| --- Log opened Fri Apr 21 00:00:02 2017 |
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| 02:27 | < Vorntastic> | Thought, while sitting at a McDonald's waiting for Nancy to get out of work. |
| 02:28 | < Vorntastic> | You have scratch and game maker and similar where you can assemble code by moving blocks around, but I don't think either are able to do direct translation to text code. Why not? |
| 02:30 | < Vorntastic> | This I ask because I could totally be programming right now but there's no such thing as a good phone keyboard any more and the are no languages I could be programming in that don't rely on being able to type symbols relatively easily. Well. Maybe COBOL. |
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| 02:54 | < Vorntastic> | I guess most languages are quite rich in operations, which doesn't help - there's fifty keywords and a similar number of operators |
| 02:54 | < Vorntastic> | In Python |
| 02:56 | < RchrdB> | Does Scratch not have a way to dump out the AST of the thing you're working on as text? |
| 02:57 | < RchrdB> | I mean it corresponds so completely 1:1 with a syntax tree |
| 03:01 | < Vorntastic> | Not that I'm aware of. |
| 03:02 | < Vorntastic> | The project file is json |
| 03:03 | < Vorntastic> | So does game Maker's stuff. |
| 03:04 | < RchrdB> | Huh! |
| 03:08 | < Vorntastic> | Game maker also has a js version of its language which acts an awful lot like the graphical one but is much faster. |
| 03:17 | <&McMartin> | The "much faster" is a recent development; until GM:S had been out for a few years the JS dialect was far slower. |
| 03:17 | < Vorntastic> | And I mean most of the time you're not doing this sort of thing so I understand why there are few graphical languages but what I don't understand is why they aren't built to be serializable to human editable code. |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | In GM's case, because the graphical language predates any textual or even executable representation |
| 03:19 | <&McMartin> | "The GML compiler project" was a big deal when it happened |
| 03:20 | <&McMartin> | If I'm cynical, Scratch doesn't because it's based on Smalltalk, which doesn't believe in filesystems or applications and you ship a system by providing a copy of your persistent object store to be loaded into someone else's Smalltalk system |
| 03:20 | < Vorntastic> | Either Remar or Derek Yu mentioned switching to the text version for speed |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | Probably Derek Yu; Spelunky would have required a lot more juggling of stuff in the script form |
| 03:21 | <&McMartin> | And the script form is strictly more expressive across the board |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | And I think Remar's still using GM7 for his "modern" incarnations |
| 03:23 | <&McMartin> | Both do predate GM:S |
| 03:25 | <&McMartin> | My vague memory of working on Dapper Delver is that any graphical-to-text translation would have to be a trapdoor |
| 03:25 | < Vorntastic> | Not allowed to go back because text's expressiveness must be comparatively huge? |
| 03:26 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 03:26 | <&McMartin> | Like, as soon as you write out a mathematical formula of any kind, or use any of the data structure libraries to refer to game state, it is pretty much game over |
| 03:27 | < Vorntastic> | This is GM specifically |
| 03:27 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. Even if you are using the "graphical" mode then you are going to be jamming tons of script into the little text boxes. |
| 03:27 | <&McMartin> | Which, I mean, you can do, and if you get right down to it using GML everywhere *is* doing that |
| 03:27 | <&McMartin> | Just with the graphical action "run this script" |
| 03:28 | <&McMartin> | I have in truth never worked with Scratch or Smalltalk, only seen them by reputation |
| 03:29 | < Vorntastic> | I poked at smalltalk briefly and was repulsed. |
| 03:29 | <&McMartin> | It's extremely aggressive about a large number of things that do not play well with POSIX systems |
| 03:30 | <&McMartin> | It's also more or less to blame for everything wacky about Objective-C~ |
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| 04:30 | | * Vornicus returns home. |
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| 05:35 | <&McMartin> | OK. Time to try to jam one last graphical effect into this frame update routine |
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| 07:08 | <&McMartin> | Instead of doing that, I played Contra |
| 07:08 | <&McMartin> | And caught it doing some neat variations on a trick very like the one I'm trying to do on the C64, so, awesome |
| 07:13 | <&McMartin> | So, it was a common trick in the old NES games to fade the screen to black before fighting a giant boss, because said boss was secretly background tiles and thus you could scroll the screen around to make the boss appear to be moving. |
| 07:14 | <&McMartin> | Most giant enemies in Contra produce sprite flicker if you shove a bunch of other sprites into their rows, so you can tell they're made of sprites. |
| 07:14 | <&McMartin> | But the killdozers in the Snow Field stage don't, so they're made of background tiles... |
| 07:14 | <&McMartin> | ... but the background doesn't fade when you fight them. |
| 07:14 | <&McMartin> | *and* the background isn't just the same pixel column repeated 256 times, so that it could scroll horizontally without you noticing |
| 07:15 | <&McMartin> | ... but it *almost* is. I surmise that the details that aren't said single replicated pixel column are actually spritework held static. |
| 07:15 | <&McMartin> | Evidence for this is that it pops in and out at places that aren't the edge of the screen. ^_^ |
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| 07:44 | < Jessikat> | :) |
| 07:45 | < Jessikat> | The tricks on old hardware are so cool |
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| 11:02 | < sshine> | grrrr. chrome won't let go of a cached redirect. its incognito mode will, of course, but I can't seem to clear its knowledge of the redirect in regular mode. |
| 11:03 | | * sshine finds answer on google. |
| 11:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
| 11:05 | < sshine> | it'd be neat if it could do that on a per-site basis, but apparently not. |
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| 12:18 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 12:39 | < Jessikat`> | Oh god, we actually have a working code review pipeline |
| 12:39 | < Jessikat`> | What is this |
| 12:39 | | Jessikat` is now known as Jessikat |
| 12:40 | <@TheWatcher> | O.o |
| 12:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Craziness! |
| 12:42 | < Jessikat> | Also, I'm legit in charge of our STL implementation instead of merely being de facto maintainer |
| 12:42 | < Jessikat> | This is awesome |
| 12:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Congrats! :D |
| 12:46 | < Jessikat> | I have a task which is essentially 'this is fifteen years worth of cruft. Figure out what to burn' |
| 13:05 | <@gnolam> | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C93dBwsUIAAtQPH.jpg >_< |
| 14:25 | < sshine> | Jessikat, oohh, burning is nice! |
| 14:25 | < sshine> | I had one job with a sucky legacy codebase and took pride in having left a negative LOC contribution after leaving. :-D |
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| 14:46 | | * TheWatcher sighs, probably shouldn't take on another mediawiki extension |
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| 15:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | audiophiles... |
| 15:37 | <@TheWatcher> | They're a special sort of special |
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| 20:03 | | * Alek is digging through his cruft as well, while looking for his identification documents. XD |
| 20:04 | <@Alek> | shredded a bunch already. |
| 20:04 | <&McMartin> | Glory to Arstotzka? |
| 20:06 | <@Alek> | mainly old requests to pay my last ticket. :P |
| 20:06 | | * Alek is hunting his old greencard and if he can, his birth cert. |
| 20:07 | <@Alek> | the greencard, even though it's no longer valid since I'm a citizen, should cover the proof-of-DoB needed by the DMV. |
| 20:31 | | * abudhabi got paid in advance to make chances to the game of life so that it'll pass a somewhat arbitrary set of criteria. |
| 20:32 | <@abudhabi> | For the life of me, I don't see why they care that the internal state is an array or a map. |
| 20:35 | <@abudhabi> | And, of course, they need it by Sunday. |
| 22:03 | <&jerith> | Six years later I'm still getting email about this ticket: https://issues.jenkins-ci.org/browse/JENKINS-5318 |
| 22:04 | <&jerith> | (All the email is "I want this feature too".) |
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| --- Log closed Sat Apr 22 00:00:03 2017 |