focus" and "raise" and a lot of the time I want to focus a window without raising it |
| 04:50 | < ToxicFrog> | But it's hard for me to actually pin down because these are reflexes burned in when I was like 6 |
| 04:51 | < ToxicFrog> | Anyways, time for slep |
| 04:51 | < ToxicFrog> | long past time |
| 04:51 | <~Vornicus> | nitf |
| 04:55 | <&McMartin> | For added fun it turns out RISC OS has a completely different set of assumptions because it's from an alien timeline |
| 04:55 | <&McMartin> | And is FFC but does not raise unless you use the upper-left window icon |
| 04:55 | <&McMartin> | ... and right click it because left clicking it means "bury" |
| 05:11 | <~Vornicus> | That's ... completely alien |
| 05:12 | <&McMartin> | One of the reasons I kind of want to mess around with GEM and early Amiga Workbenches is to see how alien *they* are |
| 05:12 | <&McMartin> | Because GEOS wasn't very |
| 05:12 | <&McMartin> | And despite the obvious differences, Mac, Windows, and the most popular X11 systems are all pretty close |
| 05:13 | <&McMartin> | The older X11 systems are utterly bonkers, but still have firm defenders~ |
| 05:20 | <~Vornicus> | I remember back when I ran linux -- 2002, mandrake 8.1 -- and I could without any real effort get four different save dialog boxes without any effort. |
| 05:20 | <~Vornicus> | That's how little effort it took~ |
| 05:27 | <@celticminstrel> | I think OSX is some weird hybrid of "focus follows mouse" and "focus follows click" - a window is focused only by clicking on it, but scroll wheel events are sent to the window under the mouse cursor rather than the focused window. |
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| 09:25 | <&McMartin> | Huge(X), GutsOf(Y, X) :- Huge(Y). |
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| 10:58 | < RchrdB> | McMartin, I love Prolog. |
| 10:58 | < RchrdB> | uh but |
| 10:59 | < RchrdB> | that isn't a Horn clause? there are two things to the left of the :-, in Prolog programs you always write one thing on the left of the :- |
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| 12:38 | < ToxicFrog> | :ie: Speaking of Arduino, I do in fact have one and I want to use it as an excuse to learn forth, but I have no idea what to do with it. |
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| 17:35 | | * [R] just remembered his favorite programming quote from way back. |
| 17:36 | <&[R]> | "Why are you bothering to learn C++? It's dying. Flash is going to replace it, just like it's going to replace everything else." |
| 17:37 | < Jessikat`> | The wave of the future is Algol 68 |
| 17:37 | | Jessikat` is now known as Jessikat |
| 17:37 | < Jessikat> | [R]: that is a marvellous quote |
| 17:39 | <&[R]> | Indeed it is |
| 18:06 | <@abudhabi> | https://www.sudosatirical.com/articles/theres-eighty-seven-percent-chance-linus- torvalds-hates-your-code/ |
| 18:11 | < Jessikat> | Seems legit |
| 18:13 | <&McMartin> | "The figures challenge the widely repeated perception that the outbreak was largely the result of end users who continued to deploy Windows XP, a Windows version Microsoft decommissioned three years ago. In fact, researchers now say, XP was largely untouched by last week's worm because PCs crashed before WCry could take hold." |
| 18:16 | <@abudhabi> | Hahaha. |
| 18:17 | <&McMartin> | Probably not as hilarious as it sounds, because the crash on the worm part seems like it was 100% |
| 18:18 | <&McMartin> | Which in turn almost certainly means "insinuates kernel-level code that attempts a syscall that doesn't exist" |
| 18:18 | <&McMartin> | And well yes that is a crash |
| 18:19 | | * celticminstrel wants to see what McM is quoting. |
| 18:20 | <&McMartin> | https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/05/windows-7-not-xp-was-the-reason-last-we eks-wcry-worm-spread-so-widely/ |
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| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | >_< |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | That feeling when you notice this code says LDX STA instead of LDX STX |
| 22:02 | <~Vornicus> | ? |
| 22:02 | <&McMartin> | Storing the wrong register to memory |
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| --- Log closed Mon May 22 00:00:17 2017 |